Rapture Before Wrath

[iamlamad]

That would be because the wrath of God is not the tribulation. The tribulation is about what people do to other people, specifically what the wicked do to the faithful. Wrath is about what God does in judgement of the world. The two are different things using different words.

If I recall correctly the first Thessalonians chapter four passage speaks about the tribulation not about the wrath of God. The link between the passage in Matthew is the coming of the Lord with the sound of a trumpet - which is obviously not a secret coming if it is so noisy.

I also do not agree with the millenarian views he expresses nor with the dispensational views that many hold in this thread. It's one of life's joys that Christ will return for his faithful people and that the wickedness of demons and men will come to an end.

One minor problem with this post: it is not scriptural. The truth is, indeed, Satan is cast down with great wrath, and through the Beast brings the wrath of man against the saints - but at the same time, God is sending down judgment. It is simply impossible to separate the wrath of man from the wrath of God, since they both come at the same time.

John shows us God's wrath begins at the great earthquake of the 6th seal, then continues on through the trumpet judgments and finally the vial judgments - and even continues on to the time Jesus fights in the battle of Armageddon.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

There are millions of saints who will come to know The Lord after the rapture . These are the tribulation saints mentioned in rev 7, the great multitude . They are not part of the church .

I disagree with your view in 2 thess 2:3. I believe that the ' falling away' actually in the rapture in this verse. I have no time to explain why right now. But I will in another post.

Yes, he is speaking to believers !

What that really says is that the Day of the Lord (think wrath, darkness, destruction) cannot begin until FIRST the departing takes place - the gathering of the saints who by and through the Holy Spirit are restraining the revealing of the man of sin.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Then you don't believe Paul's words? Paul wrote to the Thessalonians:

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him,...

You don't think this is a direct and sure reference to the day of rapture?

Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day will not come] until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Does Paul not clearly say that the day (the day of rapture) will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed? If you believe these words of Paul mean pretty much exactly what they say, then how be it, that you can say that the rapture will come before these two events that Paul wrote of occur?

Yes, I do agree that the final 'seven' is not likely to be any different in its span of time than any of the other 69 'sevens'.

Yes, I agree that we are not 'waiting' on the Antichrist in anticipation of receiving any good thing from his hands, but Paul seems to be writing fairly clearly to me that he will have been revealed to us before the rapture comes. Was he not writing to believers? Is it your interpretation that he was telling us that all the rest of the world would see him revealed but not the believers? Why would he warn believers of something which he knew they would never see? That seems to me to be a pretty worthless warning. Why would he instruct them on the timing of the rapture with a 'sign' that they would never see? And how are they going to be raptured before the man of lawlessness is revealed and the day of rebellion comes, if the rapture is not going to come until after these two signs that they would never see? Can you offer up some reasonable explanation for this odd interpretation?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

A different translation makes a huge difference.
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day (the Day of the Lord - the day of destruction) will not come] until FIRST the departing [the gathering of the church (the one whom the Holy Spirit works through, restraining the man of sin from being revealed)] occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

 

[MoreCoffee]

One minor problem with this post: it is not scriptural.

It's easy to type that but you have yet to demonstrate it.

The truth is, indeed, Satan is cast down with great wrath, and through the Beast brings the wrath of man against the saints - but at the same time, God is sending down judgment. It is simply impossible to separate the wrath of man from the wrath of God, since they both come at the same time.

I don't see any biblical evidence for your stated claims. Is it because you forgot to include it or is it because you don't have any?

John shows us God's wrath begins at the great earthquake of the 6th seal, then continues on through the trumpet judgments and finally the vial judgments - and even continues on to the time Jesus fights in the battle of Armageddon.

LAMAD

You are assuming that the seals and whatever else is about a future event in history aren't you?

 

[NannaNae]

I am 100 sure there will be true christians taken and true christians left , this is for his purposes and his reason... there is things to do for his kingdom... None of his are subjected to HIS wrath... now that don't mean you wont be subjected to some freaked out stupid human stuff..
remember that " patient endurance on the part of the saints" thing fits right there


someone might ask what things are either group doing ?

...... I don't know what all of yours guys jobs , duties and objectives could be are yet.. I do got tiny clue what mine objective is supposed to be then . some taken some left for his reasons.
it ain't over for anyone until the 3 1/2 years of wrath is over.
both groups of christians who are taken and those left , have to keep their guard up especially if there has been no temple in jerusalem before that point and you are whisked away and you find yourself in a temple area... it ain't vacation Time yet!!!

because it is not over until the Marriage supper of the Lamb.... don't assume what that is and do read what that really is , you have to know what it is , don't let your guard down until it is all done! and he is all here and and all over it..

 

[dfw69]

Revelation 12:12 makes it clear that the trib is the wrath of Satan.

God's wrath is poured out on unbelievers after we are gathered on the last day of the trib. (John chapter 6) "I will raise him up at the last day."

Christ returns in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know him.
2nd Thess. chapter 1.

.

rapture before both wrath

 

[miamited]

A different translation makes a huge difference.
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day (the Day of the Lord - the day of destruction) will not come] until FIRST the departing [the gathering of the church (the one whom the Holy Spirit works through, restraining the man of sin from being revealed)] occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Hi iamlamad,

You do know that words in the Scriptures which are in parenthetical structure are set that way because those words are not found in the manuscripts, right? They are just there to either make a sentence flow properly in whatever language the translation is written in, which is the case when you will rarely see the word (is) or (the) or some other singular word added parenthetically to the text. The other case, such as this, is when the translators are trying to make sure that the reader understands what is being discussed.

Now, the translators who prepared the version which you are referring to chose to try and direct the reader to understand that the subject being discussed here was about 'destruction'. However, I believe Paul clearly identifies the day that he is writing about in the first sentence. He is speaking of the day when Jesus returns and we are gathered to him.

Personally, if I were using a translation such as yours which takes so much freedom as to put as much writing in parenthetical set asides, I'd want something that would not have quite so much of the translators thoughts and words appended to the Scriptures.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[MoreCoffee]

A different translation makes a huge difference.
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day (the Day of the Lord - the day of destruction) will not come] until FIRST the departing [the gathering of the church (the one whom the Holy Spirit works through, restraining the man of sin from being revealed)] occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Is the dark red text a translation or a gloss? all those extra words look more like inserted commentary than translation.

 

[MoreCoffee]

That passage from second Thessalonians ought to be read in context. Here it is as it reads in my bible.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 NJB

(1) About the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, brothers, and our being gathered to him:
(2) please do not be too easily thrown into confusion or alarmed by any manifestation of the Spirit or any statement or any letter claiming to come from us, suggesting that the Day of the Lord has already arrived.
(3) Never let anyone deceive you in any way. It cannot happen until the Great Revolt has taken place and there has appeared the wicked One, the lost One,
(4) the Enemy, who raises himself above every so-called God or object of worship to enthrone himself in God's sanctuary and flaunts the claim that he is God.
(5) Surely you remember my telling you about this when I was with you?
(6) And you know, too, what is still holding him back from appearing before his appointed time.
(7) The mystery of wickedness is already at work, but let him who is restraining it once be removed,
(8) and the wicked One will appear openly. The Lord will destroy him with the breath of his mouth and will annihilate him with his glorious appearance at his coming.
(9) But the coming of the wicked One will be marked by Satan being at work in all kinds of counterfeit miracles and signs and wonders,
(10) and every wicked deception aimed at those who are on the way to destruction because they would not accept the love of the truth and so be saved.
(11) And therefore God sends on them a power that deludes people so that they believe what is false,
(12) and so that those who do not believe the truth and take their pleasure in wickedness may all be condemned.​

 

[Danoh]

The context within any passage is always a sub-context ruled by a much larger, overall context.

Case in point: he asserts that he had related what he is referring to there to them when had been with them - he actually mentions a prior context by that.

Further, as Paul was in the habit of declaring things via a bit here, some.more over there, etc., his context is all that.

2 Thessalonians is either is second or third Epistle; Galatians possibly having been.his first, followed by 1 Thessalonians. He then writes the Corinthian Epistles, followed by Romans. And in Romans, he summarizes much of what those earlier Epistles consistently indicate had been the whole of his preaching even though Acts often does not bare all that preaching out, as Acts' narrative is written towards another purpose.

All this impacts whatever the context of 2 Thess., might, or might not be. Thus, it must be taken into account. For, in fact, there are glimpses here and there throughout them all as to what he is relating in 2 Thess.

Go back to Acts 17, where he first met the Thessalonians. Consider what he might have shared with them as to Daniel 9, in light of what Luke relates Paul had opened and alleged there, and that, out of the Scriptures, Acts 17:2.

What does Paul assert in his writings he had been asserting throughout Acts?

In short, let the Word dwell in you richly in all spiritual wisdom and understanding as to these issues, that you might, by that, believe as it is written over what, without that, you might end up concluding.

And then do all that again. And then again. And then...

As you do, you'll not only run into bits and pieces here and there, but its overall context begins to become yours. Keep asking "what principle appears to be in operation hear - keep asking that throughout. You'll be amazed at how much you pick up on through this. For that is how the Spirit communicates to our spirit His intended sense: through how holy men of God were moved by the Spirit as to how to communicate His intended sense - through how they used His Words.

"The Spirit of the LORD spake by md, and his word was on my tongue. The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me..." 2 Samuel 23: 2, 3.

That is what you hold in your hands - His Words, His intended sense through HOW He spoke them through the writers of Scripture.

"The word that came to Jerimiah from the LORD, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book," Jeremiah 30: 1, 2.

There's a reason why He instructed these men "Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:," Isaiah 30: 8.

That reason?

"In the year of his reign [Darius, v. 1] I Daniel understood by books the number of years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem," Daniel 9: 2.

The brother was "searching the Scriptures daily," Acts 17:11.

Not the commentaries, not his two cents, but "the word of the LORD."

Just some things to consider as to studying a thing "in its context."

 

[iamlamad]

It's easy to type that but you have yet to demonstrate it.I don't see any biblical evidence for your stated claims. Is it because you forgot to include it or is it because you don't have any?
You are assuming that the seals and whatever else is about a future event in history aren't you?

Just as you did before, you are making assumptions that are wrong. I take John at his word without question. He tells us when the wrath of God begins: at the 6th seal. I believe this. Then I see HIs wrath (the Day of the Lord IS the Day of His wrath) in every trumpet judgment. I see His wrath increasing as people refuse to repent. Finally, we are told His wrath is in the vials. Therefore we see God's wrath from chapter 6 all the way to 16 and we see Jesus' wrath at the battle of Armageddon in chapter 19.

Meanwhile we see Satan's wrath beginning in chapter 12 and continuing on until the Beast is captured.

It is therefore complete fallacy to attempt to separate these two, since they are concurrent, happening at the same time.

I think we are now between the 5th and 6th seals; the 5th being the martyrs of the church age, and the 6th being the start of the Day.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Is the dark red text a translation or a gloss? all those extra words look more like inserted commentary than translation.

Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day (the Day of the Lord - the day of destruction) will not come] until FIRST the departing [the gathering of the church (the one whom the Holy Spirit works through, restraining the man of sin from being revealed)] occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Call it Lamad's Amplified translation. I added commentary (just as the KJV added some words that it seems Paul left out) to help in understanding. However, I did take some of the first translations into English as my starting point.

I am convinced this is the meaning intended by Paul.

LAMAD

 

[miamited]

Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day (the Day of the Lord - the day of destruction) will not come] until FIRST the departing [the gathering of the church (the one whom the Holy Spirit works through, restraining the man of sin from being revealed)] occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Call it Lamad's Amplified translation. I added commentary (just as the KJV added some words that it seems Paul left out) to help in understanding. However, I did take some of the first translations into English as my starting point.

I am convinced this is the meaning intended by Paul.

LAMAD

Hi iamlamad,

Oh, I see. Well, fortunately or unfortunately, depending on one's understanding on this, I don't have an LAV so I guess I won't be able to understand the truth. While I'm thoroughly convinced that it is your understanding of Paul's intended meaning, the question still remains: Is it the correct understanding?

I've shared on these boards for a number of years and trust me I've come across a number of personal understandings that are different from mine and also different from others and the question is still: Is it the correct understanding.

Now, apparently you show that you make your understanding the correct understanding by 'adjusting' the text with added words that make it say what you want it to say. I'm not convinced that's the way to rightly divide the word.

As I've written, the plain text says:

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day will not come] until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

If we refrain from adding any colorful play by play, Paul starts off by writing: 'This what I'm writing about. The coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him.' Then he continues on to explain to the believers, because apparently they were having similar conversations as ours, a couple of 'signs' that would let us know that the time is at hand. It seems that they, too, were discussing when the Lord would be returning. They were thrown into confusion as whether he had come or was very soon coming to get them. Paul stops them and says, 'Look, here's when you need to start looking for the Lord's return. When you see the lawless one that the Lord described as the abomination that brings desolation and there is a great rebellion against God, then will the Lord's coming be fast approaching.

Yes, he explains to them that he has touched on this subject before, but apparently many had forgotten or failed to heed his instruction on this matter. Because of that, they were getting into these debates and discussions about the Lord's coming. Paul wrote this particular passage of his letter to remind them and to clear up the issue again. He repeats again that the lawless one will be revealed and says that he is the one that Jesus will overthrow and destroy him. No times or dates of how long this lawless one will continue his reign of terror, but it is the sign to us that the Lord's coming is very, very close. Now, close could be 60 days or 5 years. But, it seems clear to me, without all of the colorful commentary, that the believers will still be on the earth when the lawless one rises up and attempts to set himself above the throne of God. The believers will be on the earth suffering under the persecution of the days of the great tribulation that follow his ascending. But we, the believers, should take comfort and solace when these tribulations come to us and the persecution of our faith, that the time for our being gathered to the Lord is quite close at hand.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[iamlamad]

Hi iamlamad,

Oh, I see. Well, fortunately or unfortunately, depending on one's understanding on this, I don't have an LAV so I guess I won't be able to understand the truth. While I'm thoroughly convinced that it is your understanding of Paul's intended meaning, the question still remains: Is it the correct understanding?

...

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day will not come] until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
...

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Ted, this is a passage that will not be understood with a first reading.

First we must understand that what Paul actually wrote was:

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for - except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"

Most translators added some text - and we can only guess that their added text was Paul's meaning. In fact, I suspect it is. They tipically add: "that Day will not come". WHAT day? What day did Paul just mention? From your text: "the day of the Lord has already come" So Paul was referring back to the "Day of the Lord." However, some Greek texts have it as "the Day of Christ." Which is correct? We don't know. Neither do we know, in Paul's mind, if there was a difference. Already we can see that this text is really ambiguous and not the best text for doctrine.

Next, we MUST understand that the THEME of this passage is the gathering.

(Amplified) 1 BUT RELATIVE to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and our gathering together to [meet] Him, we beg you, brethren,

Therefore, the CORRECT theory of what Paul is telling us MUST include the gathering.

Now let's get into verse 3:
I like NASB. "IT" that is the day of the Lord "Will NOT COME Unless the apostasy comes first," so that the man of sin can be revealed.

But the real question here is, what did Paul mean by the Greek word "Apostasia?" Many people puzzle over it, yet there is no need, because in three parallel verses Paul clearly tells us. Notice in this very verse, SOMETHING must occur FIRST, before the man of sin can be revealed. Look VERY CLOSE: only ONE THING comes FIRST:

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, (KJV)

3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first (ESV)

3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first (NASB)

3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first (HCSB)

3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first (ASV)

3 Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first (DRB)

3 let not any one deceive you in any manner, because -- if the falling away may not come first (YLT)

So there is only ONE THING that must come first. And that one thing is hidden in Paul's use of the word Apostasia. Then, AFTER that one thing, the apostasia, then the man of sin can be revealed.

Now verse 6: And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.

Notice:

(NIV)6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.

(NASB) 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

(ESV) 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.

(ASV) 6 And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.

(HCSB) 6 And you know what currently restrains [him], so that he will be revealed in his time.

(Young's Literal) 6 and now, what is keeping down ye have known, for his being revealed in his own time,

(Peshitta - Lamsa) 6 And now you know what has prevented him from being revealed in his time.

A beginning reader could understand the two parts to this sentence: first, there is something holding back, restraining, holding down, the man of sin from being revealed, and then at the proper time he will be revealed. After reading this we are SUPPOSE TO KNOW who and what the restrainer is, who or what is holding him back, and preventing him from being revealed until his time, for Paul wrote, "and NOW you know."

Paul wanted us to KNOW so much, he basically wrote it yet again. Something is restraining or holding back, until such time as the restraining is removed or taken out of the way, and THEN the man of sin will be removed.

(ASV)7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only [there is] one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall be revealed the lawless one, ...

(NASB) 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed ...

(Green's Literal) For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until it comes out of the midst.
8 And then "the Lawless One" will be revealed, ...

(Peshitta - Lamsa) 7 For the mystery of iniquity is already at work: until he who now is the obstacle be taken out of the way.
8 Then shall the Wicked be exposed, ...

(The Emphasized Bible) 7 For, the secret, of lawlessness, already, is inwardly working itself, - only, until, he that restraineth at present, shall be gone, out of the midst:
8 And, then, shall be revealed the lawless one,

Again, ANY beginning reader would be able to understand that the restraining force or the one holding back or the one being an obstacle to the revealing, is going to be taken out of the way, removed, gone out of the midst. And AFTER that happens, THEN the man of sin can and will be revealed.

Verses 6-8 are written in simple language, easy to understand. It is written very plainly, and all translations give us the same idea. Now we have seen many times in a row with the different translations, that there is a restraining force holding the man of sin down, and PREVENTING his revealing. And we know that the restrainer will be taken out of the way, or removed, or departed out of the midst FIRST, BEFORE the man of sin can be revealed.

Now, back to us KNOWING: Paul wrote "And NOW YOU KNOW."
WHY did Paul write this? Because HE JUST TOLD US who the restrainer was. He wrote: "And Now You Know," in verse 6, so if we back up verse by verse and look for something "taken out of the way," we will KNOW - beyond any doubt - WHO the restrainer is.

WE find NOTHING "taken out of the way" in verse 5, nothing in verse 4. But consider verse 3: I used your own verse, but modified it by using the Greek word and added "first":

Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day will not come] until the [apostasia] occurs [first] and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Notice this verse carefully, then answer the question: is the man of sin revealed at the end of this verse? Most certainly he is! "IS revealed." Check this out in many other translations: many say the same thing: after verse 3a is finished, then in 3b the man if sin IS REVEALED and Paul goes on to say what he will do when he is revealed.

Therefore simple logic tells us that in the first part of this verse the one restraining is "TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY." It can be no other way, for Paul told is twice, once in verse 6 and again in verses 7 & 8 that the man of sin cannot be revealed until the one restraining is taken out of the way, yet in 3b he is certainly now revealed.

Remember, we have just seen many times the restrainer mentioned, then the man of sin revealed in different translations. We have seen several times the restrainer mentioned, and then the restrainer REMOVED, DEPARTED and then the man of sin revealed. We know that the revealing CANNOT HAPPEN until the restrainer or holder downer, is GONE out of the midst or taken out of the way.

Here is where Paul TELLS US WHO.

"Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasia comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction"

Now, we have just seen many verses telling us what must come first: it is the REMOVAL or DEPARTURE of the one restraining. Therefore, this word "apostasia" MUST carry the meaning of something "taken out of the way," or something departed or something gone out of the midst. Now, look again at one of the FIRST English translations:

Geneva Bible: 1587
3 Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

This translation fits PERFECTLY with all the previous verses shown in MANY translations. It tells us WHAT or WHO is removed out of the way, or taken out of the midst. It is the GATHERING, the rapture of the church.

Therefore, DON'T EVER think we don't know who the restrainer is, for Paul wrote, AND NOW YOU KNOW!

We could also say it this way:

Verses 3-5 above provide a description of the order of events:
1. The removal of the Church
2. The revealing of the antichrist
3. The antichrist presenting himself as God
And then again in verses 6-8:
1. The Church is holding the antichrist back, though he is still at work now
2. He is to be revealed in the right time
3. The One who holds him back (the Church) is taken out of the way
4. The lawless one (antichrist) is revealed
5. The Lord returns to destroy the antichrist (Second Coming)

When using the word "departing" in verse 3 above, the subsequent verses coincide and restate the same events. We have three similar statements on the removal of the Church first, and then the revealing of the antichrist.

Paul speaks of the day of the Lord, giving two signs to look for to KNOW one is IN the day of the Lord. We know from other scriptures that the man of sin will be revealed for who he really is, at the abomination - right? Well, that is well INTO the day of the Lord. So we can say that is one of Paul's two events that MUST take place: To know for sure that the day of the Lord has come, the man of son MUST be revealed, i.e., the abomination must have taken place.

BUT WAIT: Paul ALSO said that there is something RESTRAINING or holding back the Antichrist, PREVENTING him from being revealed:

2 Thes 2 (NASB)
7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8Then that lawless one will be revealed....

So we KNOW that the abomination cannot happen until the one who restrains is TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY.

In fact, Paul has three parallel verses, where something is happening and then the Antichrist is revealed: Verses 7 and 8 are one of them;

3) verses 7-8: restrainer removed;
THEN the lawless one will be revealed

2) Verse 6: And you know what restrains him now,
so that in his time he will be revealed

1) Verse 3: ... if the [apostasia]* may not come first,
and the man of sin be revealed...

Take a CLOSE look at these three parallel sentences: YOu see the revealing is the second part of each - right?

In verses 7-8 and in verse 6, the first part of the verse is the restrainer.
Would it not make GOOD SENSE then, that the word "Apostasia" must then also be speaking of the restrainer? Indeed, it certainly is.

Now notice how Paul started his verse 6 (NKJV)
6 And now you know what is restraining,

WAIT!!! HOW would we know? Why would Paul write, "NOW YOU KNOW?" Well, one good reason to write these words is that PAUL JUST TOLD US! The answer is in verse three. THAT IS WHERE Paul told us WHO the restrainer is. It is one of our parallel verses: (NKJV)

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the [apostasia]* comes first, and the man of sin is revealed,

*I replaced the other words with the Greek word they were translated from, because they tend to confuse what Paul was really saying:

Paul is telling us plainly that the restrainer, the one who will be "taken out of the way" or removed, is IN that word, Apostasia. Now, read that same verse the way the first English translations wrote it:

Geneva Bible:
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

Is a "departing" a "taking out of the way?" In my mind it certainly is.

We MUST NOT forget, the THEME of this whole passage was the "gathering!" So this fits the theme perfectly. Paul is telling us that the departure (the gathering) MUST come first, removing the restraining force, and THEN the man of sin can be revealed.

If we examine the Greek compound word "apostasia" it can most certainly mean some people removed from the whole from where they were "standing" (Greek stasia - where we get "stationary" as in an engine not moving) and taken somewhere else.

It is either this, or one must conclude that a falling away allows the man of sin to be revealed. This does not agree very well with "taken out of the way." However, the rapture agrees perfectly with something "taken out of the way."

LAMAD

 

[bibletruth469]

Good research Lamad ! I agree. The Greek word ' apostasia ' means departure. I also believe this passage of scripture can be interpreted as the catching away' rapture' of the church.

 

[Danoh]

Lamad, have you considered another event that also precedes the revealing of the man of sin after the Rapture?

 

[n2thelight]

iamlamad

But the real question here is, what did Paul mean by the Greek word "Apostasia?" Many people puzzle over it, yet there is no need, because in three parallel verses Paul clearly tells us. Notice in this very verse, SOMETHING must occur FIRST, before the man of sin can be revealed. Look VERY CLOSE: only ONE THING comes FIRST:

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

The subject of this letter is; "our gathering back to Christ".

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is [the Lord is just] at hand."

Why would Paul warn us about when the Day of Christ is,if we're not going to be here....Makes no sense.....

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Again,how can one be deceived,if they're not here?Also so,ask yourself,what is the deception

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].

Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, but the saints of Christ will not be gathered to Him until the "son of perdition" [Satan] be revealed first. How will we know who he is when he arrives?

Revelation 17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is [shall come]."
This beast "thou [John] sawest", was in the first earth age; and is not on this earth now, as it is written in Revelation 12:7. Satan is in heaven being our accuser, and will be cast out to this earth very shortly by Michael.

"And shall ascend out of the bottomless pit; and go into perdition;" Who is he again? He is Satan the Antichrist. Satan is not a man born of woman, but a "supernatural arch angel". In Ezekiel 28 it is written that Satan [Lucifer] is the most beautiful of all God's created beings.

In Isaiah 14:12; "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lu'-ci-fer [day star], son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!" Lucifer then is another name for Satan; he is also called the Dragon, the serpent, and many other names accounting for the roles he plays, and in our generation he will also be called the "Antichrist".

Isaiah 14:13; "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"

Satan is saying, I'm going to be God, and be above the sons [stars] of God. The "mount of the congregation" is on mount Zion; and that is "the side of the north" where Jesus Christ's temple will be.

Isaiah 14:14; "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." Satan is saying again, he is going to be God.

Isaiah 14:15; "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell [sheol], to the sides of the pit."

Who is this that is going into the pit? Who is this son of perdition? It is Lucifer, who is Satan, the "son of perdition". The "son of perdition" of II Thessalonians 2:3 is none other than Satan himself, coming to earth to play the role of Jesus Christ. Paul then is saying that the true Christ, Jesus Christ, will not return to earth until this "apostasy" takes place first.

Isaiah 14:16; "They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"
Following Jesus Christ's return to earth, and when the Antichrist [Satan] is safely in the pit; the world will wonder; how could Satan have shook all the kingdoms? They simply can't believe that they were deceived into believing this man to be God.

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

The "Son of perdition" is Satan and Isaiah just told us this very same thing. Remember, the temple of God is on mount Zion, and "on the side of the North". This person sitting there is sitting in God's seat, pretending to be God: "Showing himself that he is God."

Do you know what Jesus said about this very thing. Jesus called it in Matthew 24:15, the very same thing that Daniel called it in Daniel 9:27; "the Abomination of desolation". A more correct translation in the "James Moffatt translation Bible" is called "The abomination by the desolator".

"Satan claiming to be God" is the abomination, and "he" [Satan] is the desolator, for the entire world will believe him; except for God's elect, and all those who have the seal of God in their minds [foreheads]. The sealed of God have their gospel armor on, and they are ready to face Satan and his system in the spiritual warfare.
Does the "rapture theory" still look inviting to you? If it does, friend, your in a heap of trouble. This is not me talking, but Paul; for he is warning you to be watching out for the Antichrist, for he is a copy of exactly what you expect of Christ. The Antichrist [Satan] will have supernatural powers, and he will come first, before our Lord Jesus Christ.

II Thessalonians 2:5 "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

II Thessalonians 2:6 "And now ye know what withholdeth [that which restraineth to the end] that he might be revealed in his time [own season]."

The subject here is "the son of perdition", Satan, the Antichrist, or what ever name you desire to use for him. He is Satan, and Satan will commit the "abomination of desolation" of Daniel 9:27; and the church will be here to see it, because the "gathering", or Christ's return follows this.

II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9].
"Out of the way", in the Greek is "out of ek", or "the midst". It is the same expression used in Acts 17:33, and I Corinthians 5:2.

Many "rapture theorists" claim this one who "letteth" is the Holy Spirit, and they claim that when He is "taken away", then the Antichrist will come. By reversing the role of the characters in the verses here, and attributing what is Satan's to the Holy Spirit, you have a whole new doctrine called the "Any moment doctrine". This false doctrine is better known as the "rapture theory". It is dangerous to play around with a foreign language; and when the flock relies upon their shepherd for the truth, and the shepherd is assumed to be correct; in ignorance it is accepted just because he said it.

It is Michael who "holds fast" on to Lucifer [the Antichrist], and Michael will continue to keep Lucifer held until the appointed time, spoken of above. That time is appointed by God. Then at the appointed time God will give Satan the keys [authority] to release his fallen angels and they will be cast to the earth [see Revelation 9:1-10]. Let's take a look at the one [Michael] who holds on to Satan now.

Revelation 12:7; "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," Michael [that is who the "he" is in II Thessalonians 2:7 and his [Michael's] angels fought against the dragon [another name for Satan] and his [Satan's] fallen angels.

Revelation 12:8; "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." This war took place in heaven, and that is where Satan and his angels are now; though Satan's spirit, and demonic spirits are all over the earth today. Now we will see what Michael does with Satan, in fulfilling II Thessalonians 2:7.

Revelation 12:9; "And the great dragon [Satan] was cast out [that is the transitive verb of verse seven], that old serpent [this is the role Satan played in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world [except for God's elect]: he was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
This is when Satan will physically appear on earth as a man with his angels. This is the time of the Antichrist's coming, and we must know when this time is by when these events takes place, for Satan comes at the sixth trumpet.

Then the verse picks up where Satan is standing in the holy place. Satan's object is to deceive all the world, and have the world take his markings in their minds. God's Word thus says that Satan will come to earth and stand in that Holy place, before Christ will come and gather anyone back to Himself.

II Thessalonians 2:8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, Whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit [breath] of his mouth, and shall destroy [bring to naught] with the brightness [manifestation] of his coming:"

"The wicked" is better translated, "wicked one": What comes out of the Lord's mouth? It is the Truth. That is also the Word that God put in the mouth of Paul in this writing. Satan shall then be destroyed after being cast out, and also after standing in the holy place. After this is the time of Jesus Christ coming and gathering of His saints. There is no "anytime doctrine" here. It is in the course of certain events, and God lets us know clearly the order of these events, and exactly what to expect. In Matthew 24:15 Jesus is saying exactly what Paul is saying, Satan will come first and reign before the gathering of the saints.


Then Christ will destroy Satan.

 

[n2thelight]

Rapture Before Wrath
There are several verses contained within the scripture that show that the rapture will occur before the wrath or the tribulation period. First of all, let's look at Titus 2:13. It states, " Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and savior Jesus Christ". We Christian believers are not looking for wrath, but as this verse states, we are looking for His glorious appearing to us which will take place at the rapture.

Our gathering happens at the same time as His wrath,the problem is many mistake His wrath for tribulation,yet they are totally different...Yes we will escape His wrath,however we shall not escape the tribulation that shall come upon the entire earth,which is the tribulation of satan....

So the question should be what is tribulation...Scripture is clear as to Christians going through tribulation,it's been happening all throughout the Bible

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?


Romans 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;


2 Corinthians 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.


2 Corinthians 7:4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.


Ephesians 3:13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.


1 Thessalonians 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.


2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Matthew 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.


Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

In the above verses,all I see are Christians being told to endure tribulations,how then do you all (rapturist)feel you shall escape it?Nowehere in scripture is it said that Christians escape tribulations,if I'm wrong,please show me the verse............

Now let's look at His wrath

Revelation 6:16 "And said to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

Revelation 6:17 "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"


What day is His wrath,simple,same as the Day of the Lord,ie,His 2nd coming

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

The 7th trump starts the Day of the Lord,again His 2nd coming

Revelation 11:18 "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

The fact is God's wrath comes after the tribulation,as they are not the same,so my question is,why do you all (rapturist)think you shall escape the tribulation????

 

[iamlamad]

Lamad, have you considered another event that also precedes the revealing of the man of sin after the Rapture?

Please fill us in; don't keep us in suspense!

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

N2thelight wrote;
II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

The subject of this letter is; "our gathering back to Christ".

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is [the Lord is just] at hand."

Why would Paul warn us about when the Day of Christ is,if we're not going to be here....Makes no sense.....

Certainly it makes sense. They had been correctly taught by Paul that the rapture would take place first, before the Day of the Lord. Then along came some false teachers telling them they were already IN the day of the Lord - it had already begun and they were in it. So what were they thinking? Probably that either they had missed the rapture, or Paul had taught them wrong doctrine. Perhaps they even thought that Paul had been caught up and they were left behind. This is exactly the way it will be when the real pretrib rapture takes place and many are left behind. They will be greatly upset - just as these were.

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Again,how can one be deceived,if they're not here?Also so,ask yourself,what is the deception

They were still here and Paul was answering their question. The way Paul chose to answer is to explain in detail how to know when the REAL Day of the Lord comes. First the departure or apostasia must take place so the one restraining the revealing can be "taken out of the way," and then the man of sin be revealed."

The truth is, for those caught up in the rapture, they will not see the rest of Revelation until they return WITH HIM. So for the most part, this passage will be for those left behind. However, if someone today begins to think they are IN the Day of the Lord, Paul's argument will help them see they are not, for the departing has not happened and the man of sin is still here.

Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, but the saints of Christ will not be gathered to Him until the "son of perdition" [Satan] be revealed first. How will we know who he is when he arrives?

This is false doctrine. Paul is clear in what must come first: so why did you change what Paul taught and end up in error? Why do you say the Beast of Revelation is Satan? That is more false doctrine.

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, (KJV)

3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first (ESV)

3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first (NASB)

3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first (HCSB)

3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first (ASV)

3 Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first (DRB)

3 let not any one deceive you in any manner, because -- if the falling away may not come first (YLT)

So WHAT must come first? Paul tells us that the apostasia - the departure - must come first. And this is exactly what Paul teaches in his first letter: the rapture will be the trigger for the DAY. Of course Jesus will COME for the rapture, but only to the sky.

Paul wrote of his "revealing." Those left behind will know him when he enters the temple and declares that he is God and must be worshiped. The "beast" of Revelation 13 is NOT SATAN. He will be a MAN.

Why do you persist in false doctrine? Did you not read that the Beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire BEFORE Satan is bound for a thousand years? They absolutely cannot be one and the same entity. That theory is not only false doctrine, it is goofy doctrine.

This is when Satan will physically appear on earth as a man with his angels. This is the time of the Antichrist's coming, and we must know when this time is by when these events takes place, for Satan comes at the sixth trumpet.

MORE false doctrine. Satan is a spirit WITHOUT a physical body and cannot and will not appear as a man - EVER. However, there is little doubt he will POSSESS the man of sin. This will not make the man the devil, nor the devil the man.

And you are wrong yet again: it will be the 7th trumpet that signals Michael to go after Satan to cast him down.


Our gathering happens at the same time as His wrath,the problem is many mistake His wrath for tribulation,yet they are totally different...Yes we will escape His wrath,however we shall not escape the tribulation that shall come upon the entire earth,which is the tribulation of satan....

MORE GOOFY DOCTRINE. God's wrath begins at the 6th seal, and continues all through the week, first with the trumpet judgments and then into the vial judgments. Satan is cast down at the 7th trumpet which marks the midpoint of the week, so from that point on, all through the second half of the week, people on earth will be experiencing Both God's wrath in the vials and Satan's wrath in the days of GT. These two wraths are CONCURRENT and it is impossible to separate them. When people are hiding from the Beast in fear of losing their head, and the heat of the sun is cranking up, and the water has turned to blood, HOW can anyone think they are avoiding either God's wrath or Satan's wrath? It will be impossible to avoid either.

Our gathering will be the TRIGGER for His wrath. The trigger always comes before the boom, so you are wrong yet again.

In the above verses,all I see are Christians being told to endure tribulations,how then do you all (rapturist)feel you shall escape it? Nowehere in scripture is it said that Christians escape tribulations,if I'm wrong,please show me the verse............

You have been shown many times - and ignore it every time, wishing to stay in your false doctrine. You ERR in comparing the days of GT spoken of by Jesus with ANY OTHER period of tribulation. May I suggest that you came out on Luke 21:36 until you understand it?

What day is His wrath,simple,same as the Day of the Lord,ie,His 2nd coming

FALSE DOCTRINE! There is NO VERSE ANYWHERE that tells us His wrath will happen the same moment He comes. There is no verse anywhere telling us that His wrath must wait for His coming on the white horse. On the contrary, John shows us His wrath beginning at the 6th seal, at least 7 plus years before He comes on the white horse.

HOWEVER, He will come before the trib to the air, and rapture those found worthy, and raise the dead in Christ. That raising of the dead in Christ will cause a great earthquake, which is Paul's sudden destruction and which is the beginning of the Day of His wrath - as seen at the 6th seal. Therefore His PRETRIB coming will be the TRIGGER For the start of the Day of His wrath.

Lamad