Rapture Before Wrath

[Bro in Christ]

Revelation Chapter 6 is a preview or summary of thing that come later.

When Christ returns there is a great earthquake when he sets foot on the Mount of Olives. The rich and mighty hide themselves from the wrath of Christ at His Second Coming when He returns in flaming fire and pours out his wrath on the ungodly.

2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.


Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Two different earthquakes

 

[n2thelight]

This is the beginning of 7 years of judgement . The first 1260 days or 3 1/2 years

Can't be the beginning

Revelation 6:17 "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

This is the Day of the Lord

 

[BABerean2]

Two different earthquakes

Can you back up your opinion with scripture?

 

[Bible2]

MyLordMySavior said in post 412:

I hope for a pre-trib rapture more than the post-trib.

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

MyLordMySavior said in post 412:

Why would God allow this to happen to the people He loves! Where's the mercy?

The tribulation's purpose with regard to the righteous church in all nations having to suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6) could be the same as the purpose of righteous Job having to go through his suffering at the hands of Satan (Job chapters 1-2), and the purpose of, for example, the righteous, literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) having to suffer and die in a 1st century AD persecution (Revelation 2:10).

MyLordMySavior said in post 412:

God saved Noah and His family from the Flood, why wouldn't He save us from the awful judgement the world deserves.

Note that he will, but this still doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41 refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed by God, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath of God (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

 

[TPeterY]

Can you back up your opinion with scripture?

Matthew 24:7 (NKJV)
For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.

Earthquakes and places are plural.




.

 

[BABerean2]

Matthew 24:7 (NKJV)
For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.

Earthquakes and places are plural.




.

The earthquake in my last post was not plural.

 

[iamlamad]

Yes, a pre-wrath rapture is my take _ at the last trumpet (which #7 in the series). But that does not mean we won't have to endure the first six trumpets. These are the last trumpets sounding the alarm, testing those who have faith and giving the final warnings to the rest.

"Blow a trumpet in Zion,
And sound an alarm in my holy mountain:
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble:
For the day of the Lord IS COMING,
For it is at hand: A day of darkness and gloominess,
A day of clouds and thick darkness,
Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains.
A people come great and strong,
The like of whom has never been;
Nor will there ever be any such after them.
Even for many successive generations.
A fire devours before them,
And behind them a flame burns;
The land is like the Garden of Eden before them,
And behind them a desolate wilderness;
Surely nothing shall escape them ...
The earth quakes before them, the heavens tremble;
The sun and moon grow dark, and the stars diminish their brightness."
Joel 2:1-3, 10

This prewrath theory is pretty much myth. Yes, indeed God is prewrath and the rapture will be prewrath, but God's wrath is seen before the 70th week begins, at the 6th seal earthquake, with the 70th week beginning with the 7th seal. Since the trumpets follow the 7th seal, no believer that is ready and watching for Jesus pretrib coming will see the trumpet judgments, for they will be caught up. Always remember, John saw the raptured church in heaven, BEFORE the 7th seal that begins the 70th week.

The truth is, the rapture WILL BE prewrath, but it will also be pretrib....the "trib" being the 70th week of Daniel.

Notice that John does not get to the days of GT that Jesus spoke of until AFTER chapters 13 & 14. By then the false prophet will have shown up, the mark and image set up, and people being put to death because they refuse the mark. Notice that those days of great tribulation come LONG after the 6th seal and the church seen in heaven in chapter 7.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

You just terrified me. I've read the Bible. I LOVE God. I try my best, even though I suck at it and fail at being a Christian, I still keep trying over and over again.

I've read the Revelations multiple times, and it's so incredibly confusing, I don't know what to believe. I know of things that will happen, I just don't understand the when and who parts. I hope that God will be merciful and take us away before He passes his Judgement on to the world, but so many Christians argue with each other over this, it scares me. My biggest fear is believing something not ttrue that is why I believe strictly what the Bible says...because it's truly the only words I can trust with my heart & soul.

Now, I hope for a pre-trib rapture more than the post-trib. Both uses scripture to support their claim, but obviously someone is misconstruing it, but I don't know who! It's so incredibly confusing, and I'm not Bible Scholar! I'll never know everything, but gosh do I try to keep learning.

And the fact that you say, that those who believe pre-trib will go to worship Satan!!!! WHAT!!!!!! No!!!! I don't believe this because if they will be deceived, who knows what will happen to me!!! Why would God allow this to happen to the people He loves! Where's the mercy? God saved Noah and His family from the Flood, why wouldn't He save us from the awful judgement the world deserves.

I'm not smart enough to understand revelations. I honestly don't think I can believe anyone unless God Himself told me in simple stupid terms. But with how sucky and awful the world is today, it makes me feel like the End is near. I'm running out of time to understand if it really is that easy to deceive the world :'(.

DON'T EVER SAY you are not smart enough! God did not wish to make this confusing! It is a "revealing," not a "confusing."

Truthfully, if someone knows the character of our loving Father, they should know without even reading the book that such a Father would not wish for His Bride to suffer His own wrath. What kind of loving husband would EVER allow His bride to be dying of thirst, starving with hunger, then threatened with losing their head if the refuse to worship an image and take a mark, when they KNOW accepting the mark will doom them to eternal separation from their "husband?"

Can you even imagine our Heavenly Father telling His bride:

Bride, I love you with an unending love, and one day I will come for you - that is come for any who survive. But first, before I come, You must see and feel my anger. I will take away any water for you to drink, I will make it impossible for you to buy food or water, I will send people after you that want to take your head off...in fact, most of you, if not all, will be overcome and lose your head. But, if any does survive, I will surely come for you AFTER all this torture. You see, I want to test you - to see if you really do love me and are worthy to spend eternity with me. Just don't forget, I love you!"

What earthly husband who truly loves his wife would EVER do such a thing? It is silly to the extreme to even think such a thing of Our Father.

Remember back to the days of Noah. There God repented of every creating man, and determined to destroy man from the earth - that is all but the one family he found righteous: Noah and his family. Notice that Noah did not suffer under God's wrath, but was taken out by way of the ARK.

Remember Lot. Before God could destroy the city he lived in, FIRST he had to remove Lot from the city.

If you will study and pray in the Spirit, and mediate on the scriptures, God will reveal the truth. First you should know that ONLY PAUL received any revelation of the rapture of the church. The church at the time of Matthew 24 was still hidden in the mind of the Father. Jesus was not speaking of the church at all, but of the end of the JEWISH AGE, that is the 70th week of Daniel. If you go back and study Daniel 9, you will find the 70th week is FOR THE PEOPLE OF DANIEL, the Jews and Hebrews.

Don't be misled that just because God does a "gathering," it MUST BE Paul's rapture. There will be OTHER gatherings. When you read of a gathering, study to see WHERE this gathering comes from. Paul's rapture will gather from under the earth (those dead in Christ) and on the earth (those who are alive and remain). There are other gathering mentioned which gather from heaven. How could that possibly be Paul's rapture which will gather from the earth?

Next, study diligently 1 Thes; 5, for there Paul gives us the TIMING of the rapture. He tells us there will be a SUDDENLY: a sudden event at a time of peace and safety. (A day just like today.) At this sudden event - Paul's rapture - two groups of people get two different results: those who are IN CHRIST, will get raptured and get to "live together with Him," but all the rest will get "sudden destruction." That sudden destruction is the very same worldwide earthquake we see at the 6th seal. NO ONE left behind will escape this earthquake, for it will be felt around the world. Many will live through it, but they will KNOW it is the wrath of God beginning, exactly what John writes in Rev. 6. Paul then tells us that God will not make an appointment for His bride with this wrath, for God will REMOVE His bride before this worldwide earthquake comes. Therefore, REST ASSURED (Have hope!) that the rapture will come BEFORE this great earthquake that begins God's wrath. This IS the churches "blessed hope."

Notice the great crowd seen around the throne in heaven in chapter 7 of Revelation. In spite of what others may say, REST ASSURED that John saw the raptured church before the 7th seal opens the 70th week or "trib." See it? The church is seen in heaven BEFORE the 70th week, and LONG before (over 3 1/2 years before) the Antichrist Beast gets his image and mark established - so before those days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of.

You should understand that there is great tribulation going on today in many parts of the world: people being put to death because they love Jesus and not Mohammad. But these are NOT the days of GT Jesus spoke of. Those days will not begin in Revelation until AFTER chapter 14.

Next, understand that Jesus was not trying to confuse us in Revelation. In spite of all you read or hear, God gave the visions to John and John wrote them in the EXACT ORDER these things will happen. In other words, what you read in chapter 13 will MOST CERTAIN come after things you read in previous chapters. Since what we read in chapters 8 onward are what was written INSIDE the rolled up scroll or "book," you should understand the truth: NO TRUMPET will be sounded until all 7 seals are opened so that the scroll can be unrolled and read. In like manner, NO VIAL will be poured out until all 7 trumpets are sounded.

One thing that does complicate Revelation is that John wrote some parenthesis, but did not have the neat marks we have (marks like these that show where a parenthesis is) so we must discover parenthesis by diligent study. One example is Rev. 12:1-5. John is at the exact midpoint of the week in his narrative here, but these 5 verses are about the birth of Christ, which took place LONG before. Why did God put those five verses there? I will tell you exactly what God said to me. Yes, I heard His voice and His words:

"Chapter 12 is Me introducing John to the dragon and in particular what the Dragon will be doing during the second half of the week. Count how many times the Dragon is mentioned, including the pronouns." [I counted 32 if I remember right]." "I also chose to show John what the dragon DID when I was born. The first five verses were a 'history lesson' for John."

So these verses are written as a parenthesis and are NOT in any way a part of John's chronology. Next, understand that sometimes John included "history lessons," or events of the past. The vision of the throne room, chapters 4 & 5 are also a history lesson. John was looking back in time to a time JUST BEFORE Jesus rose from the dead and then ascended into the throne room. If you notice, John got to see the moment Jesus got into the throne room, after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. This throne room vision sets the CONTEXT of the first seals. They were broken or opened the moment Jesus got back into the throne room, after dying, then rising from the dead. So the first seals were opened around 32 AD. They were involving the early church, and the Dragon's [Satan's] attempts to stop the advance of the church.

So read this book like you would read a history book. God is good at writing the future as if it was history! BELIEVE it is written in the correct order. Don't believe anything to the contrary!

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

BABarean2 wrote;
According to Rev. 12:12 the tribulation is Satan's wrath. God's wrath will be poured out on unbelievers after we are gathered at the 7th trumpet. Based on Romans 5:9 and 1st Thess. 5:9 Christ took our part of God's wrath, at the cross.

There is little or no truth in the above statement. "The tribulation" - or more correctly Daniel's 70th week, is a 7 year period of time in which God's wrath is felt throughout the ENTIRE week, but Satan's wrath is felt ONLY after he is defeated and kicked down to earth, at the midpoint of the week. So during the last half of the week, God is angry and Satan is angry, and BOTH are pouring out their wrath AT THE SAME TIME.

Next, THERE IS NO GATHERING at the 7th trumpet. That is MYTH. Paul's gathering will be just before the 6th seal, and the gathering Jesus spoke of will be in Rev. 19 as Jesus returns to earth to fight Armageddon. Indeed, Paul wrote that God will not make an appointment for His kids to suffer His wrath. In saying that, Paul is showing us that we get RAPTURED just before God's wrath begins, at the earthquake of the 6th seal, and before the 7th seal that opens the 70th week. Paul's rapture is CLEARLY pretrib. That is because GOD IS PRETRIB.

LAMAD

 

[Bro in Christ]

Can you back up your opinion with scripture?

Rev 6:12-14 sky is red , every mountain and island move

Rev 16:18-20 no more islands and no more mountains
Yet in rev 16:10 everything is complete darkness

Look at differences

 

[iamlamad]

BABarean2 wrote,
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

NOte that he underlined part of this, as if this scripture backs up his false doctrine.

ACtually, this is a very poor translation that gives a wrong impression.

Geneva Bible
1. Nowe we beseech you, brethren, by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ, and by our assembling vnto him,
2. That ye be not suddenly mooued from your minde, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by worde, nor by letter, as it were from vs, as though the day of Christ were at hand.
3. et no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,
4. Which is an aduersarie, and exalteth him selfe against all that is called God, or that is worshipped: so that he doeth sit as God in the Temple of God, shewing him selfe that he is God.
5. Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I tolde you these things?

If we read the CONTEXT, we find there is someone PREVENTING the revealing of the man of sin, but this someone will be "taken out of the way." NOte carefully that Paul tells us twice, verse 6 and verses 7 & 8, that the man of sin cannot be revealed until this one restraining is taken out of the way, and once he IS taken out of the way, THEN the man of sin will be revealed.

Now look carefully at verse 3:

. et no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

Is the man now revealed (disclosed) in Paul's argument? OF COURSE he is. Paul tell tells us what he will do once his is revealed. Therefore in the FIRST part of verse three, the one restraining or preventing MUST BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. And that is exactly what Paul is showing us here: " except there come a departing first..." That departing is the RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH. Paul is telling something must come FIRST before the man of sin can be revealed so all will KNOW that the Day of the Lord has come. What comes first? The departing MUST COME FIRST.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Since Stephen was stoned to death, our Brothers and Sisters have been tortured and killed for their faith. It is happening now to our Brothers and Sisters in the Middle East. The persecution will intensify during the 3 1/2 year Great Tribulation. We know there are Christians here during the trib. If some want to call them "tribulation saints" that is OK, however they have the witness of Christ and are willing to die for their faith in Christ. I believe we would have to call them Christians if we are being honest with the text. When these believers are beheaded during the trib. is it the wrath of God or Satan? The answer is obvious in my humble opinion. God is not beheading these believers. It would be like saying, God beheaded John the Baptist.

If we look at the interpretation used at the time of the Revolutionary War, it was understood that we would be raptured/resurrected at Christ's Second Coming. After we are gathered to Christ, then the wrath of God will be poured out on the unbelievers.

Will members of the Church be here for Satan's wrath? Yes. Many will be killed for their faith.

Will members of the Church be here for God's wrath?. Yes, but not in our flesh bodies. God's wrath will be poured out on unbelievers during the last day of the trib, after we are raptured/resurrected.

Let me repeat, the 3 1/2 year trib is not God's wrath. According to Rev. 12:12 it is Satan's wrath.

Let me repeat: this is BOGUS. It is while Satan's wrath is AT ITS PEAK that God begins to pour out the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days. It is clear then that BOTH Satan's wrath and God's wrath are simultaneous; happening at the same time. How else can I say it, Satan is angry and is murdering saints, but God is MORE ANGRY and will STOP the murder by shortening the days of GT.

Will saints be here for this double wrath? OF COURSE, but it will not be the Bride of Christ who will be raptured BEFORE the week. It will be those left behind, and any new believers. And God has already told us twice, these saints WILL BE OVERCOME.

Readers, ALWAYS REMEMBER, it is not the will of God that ANY believer be overcome. His will is that all believers are READY and found worthy to be caught up in Paul's pretrib rapture.

LAMAD

 

[Bro in Christ]

BABarean2 wrote;
According to Rev. 12:12 the tribulation is Satan's wrath. God's wrath will be poured out on unbelievers after we are gathered at the 7th trumpet. Based on Romans 5:9 and 1st Thess. 5:9 Christ took our part of God's wrath, at the cross.

There is little or no truth in the above statement. "The tribulation" - or more correctly Daniel's 70th week, is a 7 year period of time in which God's wrath is felt throughout the ENTIRE week, but Satan's wrath is felt ONLY after he is defeated and kicked down to earth, at the midpoint of the week. So during the last half of the week, God is angry and Satan is angry, and BOTH are pouring out their wrath AT THE SAME TIME.

Next, THERE IS NO GATHERING at the 7th trumpet. That is MYTH. Paul's gathering will be just before the 6th seal, and the gathering Jesus spoke of will be in Rev. 19 as Jesus returns to earth to fight Armageddon. Indeed, Paul wrote that God will not make an appointment for His kids to suffer His wrath. In saying that, Paul is showing us that we get RAPTURED just before God's wrath begins, at the earthquake of the 6th seal, and before the 7th seal that opens the 70th week. Paul's rapture is CLEARLY pretrib. That is because GOD IS PRETRIB.

LAMAD

going

In Romans 8:23 the church is call the first fruits

Yet the 144,000 also are called first fruits in rev 14:4

Even thou similar what are the differences....

Different glorifications , different promises, different dispensations

 

[iamlamad]

This is the beginning of 7 years of judgement . The first 1260 days or 3 1/2 years

Even a newbie sees the truth of this.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

That I do


Luke 21:35 "For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth."
The "snare" is a trap.

Romans 11:9 "And David saith, "Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompense unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway."

If you were expecting a trap right in front of you, you would make sure you would not step into it, but if you did not know that snare and trap was there, you would walk right into it with eyes wide open. This coming of Satan and the deceptions that come over the earth will be very unexpected. When you hears rumors, and things happening that are drawing you to Satan, that he is here, why would you put yourself into that temptation. Those that don't know the truth of these end times will actually think that Satan is Jesus and will run to him. They will be proud to say that they are Satan's harlot, though they will not word it that way. And the things that they do and say for Satan, they will be thinking all the time that they are doing it for Christ. Through their own traditions, they will set their own traps and fall right into the pit they prepared. They just did not study enough to know the difference between Jesus and Satan, yet they call themselves Christians. The trials and temptations are coming, and Jesus told you in the eighth verse; "Take heed that no man deceive you by any means." They will be coming and telling you that Christ sent them. In their minds Satan is Christ. The Holy Spirit will open your eyes as to which are from God, and those that are from Satan.

Luke 21:36 "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
We are to ask for wisdom to our Heavenly Father's Word, and His guidance daily so we don't fall into those traps and snares of these end times. So lets go into the Greek text to get a better view of what this verse is saying. Why do you stand before the Son of man? You stand there for judgment. Pray that you will have the wisdom to stand against Satan, so by your words and actions you will stand there undefiled and condemned by our Lord. Pray that you will be the one to hear Him say, Well done My good and faithful servant, enter into the gates of heaven. Many will stand before Christ in shame, and Jesus will say to them, "Get away from me, I know you not."

The subject for this entire hour of temptation is being deceived. Do you consider it a blessing when you are not deceived, or does it make any difference to you? the purpose of this chapter is to keep you from being deceived by those that come in Christ's name peddling their false doctrines and traditions that go against God's Word. So if Satan says that he is Christ, and your pastor and denomination tell you that the man in Jerusalem is Christ, and Satan does and says the things you expect Christ to do, will you follow your pastor and bow to that fake? That is the test and trial for this time. Can you be tempted when your family, your church, your friends tell you Satan is Christ, and to top it all off, when you see supernatural acts happening right before your eyes? Jesus is telling you to expect it.

II Thessalonians 2:1, 2 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

Paul is telling you to not be taken in by any means, and they will use every trick in the book to get you to join them.

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,"
Did you get that? Before Jesus comes, there will be a massive falling away , and Satan, who is the man of sin, also called the son of perdition, will actually sit in the his temple in Jerusalem, and the entire world will believe it.

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

It is Satan who opposeth and exalteth himself above our Heavenly Father. Satan will demand that you worship him, and he will sit in his temple in Jerusalem and do and say the things to try and make you believe it. He will try to appear as you think Jesus ought to appear. I hope that in that day when Satan arrives, instead of being tempted in worshipping him, that you would find him the abomination that he is. That is why you will have your gospel armor on and in place to make a stand and be ready for those spiritual battles.

Some people are so biblically illiterate that they will try to tell you that this 36th verse is all about the rapture theory. But it doesn't say that, but the Greek is very specific, "That you stand before Christ at the judgment." You stand before Christ, after these things have come to pass. Then you will be judged by what you did while Satan was in the temple pretending to be God. Did you go to Satan and bow to him, or did you stand your ground? Be prepared to speak up when their lies and deceit are spoken to you. So now stop and think for a moment, why do you put your gospel armor on in the first place? You put on the gospel armor for the sole purpose of making a stand and defending yourself from those fiery darts of Satan's lies. Take the time an study Ephesians 6:10-20. Jesus is telling you to ask Father, pray for the wisdom so that you can be accountable on that day of Jesus' return.

luke


Christians over in the Middle east,have they escaped?How about China?


Why do you think you will ?Heck even the apostles were persecuted,yet you think you're special,WoW!!!!!

We will escape because it is Not the Father's will that we be here when He pours out His wrath. Is this too difficult a concept?

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

The earthquake in my last post was not plural.

Rev 6
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold,[e] there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon[f] became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

Note that these mountains STILL EXIST, they are just moved.

Rev 16
17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. 19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. 20 Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

NOTICE here the earthquake was SO VIOLENT the mountains were shaken down into the earth and DISAPPEAR. To any but the poorest of readers, these are two DIFFERENT earthquakes.

Of course we understand, for someone trying to make a FALSE THEORY fit, they can just SAY these are the same earthquake. For those of us who can read, WE KNOW BETTER.

LAMAD

LAMAD

 

[Ronald]

This prewrath theory is pretty much myth. Yes, indeed God is prewrath and the rapture will be prewrath,

Sounds like you are contradicting yourself.

I am not an adherent to the 70 weeks of Daniel Gap theory. I believe it was a specific time frame leading up to the first coming of Jesus - that's all.

The sixth seal was opened long ago as were all the other seals when Jesus was given the scroll. It is a scroll of written orders that will take place in the future - not when they were opened. We would not know what was in them otherwise. It is simply a book, orders that represent what will happen. The scroll is like a play written. That's why, when every seal is opened, the angel says. "come and see", bringing John to another place, a vision in the future. It is not chronological. If it were, then all the events in the seals would take place prior to any events in the seven trumpets or bowls. The pale horse alone in the fourth seal kills 1/4 of the population on earth -- that hasn't happened yet and we are taken out at the last trumpet - which is #7 btw.
I have to acknowledge the various views other than mine and respect them. Their are some brilliant scholars out there who disagree as to the order of events.
I think the reason is because they look at the "Seals' events in a chronological way coming before the events in the seven trumpets and the seven bowls. I look at it three dimensionally like a sphere. The sphere is the scroll, but events don't take place until the trumpets sound. The trumpets and bowls fall within the scroll, so that when you turn the sphere around and look through it, you see different vantage points, events overlapping and accumulating. It doesn't make sense if you read it in a linear fashion.

The trumpets sound the alarm. They are the last warnings to the world. We endure six of them and at the sound of the last trumpet, we are taken. Then the bowls of wrath are leased.
***That said, the worldwide earthquake that happens in Rev. 16:18, when the 7th bowl is released IS THE SAME EARTHQUAKE DESCRIBED IN REV.6:12, when the sixth seal is opened!
This is only one of many places that demonstrate the events of the trumpets and bowls written in the seals.
So, according to my view, we won't experience any of the bowl events (God's wrath) including this solar flare event where the sun scorches the earth. We'll be gone.

The festival of trumpets beginning on Rosh Hashanah this year or next year may ignite the GT. I'm leaning towards one of the two solar eclipse/blood moons in 2015: March 20/ April 3 or Sept 12/ Sept. 28.
If nothing happens by 2016, I think I'll burn my book, trade in my "gloom and doom badge", and try to live a peaceful retirement with an optimistic hope for the future generations and stop being absorbed with all the bad world news.
God Bless,
Ronald D. Bruno
*author of "Hell ... If I Know", a concise study of Christianity, with special attention given to the nature of Hell and the Great Tribulation Period.

 

[BABerean2]

Rev 6:12-14 sky is red , every mountain and island move

Rev 16:18-20 no more islands and no more mountains
Yet in rev 16:10 everything is complete darkness

Look at differences

Can you imagine the catastrophic earthquake required to move every mountain and island in Rev. chapter 6?

Then in Rev. chapter 16 an earthquake has destroyed the mountains and islands.

It does not take much of an imagination to see these are the result of the same event with a reference in both to the mountains and islands.

Rev. 16:10 does not say "everything" is dark. Instead it says the kingdom of the beast was full of darkness. We know there will be some believers who survive, who will not be a part of the beast's kingdom. Including the next verse makes it clear that this verse refers to those not in Christ. Therefore, "everything" is not dark.


Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

[Manasseh_]

Of course we understand, for someone trying to make a FALSE THEORY fit, they can just SAY these are the same earthquake. For those of us who can read, WE KNOW BETTER.

LAMAD

LAMAD

it's not a question of what you can read but rather what you as all pretribbers do.......read into verses what's not there to begin with..........for example 1Thess 4........one of your favorite "pretrib proof texts"......anyone can read the whole chapter and what's evident is the fact that Paul doesn't even mention tribulation, either before or after and yet you and the pretrib camp INJECT your false pretrib theory into the chapter / verses........when this is brought to the attention of pretribbers you simply ignore the fact and continue to MISREAD,inject and assume this false doctrine into these verses as you do with EVERY verse you make use of as "proof text".........you can't even prove your doctrine with ONE SINGLE VERSE in all of scripture that explicitly states that Christ returns before tribulation, what's sad is the fact that you/pretribbers will continue to support this lie using the same old methods while ignoring any valid points made as to the great many flaws of this false doctrine.......you may think you "know better" but scripture proves you wrong at every turn

 

[BABerean2]

it's not a question of what you can read but rather what you as all pretribbers do.......read into verses what's not there to begin with..........for example 1Thess 4........one of your favorite "pretrib proof texts"......anyone can read the whole chapter and what's evident is the fact that Paul doesn't even mention tribulation, either before or after and yet you and the pretrib camp INJECT your false pretrib theory into the chapter / verses........when this is brought to the attention of pretribbers you simply ignore the fact and continue to MISREAD,inject and assume this false doctrine into these verses as you do with EVERY verse you make use of as "proof text".........you can't even prove your doctrine with ONE SINGLE VERSE in all of scripture that explicitly states that Christ returns before tribulation, what's sad is the fact that you/pretribbers will continue to support this lie using the same old methods while ignoring any valid points made as to the great many flaws of this false doctrine.......you may think you "know better" but scripture proves you wrong at every turn

Thanks for speaking the truth in love, Brother.

Great Post!

Millions of our Brothers and Sisters are totally unprepared to face the enemy, because of this false doctrine.