Rapture Before Wrath

[TPeterY]

It was the first blood(animal) sacrafice until the Cross.....

How do you know that? Does it actually say that?

 

[n2thelight]

How do you know that? Does it actually say that?

Question,was not an animal killed?

 

[kingdomwitness]

God has his plans for us and I believe that the Christians won't have to go through the wrath.

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 428:

John saw the raptured church in heaven, BEFORE the 7th seal that begins the 70th week.

Note that Revelation 7:9-17 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For in Revelation 7:9-17, the great multitude can be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage.

This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Regarding the rapture, note that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

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iamlamad said in post 429:

Truthfully, if someone knows the character of our loving Father, they should know without even reading the book that such a Father would not wish for His Bride to suffer His own wrath.

Note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing the seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. The day of the Lord itself won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

iamlamad said in post 429:

Truthfully, if someone knows the character of our loving Father, they should know without even reading the book that such a Father would not wish for His Bride to suffer His own wrath.

Regarding "His Bride", note that the 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated by Jesus' at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 429:

The church at the time of Matthew 24 was still hidden in the mind of the Father.

Note that Jesus spoke specifically of his "church" (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17) before he spoke Matthew 24. And Matthew 24 refers to the future tribulation, by which time the church will have existed for some 2,000 years. The saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today (whether Jewish or Gentile), for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately only to believers (Matthew 24:3,4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed only to believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation rapture view admits that, for example, John 14, Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21, and Matthew 28 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3, Matthew 28:18-19), so the pre-tribulation rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, whether genetic Jews or Gentiles, those who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), and/or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he is letting them and their little ones suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:37-39).

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them, and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers completely unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

iamlamad said in post 429:

Jesus was not speaking of the church at all, but of the end of the JEWISH AGE, that is the 70th week of Daniel.

Note that while the apostles asked Jesus about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), he didn't tell them that the end of the age would occur at the end of the future tribulation, i.e. at his (post-tribulation) 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), or when the end of the age would occur, just as Jesus didn't tell the apostles many other things during his ministry (John 16:12). It wouldn't be until much later that Jesus would show the apostle John, through the vision in the book of Revelation (given about 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), that the end of the age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).

iamlamad said in post 429:

If you go back and study Daniel 9, you will find the 70th week is FOR THE PEOPLE OF DANIEL, the Jews and Hebrews.

Note that just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

That is, all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they are genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Also, note that the book of James is addressing "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1), which is the same as addressing people in the church (James 5:14), people with faith in Christ (James 2:1, James 1:3) (i.e. Christians), people who have been born again (James 1:18, cf. 1 Peter 1:23), who are waiting for Christ to return (James 5:7).

Similarly, the book of Hebrews is about the church (Hebrews 2:12, Hebrews 12:23), the body of Christ (Hebrews 13:3, cf. 1 Corinthians 12:25-27).

Similarly, John 15:5a refers to the body of Christ, of which all believing Jews and Gentiles are a part (1 Corinthians 12:13). The connection between them being part of the vine of the body of Christ, and them also being part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) is that the salvation which all believers have in Christ comes only through the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

iamlamad said in post 429:

There are other gathering mentioned which gather from heaven. How could that possibly be Paul's rapture which will gather from the earth?

Note that Matthew 24:31's parallel verse of Mark 13:27 shows that the church will be gathered together from both heaven and earth.

The way this will work is: 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It is because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

iamlamad said in post 429:

Next, study diligently 1 Thes; 5, for there Paul gives us the TIMING of the rapture. He tells us there will be a SUDDENLY: a sudden event at a time of peace and safety.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 could include reference to when, near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at the 2 witnesses' death at the legal end of the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:8,15, Revelation 13:5-18), the unsaved world will rejoice and make merry because it will then be free from the tormenting plagues from the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:10,6). But little will the unsaved world realize that the plagues of the 7 vials of God's judgment and wrath will then be poured out upon it (Revelation 16). And then Jesus will return and bring the 2nd-coming judgment and wrath of God (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3).

The unsaved people of the world will have no idea that most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it happens (Matthew 24:37-39). For they could think that the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH God had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.

For during the tribulation's 2nd half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9), and the power Lucifer will give to the Antichrist to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8), and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36), and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers which Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

And near the end of the future tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the 2 witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all of the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the amazing miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected first battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 429:

This IS the churches "blessed hope."

Note that the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) is the hope of eternal life: "In hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2), "that blessed hope" (Titus 2:13), "the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7), by which is meant the hope of obtaining an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Also, Jesus himself is the hope of believers (1 Timothy 1:1b), for he himself is eternal life (John 14:6), and only by believing in him can people have eternal life (John 3:36).

No Christians are hoping for the tribulation instead of Jesus' 2nd coming, even though those Christians who (rightly) hold to the post-tribulation rapture view know that the tribulation must come first (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13). For a Christian (whether male or female) who holds to the post-tribulation rapture view is like a pregnant woman nearing the end of her term. She isn't hoping for birthing pains instead of the birth of her child, but she knows that birthing pains must come first (John 16:21-22, Isaiah 26:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23).

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iamlamad said in post 432:

Therefore in the FIRST part of verse three, the one restraining or preventing MUST BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY.

Note that the restrainer of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) could be a powerful, good angel, like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3). The restrainer can't be the Holy Spirit, because in the future, the restrainer will be removed (2 Thessalonians 2:7b), while the Holy Spirit can never be removed because he is always omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-10). Similarly, the restrainer can't be the church or the Holy Spirit in the church, because the church won't be removed (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and now no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Romans 8:9); and the Antichrist will be allowed to physically overcome believers in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some believers in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10).

iamlamad said in post 432:

And that is exactly what Paul is showing us here: " except there come a departing first..."

Note that the "departing" or the "falling away" (Greek: apostasia) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the apostasy, when some in the church will depart from the faith in the latter times (1 Timothy 4:1), when the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and begins a worldwide persecution against the church (Matthew 24:9-13) during his worldwide reign (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Those in the church who fall away/commit apostasy will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

The meanings of the Greek word apostasia, as well as the Greek word it is derived from, aphistemi, include non-physical departure. For Acts 21:21 employs apostasia to refer to Jewish Christians in the 1st century AD forsaking, departing from, their former practice of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And Luke 8:13 employs aphistemi to refer to Christians falling away, departing, from the faith. Also, at the rapture, the church won't physically depart from the earth (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), but will be caught up only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

iamlamad said in post 432:

Paul is telling something must come FIRST before the man of sin can be revealed so all will KNOW that the Day of the Lord has come.

Note that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to when an individual man will be revealed (i.e. without any remaining doubt) as being the Antichrist by his sitting (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15). This is one of the things which have to happen sometime before the future day of Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For at the 2nd coming, the Antichrist will be destroyed (2 Thessalonians 2:8b, Revelation 19:20).

iamlamad said in post 432:

Paul is telling something must come FIRST before the man of sin can be revealed so all will KNOW that the Day of the Lord has come.

Note that nothing Paul says requires that the day of the Lord will have started by the time that the man of sin is revealed.

For the future day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

*******

iamlamad said in post 433:

God has already told us twice, these saints WILL BE OVERCOME.

Revelation 13:7-10 refers to the Antichrist, during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10), being allowed to physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some Biblical Christians in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10). There are no Biblical Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

But Revelation 13:7-10 doesn't mean that every person in the church will be overcome by the Antichrist. For some in the church will be in God-protected wilderness places (Revelation 12:6,14-16), and so they will still be "alive and remain" on the earth at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the tribulation (Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

iamlamad said in post 433:

His will is that all believers are READY and found worthy to be caught up in Paul's pretrib rapture.

Do you mean that there will be only a partial rapture of the church, sometime before the 2nd coming, of only those in the church who are ready for the rapture by simply believing that it is pre-tribulation, and by living holy lives? If so, note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture, that the entire church won't be raptured (gathered together) at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is the time of Jesus' 2nd coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). For the need for believers to be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:10) doesn't have to do with whether or not they will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not they will lose their salvation at that time (e.g. Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

For some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

iamlamad said in post 433:

His will is that all believers are READY and found worthy to be caught up in Paul's pretrib rapture.

Regarding being "found worthy", note that Luke 21:36 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For some in the church will escape all of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 by dying before it begins (Isaiah 57:1). And others in the church will escape all of it by being physically protected on the earth during it (Revelation 12:14-16, Psalms 91). Those who will escape it by dying before it begins will stand before the Lord in heaven (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And those who will escape it by being miraculously protected on the earth during it will stand before the Lord in the sky at the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

iamlamad said in post 433:

His will is that all believers are READY and found worthy to be caught up in Paul's pretrib rapture.

Regarding "Paul's pretrib rapture", note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

 

[TPeterY]

Question,was not an animal killed?

No, you got it right. But I'm picking your brain trying to get you to think more. Need you to use your head more so I won't have to do this sometimes when I read your answers. LOL!

Yeah, God made the first animal sacrifice to wash away their sin with the blood and blessed them before letting them leave the garden. Many people don't know God actually blessed Adam and Eve.

 

[BABerean2]

God has his plans for us and I believe that the Christians won't have to go through the wrath.

We are not appointed to wrath because Christ took our wrath at the cross.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

The last verse above speaks the truth about our place with Christ.

The confusion comes into play when some insist that the entire great tribulation is God's Wrath. The persecution of believers during the past, now, and in the future will not be God's Wrath.

The enemy may destroy your flesh body, just like the Apostle Paul was killed. However, Christians will be resurrected, just as Christ was.

.

 

[Danoh]

BAB, re your post #469, your error is the very same one you constantly accuse the Dispensationalist of, and that, regardless of what Dispensational school of thought they might hold to.

This one size fits all that you see things through is the same lens you apply to Scripture.

The persecution of Believers prior to the Cross, for example, was under one or another of Israel's COLLECTIVE judgements, on God's part. When they of Israel not truly of Israel would transgress the Law Covenant to where said transgression would provoke GOD'S Wrath, ALL would suffer HIS Wrath - ALL would "suffer chastening."

This is clear in the OT and is clear in Hebrews thru Revelation.

It is THESE sorts of DISTINCTIONS that RESULTED IN the RECOVERY OF the Dispensational Hermeneutic.

It is THAT history of the Dispensational Principle that IS in Scripture.

BUT since YOU and ALL YOUR KIND approach this issue from YOUR erroneous PRESUPPOSITION that our Hermeneutic came BEFORE the DISTINCTIONS THAT RESULTED IN IT, you and yours REMAIN at odds with what is really the error of YOUR cart before the horse.

You call this harsh, and arrogant, and lacking in humility, and what have you. But that is the reading INTO of another's words of YOUR predisposition ONCE MORE.

The scribes of Christ's day OFFENDED by His calling things what they were.

The Wrath OF GOD, as ISRAEL'S Prophets well knew, has to do with ISRAEL'S LAW Covenant, thus.

You violate this IMPORTANT, OVERALL Frame of Reference in false accusation after false accusation of yours against Dispensationalism.

You also violate it when you post your views on issues having to do with issues of wrath, tribulation, etc.

It is further clear, for example, in Romans 1, that another aspect of GOD'S Wrath is that of what Paul writes there He responded to the Gentiles with - He "gave them up!"

That one there is also the sense of 1 Thessalonians 2:16c.

Which Interplanner so distorts from your same error.

What did the Lord tell Paul when he argued that Israel would listen to him, as they were well aware he had persecuted Believers? "And he said unto me, DEPART: FOR I will send thee FAR HENCE unto the Gentiles," Acts 22:21.

BEFORE He saved Paul, HE had ALREADY conclude UNBELIEVING Israel, "NOT of Israel... NOT... my people" once more, at the same time He sealed the election - those "of Israel" who had "obtained what He seeketh [that nation] for [to do] Rom. 9-11.

It is these DISTINCTIONS that RESULTED IN the Dispensational Hermeneutic.

The Hermenuetic which was THEN tested, and tested, and tested BEFORE it was realized was not only A KEY PRINCIPLE, but what one which had obviously been lost, EVERY BIT AS LOST as that DISTINCTION that ignited the raging fires of the Reformation - Romans 5's "Justified BY FAITH!" - a Truth lost all those generations thanks to that infamous heretic, Constantine, and the hell he unleashed on the world up until the Reformers. A hell that sent millions to eternal damnation throughout the Dark Ages.

Men like Luther came RECOVER the doctrine of "By Faith Alone" through DISTINCTIONS they COULD NOT HELP BUT NOTICE.

By your notion, BAB, the Reformer's recovery "was some later notion," also, just as the RCC still asserts it is even now.

You and yours are as inconsistent in your own logic, and for the same reasoning you conclude we are - your consistent failure to step back a bit further, where objectivity allows the bigger picture to been seen.

As with Interplanner's "four years Master's work in Luke and Acts, and much time in the Greek before that."

Barely glancing at 1 Thessalonians 2:13-16 because his Scholasticsm knows better about these things then Scripture with Scripture "is able to make thee wise" in, he follows, as he last minute glances at the passage, he follows neither its immediate, nor the overall frame of reference its words are based on, nor the flow of the passage, let alone, its word structure. In plain English, that's five errors in his take on the entire passage.

But its the basic, overall approach of all schools of thought throughout their approach to the various issues.

Earlier Dispensationalism, as it still had a ways to go, would at times end up at solutions inconsistent with the Dispensational Hermeneutic, for their jumping the gun where a bit more time in the Word was what was needed - that FINER DISTINCTIONS be allowed their recovering.

To be sure, THAT IS where Mid-Acts DIFFERS with EARLIER Dispensationalism, but I've already noted that.

Gainsay all this, or receive its word with all readiness of mind FIRST, that you might THEN OBJECTIVELY search THE SCRIPTURES DAILY whether those things were so...

Either way, "the day SHALL declare... the wood, hay, and stubble..." resulted of a refusal to have at least done that much...

 

[BABerean2]

Brother Danoh,

It is good to know we agree on at least two points in your last post. Constantine's role in the perversion of the Gospel and Luther's role in the Reformation in an effort to get back to the original teachings of the Apostles of Christ.

Sometimes our emotions come into play on this forum, especially when others challenge our doctrine. Unfortunately, that seems to be the case with you, at this point.

The battle is not between the two of us.

The world is now being pushed toward the globalist, one world antichrist system found in scripture. Some of the most powerful people in government and industry have now openly called for this to occur.

I have been told by pastors that we do not need to worry about the antichrist system, because we will be raptured away before it occurs. Yesterday, a Sister I love, sent me an email about what should be said to those "Left Behind" after the rapture. Because I love, her I spoke the truth in love to her. According to Matthew chapter 25, there will not be any second chances. During the last few days I have seen advertisements for the new "Left Behind" movie, starring Nicholas Cage.

If you are correct and I am wrong, many of us on this forum will be pleasantly surprised that we will be taken out in a pretrib rapture. If that happens, you are welcome to tell me on the way up. "I told you so."

If I am correct and you are wrong, millions of our Brothers and Sisters will be spiritually unprepared to face the coming persecution during the Great Tribulation. Also, millions of those on the edge of salvation may conclude that the Bible is not true because the teachings of pretrib pastors, which now dominant their televisions, were not the truth.

Hopefully, you understand the stakes that are involved in this battle between the people of God and the enemy.

You can tell others they will not have to face the enemy's final battle.

In my humble opinion it is a mistake with eternal consequences.

.

 

[Danoh]

There you go again, BAB, lumping together the sensationalists with the ones not.

Linking also, those who assert things like "a Dispensation is a time period" with those who do NOT.

Your entire case is built on overgeneralizations, just as you repeatedly asserted things about Stam's position apart from their context, you assert this fool notion I am being emotional or what have you.

That is nonsense on your part, once more. The only THING I take personal in any of these threads is that those who have trusted in Christ alone are Complete, in Him alone.

Rapture, no rapture, persecution, or breakfast at McDonald's, scratch that - at IHOP,lol - if a person understands His Completeness in Christ, there is no taking personal anything else, including wrath, or persecution, or height, or depth, or..."

"YE ARE straightened in YOUR OWN bowels," BAB, "NOT in us."

You take your potshots, well, the iron that is the sword of such, cannot but return its cut.

I suggest you "put on the WHOLE armour," and quit your crying.

Man, get some of that "spirit" [attitude or perspective] of love, and of a sound mind" on this already. I have NOTHING against you, just against your consistently erroneous approach to examining what you assert you are all so understanding of.

Get over yourself, get over me, get IN CHRIST...

 

[BABerean2]

There you go again, BAB, lumping together the sensationalists with the ones not.

Linking also, those who assert things like "a Dispensation is a time period" with those who do NOT.

Your entire case is built on overgeneralizations, just as you repeatedly asserted things about Stam's position apart from their context, you assert this fool notion I am being emotional or what have you.

That is nonsense on your part, once more. The only THING I take personal in any of these threads is that those who have trusted in Christ alone are Complete, in Him alone.

Rapture, no rapture, persecution, or breakfast at McDonald's, scratch that - at IHOP,lol - if a person understands His Completeness in Christ, there is no taking personal anything else, including wrath, or persecution, or height, or depth, or..."

"YE ARE straightened in YOUR OWN bowels," BAB, "NOT in us."

You take your potshots, well, the iron that is the sword of such, cannot but return its cut.

I suggest you "put on the WHOLE armour," and quit your crying.

Man, get some of that "spirit" [attitude or perspective] of love, and of a sound mind" on this already. I have NOTHING against you, just against your consistently erroneous approach to examining what you assert you are all so understanding of.

Get over yourself, get over me, get IN CHRIST...

Brother Danoh,




You have done it again...

......................................................................................

Debate Strategy of some, but not all, Dispensationalists:


Step 1: Ignore or ridicule the origins of the doctrine.

Step 2: Take scriptures out of context or divide scripture into that for the Jews and that for the Church in order to make the doctrine work.

Step 3: If steps 1 and 2 do not work, make a personal attack upon the person who dares to question John Darby’s doctrine.

........................................................................................

Your last post would be Step 3 again...

Suggesting a problem with your Brother's salvation is a low blow...


.

 

[Danoh]

I have to laugh, BAB, I really do.

I don't even know what you base your salvation on, for me to have a problem with it - duh!

Rather, my completeness in Christ statement had to do with my understanding of that put out there on here for all, for the issue on thos thread is one of wrath issues.

I do suspect that you have believed Romans 5:8 for example.

And I believe in the Eternal Security of the Believer.

You would know that had you actually carefully examined Stam's book, which I, for the most.part, agree with.

Brother, stand up a minute, and give youself a hug for me. And while you're at it, a smile.

I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST ANYONE ON HERE, saved, lost, confused, spot on, OR WHAT HAVE YOU.

Would you like a dozen roses [and a Scofield Reference Bible, lol] as confirmation...

Or is the Cross enough...

Okay, that out of the way - you're - still - way - off - as to Dispensationalism...

 

[BABerean2]

I have to laugh, BAB, I really do.

I don't even know what you base your salvation on, for me to have a problem with it - duh!

Rather, my completeness in Christ statement had to do with my understanding of that put out there on here for all, for the issue on thos thread is one of wrath issues.

I do suspect that you have believed Romans 5:8 for example.

And I believe in the Eternal Security of the Believer.

You would know that had you actually carefully examined Stam's book, which I, for the most.part, agree with.

Brother, stand up a minute, and give youself a hug for me. And while you're at it, a smile.

I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST ANYONE ON HERE, saved, lost, confused, spot on, OR WHAT HAVE YOU.

Would you like a dozen roses [and a Scofield Reference Bible, lol] as confirmation...

Or is the Cross enough...

Okay, that out of the way - you're - still - way - off - as to Dispensationalism...

Brother Danoh,

I appreciate the offer, but I already have a Scofield Bible.

One, will be a plenty for me.

Maybe if I keep reading Scofield's notes it will cure my -still - way - off - Dispensationalism...

.

 

[shturt678s]

There you go again, BAB, lumping together the sensationalists with the ones not.

Linking also, those who assert things like "a Dispensation is a time period" with those who do NOT.

Your entire case is built on overgeneralizations, just as you repeatedly asserted things about Stam's position apart from their context, you assert this fool notion I am being emotional or what have you.

That is nonsense on your part, once more. The only THING I take personal in any of these threads is that those who have trusted in Christ alone are Complete, in Him alone.

Rapture, no rapture, persecution, or breakfast at McDonald's, scratch that - at IHOP,lol - if a person understands His Completeness in Christ, there is no taking personal anything else, including wrath, or persecution, or height, or depth, or..."

"YE ARE straightened in YOUR OWN bowels," BAB, "NOT in us."

You take your potshots, well, the iron that is the sword of such, cannot but return its cut.

I suggest you "put on the WHOLE armour," and quit your crying.

Man, get some of that "spirit" [attitude or perspective] of love, and of a sound mind" on this already. I have NOTHING against you, just against your consistently erroneous approach to examining what you assert you are all so understanding of.

Get over yourself, get over me, get IN CHRIST...

There are diverse ways to get IN CHRIST, ie, once one is genuinely IN CHRIST God's way then they have to remain in heeding the forever and ever warnings of falling away out of the Kingdom of God.

BTW flee that dispensationalism ASAP,

Old Jack

 

[Rev20]

Brother Danoh,

I appreciate the offer, but I already have a Scofield Bible.

One, will be a plenty for me.

Maybe if I keep reading Scofield's notes it will cure my -still - way - off - Dispensationalism...

.

Always keep a Scofield "Bible" handy so you will know what NOT to believe.


.

 

[Danoh]

There are diverse ways to get IN CHRIST, ie, once one is genuinely IN CHRIST God's way then they have to remain in heeding the forever and ever warnings of falling away out of the Kingdom of God.

BTW flee that dispensationalism ASAP,

Old Jack

Shturt678, Now this "salvation" you speak of, I would question.

Once in, you're sealed in "saved by HIS life," Rom. 5.

So, either you once had that, but are now confused [in which case, you're STILL in, but confused] OR you were never in to begin with.

In which case, I have to plead with you "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt ne saved." Get in Romans 3-8!!!!!!!!!!!!

As for BAB, now that's more like it.

And now, back to our differences

 

[Danoh]

By the way, BAB, the DISTINCTION is between Scripture about Jew - the Actual, ONE NATION UNDER GOD and The Gentile NATIONS - prior to Paul, and Scripture about Gentile after Paul; BOTH INDIVIDUAL Jew and INDIVIDUAL Gentile in the One Body.

See, if you are going to prosecute a case against Mid-Acts, at least, well then FIRST, you need to get our facts straight.

 

[Bro in Christ]

Brother Danoh,

It is good to know we agree on at least two points in your last post. Constantine's role in the perversion of the Gospel and Luther's role in the Reformation in an effort to get back to the original teachings of the Apostles of Christ.

Sometimes our emotions come into play on this forum, especially when others challenge our doctrine. Unfortunately, that seems to be the case with you, at this point.

The battle is not between the two of us.

The world is now being pushed toward the globalist, one world antichrist system found in scripture. Some of the most powerful people in government and industry have now openly called for this to occur.

I have been told by pastors that we do not need to worry about the antichrist system, because we will be raptured away before it occurs. Yesterday, a Sister I love, sent me an email about what should be said to those "Left Behind" after the rapture. Because I love, her I spoke the truth in love to her. According to Matthew chapter 25, there will not be any second chances. During the last few days I have seen advertisements for the new "Left Behind" movie, starring Nicholas Cage.

If you are correct and I am wrong, many of us on this forum will be pleasantly surprised that we will be taken out in a pretrib rapture. If that happens, you are welcome to tell me on the way up. "I told you so."

If I am correct and you are wrong, millions of our Brothers and Sisters will be spiritually unprepared to face the coming persecution during the Great Tribulation. Also, millions of those on the edge of salvation may conclude that the Bible is not true because the teachings of pretrib pastors, which now dominant their televisions, were not the truth.

Hopefully, you understand the stakes that are involved in this battle between the people of God and the enemy.

You can tell others they will not have to face the enemy's final battle.

In my humble opinion it is a mistake with eternal consequences.

.

We are told we have a happy hope Titus 2:13
During the great trib all nation mourn ... Matt 24:30

If we are saved by grace eph 2:8-9
We grow by grace... 2 Peter 3:18
We will not be judged. Since that will be by grace
Romans 8:1 there is no judgement to those who are in Christ

Problem is when you take someone else mail for your self

Law saints could not mature... Gal4:1-4
Law saints earned different degrees of rewards
Law saints are still waiting for eternal life ... Dan 12
Since they do not have God In dwelling them they are not in Christ so God has elected them as Tribulational saints to suffer which is another contrast of law saints vs grace saints
Among many other contrasts

 

[Danoh]

BAB, you said in your post above "If you are correct and I am wrong, many of us on this forum will be pleasantly surprised that we will be taken out in a pretrib rapture. If that happens, you are welcome to tell me on the way up. "I told you so."

Not so quick, there, BAB, if I, as you put it, am correct, you'll be saved, but lose the reward of the inheritence He wanted you to have. Not the inheritence, but its reward.

Thus, its not about me being right. Its bad enough you hurt yourself through these notions about others, when He would that your strength be made perfect in weakness, but worse than that is the wood, hay, and stubble of your doctrine and its resulting loss on that day.

You're a member of the neither Jew nor Gentile Body of Christ and His intended glory through, not some physical son of Abraham also spiritual, over the Gentile nations as to His intended glory in that nation one day.