Rapture Before Wrath

[Bible2]

bibletruth469 said in post 378:

There is no such thing as initial salvation.

Note that the ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation don't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" in order for them to be true and supported by scripture, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity don't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the unity" and "the Trinity" in order for them to be true and supported by scripture (e.g. John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).

In the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5). But other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must actually continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, in the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5) in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is that salvation which is ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus will bring to obedient Christians at his 2nd coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when he will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at his resurrection on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

bibletruth469 said in post 378:

You are either saved or you are not.

That's right.

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people can know that they are actually saved. And just as an infant can't "give back" his being born, so a born-again person can't "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

bibletruth469 said in post 378:

Please look at Ephesians 1:13-14 . . .

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 1:13-14, like Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:22, and 2 Corinthians 5:5, means that the measure of the Holy Spirit which believers have received now is like a down payment until their future redemption into physical immortality at Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). But this future redemption isn't assured for every believer, just as a down payment on a house doesn't always assure that the future purchase-in-full will take place, instead of it being cancelled for some reason, such as the sellers willfully ruining the house after receiving the down payment and before the purchase-in-full has taken place. For the Holy Spirit doesn't take away believers' free will. So if they wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19) and do something like committing apostasy, or engaging in some sin without repentance, or becoming utterly lazy without repentance, they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

bibletruth469 said in post 378:

You see, salvation can't be taken away and once you have it, you can't lose it!

Note that the Bible doesn't teach once-saved-always-saved, but shows that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, even if they do continue in the faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience and good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, even if they do continue in faith and good works of faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to the end to repent from every sin that they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive everyone for every wrong (Matthew 6:14-15). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 18:21-35).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all that they can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (3 John 1:10b).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matthew 12:28) was performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There is no assurance that initially saved people will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b; 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't remove words from the book of Revelation and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). There is no assurance that they will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't worship the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receive his mark on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 14:9-12, Revelation 13:16-18). There is no assurance that they won't choose to do that (1 Timothy 4:1).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

All this is said not to engender any unhealthy fear in believers, but the healthy fear which all believers are supposed to have (e.g. Romans 11:20-22).

And all this is said not to engender any despair in believers, but the healthy, close-clinging to the person of Jesus himself, which all believers must continue in (John 15:4-6). For while God makes it possible for initially saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13) toward their ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b, Matthew 7:21), this is possible only so long as they continue to abide in Jesus. For on their own, apart from Jesus, they can't do anything good (John 15:4-5).

Also, Jesus isn't a hard taskmaster. He will never give believers more work to do for him than they can easily bear (Matthew 11:28-30). So if believers ever get stressed out that Jesus is asking them to do too much, it is not Jesus asking them to do whatever is stressing them out (Luke 10:40-42). They need to take a step back and ask Jesus what particular spiritual work he is actually asking them as individuals to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8).

bibletruth469 said in post 378:

However , many people think they have it and do not so they are very deceived. This is very unfortunate . That is why it is so important to get the true gospel out and accomplish the great commission !

That's right.

But under true, Biblical doctrine, every believer in the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know that he is presently saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), if when he became a believer in the gospel he repented from his sins (1 John 3:6) and confessed them to God (1 John 1:9). And he can be sure that as a saved person, he can never be separated from the love of God, so long as he loves God (Romans 8:28-39), which means to obey him (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24). And no matter how many tests a saved person fails during his lifetime, sometime subsequent to his initial repentance, even if he fails and commits sin 70 times 7 times in a single day (Matthew 18:21-22, Luke 17:4), he can be sure that so long as he sincerely repents from every act of sin and confesses it to God, he will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9). He will lose his salvation ultimately only if he wrongly employs his free will to do something like committing a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

 

[TPeterY]

Let's take this a portion at a time. First, I am not "refusing" to accept. The ball is in your court to prove what you say by scripture. If you prove it by scripture, I will certainly accept it.

~ It would mean no one can die during the tribulation.

WHY? That is an unproven statement of theory. The rapture is for those "IN CHRIST" only. I think you are reading more into the 1 Cor. text than is there. Paul writes "WE shall not all sleep." In 1 Thes. he identifies the "we" as those "in Christ." Therefore the rapture will have NO AFFECT on those in the tribulation. In fact, Paul identifies the same group here in 1 Cor.

1 Corinthians 15:23
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

First he identifies the time as Christ's coming. then he identifies WHO as in "those who are Christ's." Please note that there is an ORDER to the resurrections. As I showed before, the resurrection of the UNJUST will be over a thousand years from the rapture/resurrection.

~It would mean Christ will not be able to defeat the antichrist and his army because they are immortal.

They are NOT imortal, because the rapture/resurrection is for those "IN CHRIST" only. This resurrection (at the rapture - pretrib) is for the Bride of Christ ONLY. There is nothing in 1 Cor. That tells us anything different.

~ It would mean the immediate passing away of the natural realm and the coming return of the spirit realm. (Rev 21:1).

No it would not! Please show us the verse or verses in 1 Cor. 15 that would give you this idea?

~ It would mean all enemies, even death eliminated at the rapture.

Death IS ELIMINATED, but ONLY for those "in Christ." That is who the rapture is for.

~ It would mean satan also defeated and can not be released at the end of the millennium.

Why? Remember, death is the FINAL enemy to be defeated. It is not totally defeated at the rapture, for people will still die and people will still be dead and in hell until LONG after the rapture.

Did I just not understand what you mean? Have I missed a verse somewhere? Or are you reading something into 1 Cor. 15 that is not there? If there are verses to back up your theories here, I am all ears, so to speak. However, I don't think there are.

LAMAD

Look at 1 Cor 15:51-55. Just those 5 verses alone can raise awareness for those observant and alert to ponder if this is really the rapture.

1 Corinthians 15:51-55 (NKJV)
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55 “O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”


1) It said "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed." Paul is saying "all" as in everyone alive during the time of this event will not die but will be instantly transform.

2) And we know this is everyone not only because it said "all" but also because it said "the dead" not the dead in Christ. From this we know Paul was not speaking of only the true believers. Plus it also said we shall be changed. We don't get moved from one location to another, we stay put at our location and instantly change. No catching away, no meeting the Lord in the air.

3) In verse 54, we are transform and made incorruptible and immortal meaning death is finally defeated. When does this happen? Only at the end of the millennium when death and hell is cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:14) because death will be the last enemy destroy (1 Cor 15:26).

Now why must death be eliminated and why is it the last enemy that must be destroy. It's because death is nothing more than a transformation from the physical realm into the spiritual realm.

After everyone has been made incorruptible and immortal, we're in the spirit realm and no longer in the physical realm. It's why Paul said in verse 51 "we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed." He's telling us everyone alive at that time will not have to die in order to be transform into the spiritual realm, we will all be change right where we're at and not be caught up like a rapture.

4) Look at Rev 20:13 to 21:2 and compare it to 1 Cor 15:51-55. They're the same event.

1 Corinthians 15:51-55 (NKJV)
51) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54) So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55) “O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”



Revelation 20:13-21:2 (NKJV)
13) The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14) Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15) And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

1) Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2) Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


A) The dead raise from the dead in 1 Cor 15:52 and Rev 20:13.

B) Last enemy - Death - defeated in 1 Cor 15:54-55 and Rev 20:14.

C) We shall "all" be change from the mortal (physical realm) to immortal (spiritual realm) instantly at where we are. Not moved nor a no catching away up to meet Christ in the air. 1 Cor 15:52.

Look at Rev 21:1-2. A new heaven and a new earth, this is the spiritual realm and we know this because the new Jerusalem is coming down to us from heaven. It comes down to us, we don't move or get caught up into the air like some type of rapture. This is the transformation from the physical realm to the spiritual realm happening in the twinkling of an eye. 1 Cor 15:53.

D) The Last Trumpet Paul mentioned in 1 Cor 15:52 happens right here sounding off this major event. This is just what he meant, "THE" Last trumpet, as in the final trumpet that will ever be sounded off. Paul tells us there will be a trumpet sounding for this major event.

We know the sounding of a trumpet is a common event in heaven, especially during the tribulation, what reason is there why a trumpet can not be sounded here?

Plus there's no scriptural proof Paul was referring to any trumpet in the tribulation either. Just man's assumption. Example --- last trumpet? Hmm, the 7th is the last of 7 trumpets, must be that one! If Paul was actually referring to the 7th trumpet, he could of said 7th trumpet instead off last trumpet in 1 Cor 15:52.

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From 1 Cor 15:40-44, Paul reveals the two types of bodies and compares both.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (NKJV)
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

"If" 1 Cor 15:51-55 is a the rapture. read below.

~ It would mean no one can die during the tribulation.

Because Paul said in verse 51, "all" will be changed. That means everyone will have a spiritual body. meaning no one in the tribulation will die if it's a pre-trib rapture. Again Paul's not referring to only the true believers, otherwise he would of said "dead in Christ" instead of just the "dead."

~ It would mean Christ will not be able to defeat the antichrist and his army because they are immortal.

If the rapture happens as late as post-trib, The antichrist and his army are also immortal in the spiritual realm. Christ is leaving heaven coming to the physical realm. They will both be in different realms and Christ will not be able to fight them on earth.

~ It would mean all enemies, even death eliminated at the rapture.

~ It would mean satan also defeated and can not be released at the end of the millennium.

All enemies defeated, the last enemy is death. That means satan has also been defeated. And we know that won't happen until the end of the millennium. 1 Cor 15:51-55 can only happen at the end of the millennium.

It makes no sense that 1 Cor 15:51-55 is the rapture if we just examine all the other passages throughout chapter 15.

_____________________________________

Paul does list the order of events from the rapture of the Church till the end of the millennium.

1) Verse 23 is the rapture of the Church. Noticed Paul describes the Church here but not in 1 Cor 15:52.

1 Corinthians 15:23 (NKJV)
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

2) Verse 24, the tribulation.

3) Verse 25, the millennium when Christ will reign and put all enemies under His feet.

1 Corinthians 15:25 (NKJV)
For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.

4) verse 26, the end of the millennium when death is swallowed up in victory cast into the lake of fire.

1 Corinthians 15:54 (NKJV)
So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

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Jesus revealed our new bodies (for those raptured and rewarded) will be made of flesh, not a spiritual body. We will have needs just like any physical body.

These bodies are physical made of flesh but glorified and empowered from the rewards of the crowns during the Judgment Seat of Christ. Those of us will be able to live throughout the millennium and reign with Christ. Others will continue to die during the millennium until the end when death is destroy.

Luke 24:36-43 (NKJV)
36) Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” 37) But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38) And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39) Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
40) When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41) But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?” 42) So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. 43) And He took it and ate in their presence.

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In the second coming of Christ, Jesus is viewed as the bridegroom and conqueror. that's the rapture and the second coming.

Nowhere in 1 Cor 15 is Jesus compared to a bridegroom or conqueror. Jesus is compared to Adam as the second Adam.

What does Adam have to do with the rapture? And why is Christ called the second Adam in 1 Cor 15?

1 Cor 15: 51-55 is not the rapture, it's the great resurrection and transformation from the natural to the spiritual at the end of the millennium in Revelation 20:13-21:2.

.

 

[TPeterY]

"I will come again"
Is Jesus Second Coming near the End of the great tribulation

Riberra, how hard is it to understand "receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also?"

John 14:2-3 (NKJV)
2) In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.


Do you have enough common sense to combine that with "I will come again" and figure out when Christ returns at the end of the tribulation, He will not make a U-turn going back up to heaven?

Not everything is defeated immediately at Jesus Second Coming that is why he come to reign during the Millennium
You must use your brain and read carefully what is written in a verse...
1 Corinthians 15:25-26 (NKJV)
25) For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26) The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

Exactly! So why would you think 1 Cor 15:51-55 is the rapture if death is not immediately defeated during His second coming? So who's not using a brain reading carefully?


.

 

[Daniel1136]

Hard to convince them TPeterY

The sequence of the Lord's next intervention will include His call of His ecclesia, His unprecedented hour [time] of trial and judgment which will last for 2550 days, and then His appearance upon the earth after those days of the tribulation [Matthew 24:29-31]

This is beyond their comprehension .... this "on" the last day stuff is a concoction made by the post-tribulation teacher .... "on" the last day is never used in scripture

.... it is either in the last day or at the last day an this implies a period of time, not "on" one day at the end of the tribulation .... in fact the gatherings in Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46 are not resurrections, but gatherings of the mortal survivors of the tribulation of both Israel and the Gentiles of the nations .... those found believing will enter and populate [reproduce] the Lord's millennial kingdom, those in unbelief will be rejected

Satan has duped them because he wants to get a shot at them in the tribulation period [Revelation 12:12]

He knows that if they go there the chance of their repentance will be scarce because of all of the confusion and deception and they will be killed and lost forever [Revelation 3:15-19]

 

[iamlamad]

it's all to obvious there is no confusion in any of these verses, but they do not teach or say in any way what you imply, ie, that a soul is already immortal, man was created from dust and returns to dust, there is no conscious being among the dead , the dead know nothing, resurrection is required for a dead soul to rise to life again and that is only through Christ on the last day at his coming...........a soul according to scripture is a living breathing being ie, alive by breathing, (hebrew nephesh)...........scripture does not define a soul in any way as being immortal already......this alone would contradict the scriptural teaching of resurrection or even the need for resurrection....................you may want to carefully consider what scripture teaches rather than let popular belief influence you..........PROVE ALL THINGS

Yes, of course we prove all things; we prove you are wrong. Don't EVER make doctrine from Old Testament passage alone: the New Testament makes this subject MUCH clearer. Paul tells us that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. If you do any reading at all, there are now MANY books about people that have died and gone to heaven, but someone prayed them back to their body. They did not miss ONE THOUGHT from being in the body to out of the body.

The truth is, as Paul also taught, the soul and spirit of a human is tied very tightly together, so tightly that ONLY the word of God can divided them. Remember when the disciples saw Jesus on the water? At first they thought it was a SPIRIT. Notice, they did not think it was a soul. We ARE a spirit being, we possess a soul (mind, will, emotions, affections) and for now we live in our earth-suit; our flesh and blood body.

I know a man (He has gone on to heaven now) that died 4 times as a youth, about 15 years old, all within a few minutes time. The first three times he went down to hell. He saw the fire with his own two spiritual eyes. He felt two beings grab him to escort him through the gates, when a voice rang out. He could not understand what was said, but they let go of him and he ascended right back and came up right through the porch, went right through the wall into his bedroom, and right back into his body. However, as He was going down, he was TALKING to God: "I should not be going down, I should be going up. I have put money in the offering." He was trying to tell God that he should be going up to heaven. However, he KNEW he was not born again. He did know that much.

Well, he died three times, went down to hell three times...but the third time he just KNEW it would be his last - that he would not return again to his body. So he began screaming out repentance this last trip down! He asked God to forgive him. And the moment he did that, he stopped his descent and started back up. The last time he came right up beside his bed and jumped back into his body. At that time both he and his mom was praying SO LOUDLY that they stopped traffic in the street! Prayer makes a HUGE difference. His mom would not allow him to die! However, his heart stopped those three times. He FELT it stop, and felt the blood stop circulating before his spirit left his body. Someone was in the bedroom with him, and they saw his eyes fix - saw the life leave his eyes. They knew he died.

Well, the fourth time his heart stopped, and this time he began to ascend. but again he heard a voice, and this time he understood it. God spoke and said, "go back! Go back. You can't come yet. You have work to do."

I may not have this word for word, but I have heard him tell this testimony several times.

I have talked with another man that died in a car wreck and went to heaven. His sister would not allow him to stay. She prayed him back. He is Gary L Wood. You can find his testimony online. He testifies of his time in heaven. There are many other such stories that only confirm what Paul tells us, that when someone born again dies, their spirit is ABSENT from the body but VERY MUCH ALIVE.

If people could only believe the story of the rich man and Lazarus, there would be no questions. Both men were VERY MUCH alive, just out of their bodies. Both could SEE, both could TALK, both could REMEMBER.

So there is ample PROOF that our spirit and soul were created to be like God - to live forever. The TRUTH is, our Spirit and soul will live as long as God lives.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Riberra, how hard is it to understand "receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also?"

John 14:2-3 (NKJV)
2) In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.


Do you have enough common sense to combine that with "I will come again" and figure out when Christ returns at the end of the tribulation, He will not make a U-turn going back up to heaven?




Exactly! So why would you think 1 Cor 15:51-55 is the rapture if death is not immediately defeated during His second coming? So who's not using a brain reading carefully?
.

Death is most certainly defeated at Jesus pretrib coming FOR His bride - but that is ONLY for those "in Christ." And 1 Cor. gives a much deeper explanation of exactly what happens to those who are alive and "in Christ" who are changed from mortal into immortality: we get a resurrection body just like Jesus got when He rose.

I have read of His coming in Rev 19 - His coming WITH His Bride - many times. There is NOTHING about that coming speaking of a resurrection. Rather, it speaks of many people DYING.

It makes FAR MORE sense that Paul in 1st Corinthians is just giving us MORE INFORMATION about the rapture.

Of course Riberra does not believe in any pretrib coming, so must try to fit all verses concerning His coming into ONE coming at the end. That simply will not work. he comes to FIGHT then, and remain on earth - not to return to heaven.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

...
.

The text was too long to include TPetery's narrative.

Point 1 above: Paul does say all, but who is all? We don't have to guess because PAUL TELLS US.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

There is only two more comings: pretrib FOR His bride and posttrib WITH His bride. Note that in Adam ALL die, but in Christ ALL shall be made alive. So indeed ALL will, but there is a ORDER. Christ was first, then those who belong to Christ at His coming. Refer back to 1 Thes. 4: it is a COMING. Paul is just giving us MORE INFORMATION about the rapture. We cannot pull one verse from this chapter out of its context: the very context is for those who are BORN AGAIN.

John ABSOLUTELY PROVES that this verse is speaking ONLY of those "in Christ." Do we believe John?

Rev. 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

This proves the theory false that ALL humans who have died rise at Christ's coming. John tells us the REST (other than those who died "in Christ" and are a part of the first or most honorable resurrection for the righteous) of the dead (all sinners who have died) will not rise until AFTER the 1000 year reign. When Jesus comes, millions will DIE - not be resurrected! How silly it is to think there is a resurrection at his coming for the battle of Armageddon. Will they DIE and then resurrect in a moment of time? Is that what the bible teaches? Of course it does not.

There are only TWO resurrections: a resurrection for the JUST, (born again people) and a resurrection for the UNJUST (those who rejected God in their life). Those who take part in the first resurrection do not all rise at the same time; JESUS was the first, then those "in Christ" at the rapture next. Then those who refuse the mark and lose their head during the 70th week come next. Those to take part in the last resurrection, the only other resurrection there ever will be, must wait until after the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Point 2 above: this is just extrapolating more error based on the first error. We CANNOT put any part of this out of its context. Yes, it says all, but we most qualify that all by the CONTEXT. To believe this false theory, one must IGNORE what John said, that the rest of the dead don't live until AFTER the 1000 year reign of Christ. How long will it take to be changed? It will happen so suddenly we will not know it! For those in Christ, it will happen the instant we are caught up into the air. We are not going to be caught up to heaven in natural bodies. NO ONE in a flesh and blood body can enter heaven. Therefore we MUST be changed in the rapture event to our resurrection body. Paul wrote:

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption...

Since at the pretrib rapture we are escorted to heaven, we MUST be changed before then. If someone does not believe in the pretrib rapture, they will not have the truth concerning these things.

Point 3 above: A resounding NO! Death is defeated for those "in Christ" at the pretrib rapture! What? Are we going to die again after we are caught up and changed - got our resurrection bodies - and gone to heaven? OF COURSE NOT! Death is defeated the moment we are caught up and changed from mortality to immortality. So just as those who participate in the first resurrection come in waves (as Paul says in ORDER) so death will be defeated in order; there will be some deaths in the millennial reign of Christ, and of course many deaths at the Gog, Magog battle after the 1000 years. So for the sinner, death is not defeated until LONG after it is defeated for those in Christ. if the truth be known, death is defeated for Christians the moment of the rapture.

Always remember, anyone can make the bible say anything if they pull verses out of context. There must be and WILL be natural people in the physical realm still alive to enter into the millennial reign of Christ. There will be babies born. Indeed, the earth must be repopulated.

A) The dead raise from the dead in 1 Cor 15:52 and Rev 20:13.

This is true, but deceiving; there is a thousand years plus between these two verses, but the writer makes it appear as if they are speaking of the same event.

B) Last enemy - Death - defeated in 1 Cor 15:54-55 and Rev 20:14.

Again it is true, but a thousand plus years apart.

Rev 20:13 is about the great, white throne judgment. Indeed, it is written that heaven and earth fled away and NO PLACE was found for them. Do we believe John? Does this writer actually believe that there is NO MORE EARTH in 1 Cor. 15? The truth is, 1 Cor. 15 is about the RAPTURE of the church, and there will be well over 1007 years minimum before the white throne judgment. Of course after the first heaven and first earth are gone, God will create a NEW heaven and earth. It is impossible that 1 Cor. 15 is the same as Rev. 21:1-2.

There is a trumpet in 1 Thes. 4. There is a trumpet in 1 Cor. 15. In 1 Thes. 4 we are caught up and will be escorted to heaven (John 14). It is impossible we are caught up to heaven in our natural body. We are changed the moment we are caught up, exactly as 1 Cor. 15 states.

What kind of a body did Jesus get? It is an important question, for we will get the SAME KIND of body at the rapture. Will it have "flesh?"

Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

Jesus body had FLESH and BONES. This body could EAT FISH and then walk through a wall, and NOT LEAVE THE FISH ON THE WALL! However, Jesus body was a spiritual body, because He would walk through walls. Does this contradict what Paul wrote?

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

No, for Jesus had a spiritual body. But it was a spiritual body made of flesh and bone. The body Jesus got at His resurrection - He will have forever.



Conclusion? When we are raptured and changed, WE WILL HAVE THE SAME KIND OF BODY. It will be FLESH AND BONE, but no blood.


Conclusion: this is the wildest theory I have ever read or heard of. No commentary backs this up. It simply does not fit scripture when taken as a whole.

Gill's commentary on 1 Cor. 15:
This indeed is the Gospel, good news, glad tidings that the bodies of the saints shall be raised again, and made like to the glorious body of Christ; and being reunited to their souls, shall live with him to all eternity;

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,.... As at the coming of Christ, both the bodies of living saints, and of dead ones being raised, will: and this mortal shall have put on immortality; which will be the case, in the resurrection morn:then shall be brought to pass that saying that is written; then that passage will have its full accomplishment, which stands in Isaiah 25:8 where it is read,he will swallow up death in victory, or "for ever". That is, the Messiah shall by his death, and resurrection from the dead, obtain such an entire victory over death, not only for himself, but for all his people,

Guzik (1 Cor. 15)
a. The first perfect man, Adam, gave us one kind of body; the second perfect man (Jesus, the last Adam) can give us another kind of body. He is a life-giving spirit.

b. We have all borne the image of the first Adam, and those who put their trust in the last Adam will also bear His resurrection image. From the first Adam, we all are made of dust, but from the last Adam we can be made heavenly. For believers, the promise is sure: we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.


Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God: Paul is not saying, “material things can not inherit the kingdom of God,” because Jesus’ resurrection body was a material body. Flesh and blood, in this context, means “our present bodies.” Jesus’ resurrection body was not some “pure spirit” body, but a material body described as flesh and bones (Luke 24:39) instead of flesh and blood. This may seem like a small distinction to us, but it must be an important distinction to God.



We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed: Since sleep is a softer way of describing the death of a believer, Paul is telling us that not all Christians will die, but there will be a “final generation” who will be transformed into resurrection bodies at the return of Jesus before they ever face death.


Does we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed mean that Paul predicted Jesus would come in his lifetime? Barclay says yes, and simply points out that Paul was dead wrong here. But Hodge recognizes that Paul isn’t necessarily referring to only believers of his day with all; it is a word that properly embraces all believers, over all time. Secondly, it was right and proper for Paul to live as if the coming of Jesus was imminent, though he did not in fact know when Jesus would return. When writing Scripture, Paul was infallible, but not omniscient.


(Colors are from Guzik's commentary)


Clearly Guzik thinks these verses are for Saints ONLY.

Matthew Henry Commentary:
15:51-58 All the saints should not die, but all would be changed.

Benson Commentary:
“In this noble passage [verse 55] the apostle personifies death and the grave, and introduces the righteous after the resurrection, singing a song of victory over both. In this sublime song, death is represented as a terrible monster, having a deadly sting, wherewith it had destroyed the bodies of the whole human race, and the invisible world as an enemy who had imprisoned their spirits. But the sting being torn from death, and the gates of the invisible world set open by Christ, the bodies of the righteous shall rise from the grave, no more liable to be destroyed by death, and their spirits, being brought out of paradise, the place of their abode, shall reanimate their bodies;

Matthew Poole's Commentary (verse 54)
That is, in an eternal and continuing victory; the saints shall die no more.

Gill on Rev. 20:5
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
But the rest of the dead,.... Meaning not the dead saints, for they will be all raised together, but the wicked dead; and not them as morally or spiritually, but as corporeally dead: theselived not again until the thousand years were finished; so that there will be such an exact term of years between the resurrection of the saints and the resurrection of the wicked; nor will there be any wicked living upon earth, or in bodies, during that time; for the wicked dead will not be raised with the saints at Christ's coming, and the wicked living will be destroyed in the conflagration of the world, and neither of them shall live again until the end of these years.

as in 1 Corinthians 15:12 the righteous will be raised by virtue of union to Christ, in consequence of his having the charge both of their souls and bodies, and in conformity to his glorious body, and to eternal life, which will not be the case of the wicked,

(Emphasis added to commentaries except Guzik)

Guzik Commentary (Rev. 20:5)
b. The rest of the dead: Those who do not have part in the first resurrection are as cursed as those who do have part in it are blessed. They are not blessed, they are under the power of the second death, and they are without privilege.

Conclusion: I can find not one hint of this theory in any commentary. it simply does not fit scripture as a whole.

LAMAD

 

[Riberra]

Originally Posted by Riberra

"I will come again"
Is Jesus Second Coming near the End of the great tribulation
​

Riberra, how hard is it to understand "receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also?"

John 14:2-3 (NKJV)
2) In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.


Do you have enough common sense to combine that with "I will come again" and figure out when Christ returns at the end of the tribulation, He will not make a U-turn going back up to heaven?

Of course He will not make a U-turn going back up to heaven.The caught -up /gathering (rapture) of the Christians still alive and remain is going to happen where Jesus will be at His Second Coming ...In The Air Over Jerusalem (I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also..After that meeting in the air Jesus will descend with those who have received their (resurrected)immortal body and defeat the armies assembled for the battle of Armageddon.

Originally Posted by Riberra

Not everything is defeated immediately at Jesus Second Coming that is why he come to reign during the Millennium
You must use your brain and read carefully what is written in a verse...
1 Corinthians 15:25-26 (NKJV)
25) For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26) The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
​

Exactly! So why would you think 1 Cor 15:51-55 is the rapture if death is not immediately defeated during His second coming?

Death will be defeated only for the Christians at Jesus Second Coming.
The final victory over death and Satan will occurs only after the millennium.

So who's not using a brain reading carefully?

-YOU-

 

[Manasseh_]

Yes, of course we prove all things; we prove you are wrong. Don't EVER make doctrine from Old Testament passage alone: the New Testament makes this subject MUCH clearer. Paul tells us that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. If you do any reading at all, there are now MANY books about people that have died and gone to heaven, but someone prayed them back to their body. They did not miss ONE THOUGHT from being in the body to out of the body.

LAMAD

Paul never stated any such thing, He said that he was CONFIDENT and WILLING to be absent from the flesh and to be present with the Lord.......Paul was confident and sure that there will be a resurrection through Christ and he also stated that there is an appointed time for this event to occur........immortality is a GIFT from God through Christ, your false premise implies that ALL men are already immortal, hence then God created both righteous and wicked men with immortality(given both this gift)..........God certainly didn't tell Adam that only his body would die but he would still go on living after.......concerning your ridiculous statement about doctrine from the OT......the Pharisees believed in a resurrection, not to mention all the servants that God taught about life and death before there ever was a NT, the NT doesn't contradict what the OT taught........ the problem is with the false immortal soul doctrine and the contradictions that it creates against all scripture

 

[Manasseh_]

Death is most certainly defeated at Jesus pretrib coming FOR His bride - but that is ONLY for those "in Christ." And 1 Cor. gives a much deeper explanation of exactly what happens to those who are alive and "in Christ" who are changed from mortal into immortality: we get a resurrection body just like Jesus got when He rose.

LAMAD

.........already contradicting yourself, before you responded to my post and said we're already immortal, now here you say we're changed from mortal to immortal......certainly wouldn't need to be changed to something I already am..................

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 387:

I have read of His coming in Rev 19 - His coming WITH His Bride - many times.

Note that Jesus' coming FOR his bride and WITH his bride will occur at the same 2nd coming. For 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It is because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

iamlamad said in post 387:

I have read of His coming in Rev 19 - His coming WITH His Bride - many times. There is NOTHING about that coming speaking of a resurrection.

Note that the 2nd-coming resurrected church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16) is mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6, just as the 2nd-coming married church is mentioned in Revelation 19:7.

Also, Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean that only those people in the church who will be beheaded by the Antichrist will be resurrected in the 1st resurrection and reign with Jesus during the millennium. For the 1st resurrection will be the physical resurrection of the dead of the entire church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). And every obedient person in the church (of all times) will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10).

Also, Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean that the 1st resurrection will happen sometime after Revelation 19:7 to 20:3. For just as the gathering together (rapture) of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will happen right before Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, so will the 1st resurrection. For the resurrection of the church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52) will immediately precede the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Revelation 20:4-6 simply means that the obedient part of the church (of all times), which by that time will have already been resurrected, gathered together, and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7), will then live and reign with him on the earth during the millennium. In Revelation 20:4, the original Greek word (zao: G2198) translated as "and they lived" means just that. It doesn't mean "and they resurrected" at the time of Revelation 20:4-6. After those resurrected in the 1st resurrection have lived through the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), everyone else who has ever died will be resurrected in a 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

Similarly, in Revelation 20:5, there is no Greek word for "again", because the original Greek word (zao: G2198) translated as "lived" (not) doesn't in itself refer to the act of resurrection, but simply means being alive. The act of resurrection for those referred to in Revelation 20:5a is only implied by comparison to the subsequent reference in the same verse to the 1st "resurrection" (anastasis: G0386).

iamlamad said in post 387:

Of course Riberra does not believe in any pretrib coming, so must try to fit all verses concerning His coming into ONE coming at the end. That simply will not work. he comes to FIGHT then, and remain on earth - not to return to heaven.

Do you mean that the rapture will take believers into the 3rd heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b)? If so, note that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

*******

iamlamad said in post 388:

In 1 Thes. 4 we are caught up and will be escorted to heaven (John 14).

Note that there is no pre-tribulation idea in John 14:3, just as there is no "take you back" (somewhere). Instead, there is only a coming again of Jesus (i.e. his 2nd coming), and then a receiving of the church unto himself. Also, the pre-tribulation rapture view can't claim that the rapture is referred to only by Paul, and then admit that John 14:3 refers to the rapture.

John 14:2 means that one of the reasons that Jesus left was to prepare a place for the church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, God the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means that Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the church means that he is not done with the church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means that the church will be received to Jesus where he will be first at his 2nd coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), before he lands on the earth at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the millennium, the physically resurrected church will be ruling on the present earth with the returned Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Also, the church has already come to God the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). Also, the souls of obedient people in the church go to God the Father's house when they die, for their souls go into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2).

 

[TPeterY]

This is beyond their comprehension .... this "on" the last day stuff is a concoction made by the post-tribulation teacher .... "on" the last day is never used in scripture

LOL

We see this often on this forum. A couple of them regularly preach John 6:40,44 & 54 "I will raise him up at the last day" as if it's the rapture.

I guess they must think Christ will return to resurrect that one lucky guy whoever the him may be.

And John 6 is not even about prophecy.


.

 

[Daniel1136]

It is strange how people are focused and determined to fight against the Lord's promise [Revelation 3:10] .... even to the extent that these even call the Lord a liar

I always think about Genesis 3 when I hear the accusation if you know what I mean

Sounds like they might be on the other side over the biggest issue debated .... why would anyone even think to do this thing?

There is something very suspect going on with those who seek the Lord's unprecedented tribulation .... some force has a grip on them

The Lord's coming hour of trial and judgment is designed to punish a world of unbelief and not to "purify" a few believers as they say they are

The argument is all one sided

They will tell you that true believers who look for the Lord's call for them before the tribulation are ignorant and will give up their salvation if the tribulation starts and there is no call .... this is absurd ... no true believer will ever give up on the Lord no matter what

Those professing only would be more likely to abandon their pretended faith

Hopefully the ones who deny the Lord's promise will take His advice and repent after they find them selves in the tribulation [Revelation 3:15-19]

However, the setting of the period will not be conducive for it .... the confusion, vexation, up upheaval, and deceptions will abound .... and Revelation's account does not reflect much evidence for it .... billions will be killed and lost forever

Will some turn in the tribulation? .... yes .... and particularly some of Israel and revelation tells

Of course most against the Lord's "harpazo" action are of replacement theology so they think they are Israel ... these two ideas go hand in hand and are both false

They say the Lord will protect them in the tribulation, however Revelation's account tells the opposite .... protection is not loosing one's head

144000 of the children of Israel will be protected for their mission, but there is no other account of protection during during the period

And they tell that the tribulation is not the Lord's doing at all, yet the scriptural account plainly tells where the judgments are coming from

Even to the extent that the tribulation is caused by Satan, but who will only be the Lord's dupe in the process and cast to the earth to experience his own defeat

So the story of no "rapture" and to seek the tribulation for you purification is very suspect of something going on behind the curtain [by the way a true believer needs no judgment for further "purification" .... this idea is not the gospel of Jesus Christ]

 

[n2thelight]

It is strange how people are focused and determined to fight against the Lord's promise [Revelation 3:10] .... even to the extent that these even call the Lord a liar

I always think about Genesis 3 when I hear the accusation if you know what I mean

Sounds like they might be on the other side over the biggest issue debated .... why would anyone even think to do this thing?

There is something very suspect going on with those who seek the Lord's unprecedented tribulation .... some force has a grip on them

The Lord's coming hour of trial and judgment is designed to punish a world of unbelief and not to "purify" a few believers as they say they are

The argument is all one sided

They will tell you that true believers who look for the Lord's call for them before the tribulation are ignorant and will give up their salvation if the tribulation starts and there is no call .... this is absurd ... no true believer will ever give up on the Lord no matter what

Those professing only would be more likely to abandon their pretended faith

Hopefully the ones who deny the Lord's promise will take His advice and repent after they find them selves in the tribulation [Revelation 3:15-19]

However, the setting of the period will not be conducive for it .... the confusion, vexation, up upheaval, and deceptions will abound .... and Revelation's account does not reflect much evidence for it .... billions will be killed and lost forever

Will some turn in the tribulation? .... yes .... and particularly some of Israel and revelation tells

Of course most against the Lord's "harpazo" action are of replacement theology so they think they are Israel ... these two ideas go hand in hand and are both false

They say the Lord will protect them in the tribulation, however Revelation's account tells the opposite .... protection is not loosing one's head

144000 of the children of Israel will be protected for their mission, but there is no other account of protection during during the period

And they tell that the tribulation is not the Lord's doing at all, yet the scriptural account plainly tells where the judgments are coming from

Even to the extent that the tribulation is caused by Satan, but who will only be the Lord's dupe in the process and cast to the earth to experience his own defeat

So the story of no "rapture" and to seek the tribulation for you purification is very suspect of something going on behind the curtain [by the way a true believer needs no judgment for further "purification" .... this idea is not the gospel of Jesus Christ]

Yet Christ says He returns after the tribulation....Christians have always gone and continue to go through tribulation to this very day

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."


Mark 13:37 "And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."

God's wrath and the tribulation are two totally different things

• Romans 5:3 (KJV)
  
  And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
• Romans 12:12 (KJV)
  
  Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
• Ephesians 3:13 (KJV)
  
  Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
• Judges 10:14 (KJV)
  
  Go and cry unto the gods which ye have chosen; let them deliver you in the time of your tribulation.
• Mark 13:24 (KJV)
  
  But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
• 1 Thessalonians 3:4 (KJV)
  
  For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
• 2 Thessalonians 1:4 (KJV)
  
  So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
• 2 Thessalonians 1:6 (KJV)
  
  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
• Matthew 13:21 (KJV)
  
  Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
• Matthew 24:21 (KJV)
  
  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
• John 16:33 (KJV)
  
  These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
• Acts 14:22 (KJV)
  
  Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
• Romans 2:9 (KJV)
  
  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
• Romans 8:35 (KJV)
  
  Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
• 2 Corinthians 1:4 (KJV)
  
  Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
• 2 Corinthians 7:4 (KJV)
  
  Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.
• Revelation 2:9 (KJV)
  
  I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
• Revelation 2:22 (KJV)
  
  Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
• Deuteronomy 4:30 (KJV)
  
  When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the Lord thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
• 1 Samuel 10:19 (KJV)
  
  And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the Lord by your tribes, and by your thousands.
• 1 Samuel 26:24 (KJV)
  
  And, behold, as thy life was much set by this day in mine eyes, so let my life be much set by in the eyes of the Lord, and let him deliver me out of all tribulation.
• Matthew 24:29 (KJV)
  
  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
• Revelation 1:9 (KJV)
  
  I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
• Revelation 7:14 (KJV)
  
  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
• Revelation 2:10 (KJV)
  
  Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Now,what part of tribulation don't you all understand,and where exactly does it say we escape?

 

[Bible2]

Daniel1136 said in post 394:

It is strange how people are focused and determined to fight against the Lord's promise [Revelation 3:10] ....

Regarding Revelation 3:10, note that the 7 epistles to 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is today western Turkey).

Revelation 3:10 meant that the literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) would be kept safe from a persecution which came upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman emperor Domitian. For the apostle John saw his Revelation vision (Revelation 1:1) near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and Domitian persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The righteous, literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) had to suffer and die in that persecution over a period of 10 literal days (Revelation 2:10).

The 1st century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (Greek: "ek") that persecution. For, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (John 17:15,20). Also, the 1st century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself or from the earth in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, for example, a student in a classroom who has been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself or from the classroom in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him.

Also, the 1st century AD persecution of Revelation 3:10 (and Revelation 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (cf. Luke 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Revelation 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman empire, as opposed to those Christians who had already died and gone to heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

Daniel1136 said in post 394:

It is strange how people are focused and determined to fight against the Lord's promise [Revelation 3:10] ....

Regarding "the Lord's promise", the mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them, and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers completely unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

Daniel1136 said in post 394:

There is something very suspect going on with those who seek the Lord's unprecedented tribulation ....

Note that no Christians are hoping for the tribulation instead of Jesus' 2nd coming, even though those Christians who (rightly) hold to the post-tribulation rapture view know that the tribulation must come first (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13). For a Christian (whether male or female) who holds to the post-tribulation rapture view is like a pregnant woman nearing the end of her term. She isn't hoping for birthing pains instead of the birth of her child, but she knows that birthing pains must come first (John 16:21-22, Isaiah 26:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23).

Also, Job should be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). Just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chapters 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10). And during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

By the power of Satan working against Job (Job 1:12), he first suffered the loss of his wealth and servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14,15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But he remained patient through all his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).

Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was over, giving him twice as much wealth as he had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3) and the same number of children as he had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren (Job 42:16). While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought that his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against him, for he was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the suffering of obedient Christians won't be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:9,17, cf. Revelation 2:10).

God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job in order to prove that Job didn't love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all his wealth, family, and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the future tribulation. They will need to continue to love God even when he allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") to make war against Biblical Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6). Christians must so love God and so trust him that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43).

Christians mustn't love their mortal lives to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians mustn't love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their families from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians mustn't love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus Christ requires Christians to forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 Corinthians 15:3).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

Daniel1136 said in post 394:

144000 of the children of Israel will be protected for their mission . . .

Note that the 144,000 will all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will all be part of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8, during the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Also, the 144,000, who are of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4-8), can include both Jews and Gentiles in the church. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they are from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

 

[Bible2]

Daniel1136 said in post 394:

144000 of the children of Israel will be protected for their mission, but there is no other account of protection during during the period

While at the future point in time of Revelation 7:2-4, only the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:1,4) will be sealed for physical protection, all obedient people in the church will still be spiritually protected during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). Also, before Revelation 7:2-4 happens, the 144,000, along with some others, will be physically protected so that they will survive the tribulation's first stage (in Revelation 6), while others will die and their souls will enter heaven (Revelation 7:9,14). It is near the end of this first stage that the 144,000 will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection before the unsealing of the 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). The first 6 trumpets' events, up to Revelation 9:19, will be the tribulation's 2nd stage. The seal which the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of the Holy Spirit himself which they and all others in the church receive: Ephesians 1:13) will physically protect them during this 2nd stage (Revelation 9:4).

After the 2nd stage, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to God's throne in heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:1). Right after the 144,000 are caught up, the tribulation's 3rd stage, the literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will begin (Revelation 12:5-6). This time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13).

The 144,000 will remain in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, Textus Receptus) during the time of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-18), while 2 other parts of the church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents those in the church who will flee into prepared wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14); and the remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17), those in the church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected, but will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

After the Antichrist's reign is declared legally over at the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). These vials (Revelation 16) will be the tribulation's 4th and final stage. Because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of these vials will be directed at those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). So some in the church will survive the entire future tribulation on the earth. They are those who will still be "alive and remain" at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (Psalms 91) without having to have been part of the 144,000.

Daniel1136 said in post 394:

And they tell that the tribulation is not the Lord's doing at all, yet the scriptural account plainly tells where the judgments are coming from

Note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing the seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. The day of the Lord itself won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

 

[shturt678s]

Only an opinion, I have God's rightious wrath = "tribulation"

"God's wrath from heaven" this very moment: IIThess.2:11, 12; Rev.6:2, and Rev.8:7-9:21 this very moment especially in light of IIThess.2:10b.

Old Jack

 

[kingdomwitness]

Have you read 2 Thessalonians 3:3-12? Paul warned of a great deception. He said that The Day of Christ will not come until the fall away from the faith and the lawless man (Antichrist) will be revealed. Also read Matthew 24:29-31. The Sign of The Son of Man appears after the Tribulation according to Matthew 24:29-31.

 

[shturt678s]

Have you read 2 Thessalonians 3:3-12? Paul warned of a great deception. He said that The Day of Christ will not come until the fall away from the faith and the lawless man (Antichrist) will be revealed. Also read Matthew 24:29-31. The Sign of The Son of Man appears after the Tribulation according to Matthew 24:29-31.

Have you scrutinized Rev.8:7-9:21? It's only expounding IIThess.2:11, 12.

Old Jack's opinion....at the bottom of the pecking order

 

[Bible2]

kingdomwitness said in post 399:

Have you read 2 Thessalonians 3:3-12? Paul warned of a great deception. He said that The Day of Christ will not come until the fall away from the faith and the lawless man (Antichrist) will be revealed.

Great point.

Regarding a great deception, Christians need to be aware that during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), even though the world will consciously and openly worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), this won't require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil, or will turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, he isn't the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that he is the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this wouldn't require that the Antichrist deny Jesus' 2nd coming. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of Jesus' 2nd coming, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus returned. And he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). This is one reason why it is important to know when and how the real Jesus' 2nd coming will happen (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

The person whom the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who commanded people to commit genocide and kill babies (1 Samuel 15:3), whereas Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)". The truth is that Jesus confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31), and that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). Jesus died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (Isaiah 53; 1 Peter 2:24). And he rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (e.g. Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Jesus died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14), which YHWH had foretold from even the first book of the Old Testament (Genesis 3:15).

Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH, and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). Satan may be worshipped not as "Satan", which most everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could falsely say that it is YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind.

Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) instead (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), they could falsely say that (the non-mortal flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

But the truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18). Jesus Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus Christ identified himself with only the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4). Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (cf. John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24), returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine "Son" of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as YHWH God (the Son) along with YHWH God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

Near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20 to 20:3).