Quoting Calvin

[Hammster]

If you don't know the English definition of propitiation, I could see it being confusing and would recommend that you look at the rest of the Greek definitions for the various terms/verses involved which I already posted.

Basically, propitiation in I John 2:2, I Jn 4:10, Rom 3:25, and Rom 9:5 is a noun, not a verb. It refers to some form of offering or object (Such as a sacrifice) to appease (satisfy) an offended party. In the case of the last two verses, it can also refer to the place satisfaction is made, such as the mercy seat.

"Make propitiation" in Heb 2:17 and Lk 18:13 is a verb, not a noun.

The noun refers to the object or method through which satisfaction comes. The verb refers to the action of making satisfaction.

As shown repeatedly throughout scripture, the object's existence alone or the existence of a place satisfaction is made does not automatically mean that satisfaction is or will be made.

In the case of Jesus as the (noun) sacrifice (innocent who died) for the sins of the whole world, the blood had to be applied to the mercy seat for the actual satisfaction to take place. And that satisfaction only covers those in God's kingdom who are under Christ the High priest, which we become part of by receiving the sacrifice through faith (Rom 9:25.)

Then you can't say He was the propitiation for the whole world. You admit that only those in the kingdom are no longer under God's wrath.

It's a form of limited atonement.

 

[Truthfrees]

No, I'm saying that if Christ's death satisfied God's wrath, there would be nobody in hell. Hell is a punishment for sin. If Christ bore the punishment, what would they be in hell for?

yes i understand the reasoning you are using - it makes sense from one angle

so that is why scripture says He paid for the whole world - and many are called but few are chosen

the price has been paid for each person's release from hell and entrance to heaven - but each person has to accept Jesus to pick up their freedom ticket

if they reject Jesus and His freedom ticket they die in their sins

it's their way of throwing Christ's blood/grace/sacrifice under their feet and trampling it

it's their choice to make

which means anyone who ends up in hell is without excuse

God will not have sent them to hell/chosen hell for them

they will have sent themselves to hell/chosen hell for themselves

iow only those who reject God's call will chose hell for themselves - and reject being in the "chosen"

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Then you can't say He was the propitiation for the whole world. You admit that only those in the kingdom are no longer under God's wrath.

It's a form of limited atonement.

The question was whether Jesus died for everyone's sins or not, not whether the whole world was still under God's wrath or not. Scripture clearly says that those without faith remain under condemnation (John 3:16.) It looks like you have moved the goalpost to argue against an entirely different topic which no one has claimed!

Propitiation is a noun in I John 2:2. Scripture clearly says, "He is the propitiation/atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

Hence, Jesus' sacrificial death was for the whole world. Again, the object of appeasement (the blood sacrifice in this case) doesn't automatically mean appeasement has been made on its own. It usually needs an outside factor to actually take the object and make appeasement or 'cover' with it (oil to the forehead, pitch to the ark, blood to the doorpost, blood on the mercy seat, etc.)

Jesus actually "makes propitiation" as a verb - that is, uses the object of propitiation (His own blood) to appease - in Heb 2:17. This appeasement (not His death) is restricted to those in God's kingdom. We must receive the sacrifice by faith (Rom 9:25) to have this act of Jesus as High Priest apply to us.

 

[Truthfrees]

Then you can't say He was the propitiation for the whole world. You admit that only those in the kingdom are no longer under God's wrath.

It's a form of limited atonement.

both sides could claim the other has limited atonement

if Christ only paid for the sins of a few - the chosen - and not the whole world - that would seem like limited atonement to me

Christ paying for the sins of all - and many rejecting the awesome free gift via rejecting Jesus - seems like a full atonement provided for all

even Noah's ark is an example of salvation being offered to all but many chose to reject it - and then it was too late for them too

 

[Hammster]

yes i understand the reasoning you are using - it makes sense from one angle

so that is why scripture says He paid for the whole world - and many are called but few are chosen

the price has been paid for each person's release from hell and entrance to heaven - but each person has to accept Jesus to pick up their freedom ticket

if they reject Jesus and His freedom ticket they die in their sins

it's their way of throwing Christ's blood/grace/sacrifice under their feet and trampling it

it's their choice to make

which means anyone who ends up in hell is without excuse

God will not have sent them to hell/chosen hell for them

they will have sent themselves to hell/chosen hell for themselves

iow only those who reject God's call will chose hell for themselves - and reject being in the "chosen"

“"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41, 46‬ ‭NASB‬‬


This is Christ sending them to hell. They are not sending themselves.

Plus, you've just made the atonement something it's not. Christ didn't pay for sins. He wasn't a propitiation or an expiation. He just made folks savable, relying on their own actions to actually save them. Propitiation in 1 John means nothing.

 

[Hammster]

The question was whether Jesus died for everyone's sins or not, not whether the whole world was still under God's wrath or not. Scripture clearly says that those without faith remain under condemnation (John 3:16.) It looks like you have moved the goalpost to argue against an entirely different topic which no one has claimed!

Propitiation is a noun in I John 2:2. Scripture clearly says, "He is the propitiation/atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

Hence, Jesus' sacrificial death was for the whole world. Again, the object of appeasement (the blood sacrifice in this case) doesn't automatically mean appeasement has been made on its own. It usually needs an outside factor to actually take the object and make appeasement or 'cover' with it (oil to the forehead, pitch to the ark, blood to the doorpost, blood on the mercy seat, etc.)

Jesus actually "makes propitiation" as a verb - that is, uses the object of propitiation (His own blood) to appease - in Heb 2:17. This appeasement (not His death) is restricted to those in God's kingdom. We must receive the sacrifice by faith (Rom 9:5) to have this act of Jesus as High Priest apply to us.

“whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

You'll have to explain what this has to do with the subject.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

both sides could claim the other has limited atonement

if Christ only paid for the sins of a few - the chosen - and not the whole world - that would seem like limited atonement to me

Christ paying for the sins of all - and many rejecting the awesome free gift via rejecting Jesus - seems like a full atonement provided for all

even Noah's ark is an example of salvation being offered to all but many chose to reject it - and then it was too late for them too

Exactly.

Christians (Calvinist or not) generally hold to some form of limited atonement. Very few (universalists mainly, or those who think God just won't punish sin) believe that all people everywhere are atoned for - and those views are generally considered heresy by Christians at large.

The big difference is that TULIP treats atonement/making propitiation (verb) and atoning sacrifice/propitiation (noun) as equivalents, so restricts the number of people that Jesus was the atoning sacrifice for.

For non-Calvinists (with some variations on the particulars of the theory) the atoning sacrifice on its own is not equivalent to receiving atonement, so Jesus was the sacrifice for all sins (died for all) but only those who receive the sacrifice in faith are covered by the blood.

One way I have seen the big difference explained is that in TULIP, God does the limiting on atonement by Jesus only dying for a select chosen few. For anyone chosen/elect, the atonement happened at the cross and was complete. For those not Jesus' death doesn't apply to them and they
can't ever be atoned for. In other theories, both God and man limit the 'effectual' atonement. Man by refusing to receive the blood in faith, God by setting up the rules that only those who receive the blood in faith are atoned for by Christ the High priest through His own blood.

That is, TULIP's limited atonement is limited in the extent of the offer (Jesus only died for some men) but complete in effect (Jesus' death immediately caused complete atonement for those select few), whereas others hold that the atonement was unlimited in offer (Jesus died as atoning sacrifice for all men) but limited in application (Only those who receive the blood in faith receive atonement so as to satisfy God's requirements.)

However, to distinguish the concept from the Calvinist theory of 'Limited Atonement,' the phrase 'Unlimited atonement' is often used to present theories that show the atonement to be unlimited in offer, though limited in application.

 

[Truthfrees]

“"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41, 46‬ ‭NASB‬‬


This is Christ sending them to hell. They are not sending themselves.

Plus, you've just made the atonement something it's not. Christ didn't pay for sins. He wasn't a propitiation or an expiation. He just made folks savable, relying on their own actions to actually save them. Propitiation in 1 John means nothing.

salvation is by grace through faith, not by works lest anyone boast - Ephesians 2:8-9

it doesn't say God chose it for them - they chose it full well knowing the outcome - Romans 1:32, Romans 1:19-21

here it says "I never knew you" which indicates to me they rejected Jesus and only had a form of godliness but denied/rejected/said no to the POWER thereof - Matthew 7:21-23, 2 Timothy 3:2-5

 

[Hammster]

salvation is by grace through faith, not by works lest anyone boast - Romans 3:22

it doesn't say God chose it for them - they chose it full well knowing the outcome - Romans 1:28-32, 2 Peter 2:21

here it says "I never knew you" which indicates to me they rejected Jesus and only had a form of godliness but denied/rejected/said no to the POWER thereof - Matthew 7:21-23, 2 Timothy 3:5

Can you quote the verses so we can look at context?

 

[amariselle]

I didn't say that. But I should be clearer. There's no mention in any evangelism in the NT that Christ died for all. In other words, that's not how the gospel is presented. So trying to pretend that it's how Paul presented it to the Corinthians is just that...pretend.

Why would anyone bother to preach the Gospel at all if salvation through faith in Christ is not available to all? Doesn't even sound like "good news" period.

 

[Truthfrees]

Can you quote the verses so we can look at context?

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9

it doesn't say God chose it for them - they chose it full well knowing the outcome -
32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. - Romans 1:32
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. - Romans 1:19-21

here it says "I never knew you" which indicates to me they rejected Jesus and only had a form of godliness but denied/rejected/said no to the POWER thereof -
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ - Matthew 7:21-23,
2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! - 2 Timothy 3:2-5

the point is that people know what they are doing when they reject God and His truth

they have no excuse

everyone going to hell/being told to depart/told i never knew you - all knew better because God made sure they knew better - that they were rejecting Him - and that God didn't force them to reject Him - they freely chose

 

[Hammster]

Why would anyone bother to preach the Gospel at all if salvation through faith in Christ is not available to all? Doesn't even sound like "good news" period.

Why isn't it good news?

 

[amariselle]

Why isn't it good news?

Well, I suppose it is for the small "elect" few. It certainly is not for the multitudes God either "passes over" or has specifically predestined for eternal damnation.

Not much reason to go out into the world and share the Gospel in any case. If Calvinism is right, God doesn't even want most people to hear the Gospel and receive salvation.

 

[Hammster]

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9

it doesn't say God chose it for them - they chose it full well knowing the outcome -
32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. - Romans 1:32
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. - Romans 1:19-21

here it says "I never knew you" which indicates to me they rejected Jesus and only had a form of godliness but denied/rejected/said no to the POWER thereof -
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ - Matthew 7:21-23,
2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! - 2 Timothy 3:2-5

We were discussing the atonement. I'm not sure how this fits in.

 

[Hammster]

Well, I suppose it is for the small "elect" few. It certainly is not for the multitudes God either "passes over" or has specifically predestined for eternal damnation.

Not much reason to go out into the world and share the Gospel in any case. If Calvinism is right, God doesn't even want most people to hear the Gospel and receive salvation.

Faith comes by hearing. How else will folks be saved?

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Can you quote the verses so we can look at context?

There are convenient hyperlinks to the verses, plus they can be easily looked up in a physical or online Bible.

Rom 3:19-26

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God."

[While 'whole world' can be restricted to Judea, the known civilized world, etc. if the context makes that clear - we can safely assume that in this case everyone in the world (not just the Jews) is under the law and accountable to God.]

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify."

[The Law and the Prophets do not testify only to believers - indeed the Pharisees and those calling for Jesus to be crucified had access to the law and the Prophets. This knowledge of a different way to have the righteousness of God, then, is testified to everyone, not just believers.]

Rom 3:22 "This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe."

[Though testified to all, the righteousness is only given to those who believe. It's not given prior to faith, nor is the testimony restricted to those who will have faith.]

"There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

[all have sinned (not a select few) and all have free justification through the redemption that came by Jesus. No sinner is without the ability to be redeemed through faith in Jesus Christ.]

"God publically displayed Christ as a sacrifice of atonement through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith."

[Rom 3:25 has been brought up a number of times. Though God presented Christ to all to fulfill His purpose, Christ's blood must be received by faith.]

"He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

[God is just in punishing those who do not believe as they remain under condemnation (Jn 3:16), and He is the one who justifies those who have faith in Christ by granting them the imputed righteousness of Christ (Rom 4:11, Rom 4:24, Phil 3:9, etc.]

"Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith."
What does it mean in Rom 3:27 that boasting is excluded because of the law that requires faith?

See also: What does it mean that it is by grace we have been saved, through faith, and that this is not of ourselves but is the gift of God?

 

[amariselle]

Faith comes by hearing. How else will folks be saved?

I agree. The issue with Calvinism is that the majority of people cannot be saved by hearing, because God either "passes over" them, or has created them specifically to go to eternal damnation. Their "predestination" to damnation means that there is absolutely no way they can or ever will be saved, whether they hear the Gospel or not.

Pretty hopeless.

 

[Truthfrees]

We were discussing the atonement. I'm not sure how this fits in.

the point is that people know what they are doing when they reject God and His truth

they have no excuse

everyone going to hell/being told to depart/told i never knew you - all knew better because God made sure they knew better - that they were rejecting Him - and that God didn't force them to reject Him - they freely chose

 

[Hammster]

There are convenient hyperlinks to the verses, plus they can be easily looked up in a physical or online Bible.

Rom 3:19-26

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God."

[While 'whole world' can be restricted to Judea, the known civilized world, etc. if the context makes that clear - we can safely assume that in this case everyone in the world (not just the Jews) is under the law and accountable to God.]

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify."

[The Law and the Prophets do not testify only to believers - indeed the Pharisees and those calling for Jesus to be crucified had access to the law and the Prophets. This knowledge of a different way to have the righteousness of God, then, is testified to everyone, not just believers.]

Rom 3:22 "This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe."

[Though testified to all, the righteousness is only given to those who believe. It's not given prior to faith, nor is the testimony restricted to those who will have faith.]

"There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

[all have sinned (not a select few) and all have free justification through the redemption that came by Jesus. No sinner is without the ability to be redeemed through faith in Jesus Christ.]

"God publically displayed Christ as a sacrifice of atonement through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith."

[Rom 3:25 has been brought up a number of times. Though God presented Christ to all to fulfill His purpose, Christ's blood must be received by faith.]

"He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

[God is just in punishing those who do not believe as they remain under condemnation (Jn 3:16), and He is the one who justifies those who have faith in Christ by granting them the imputed righteousness of Christ (Rom 4:11, Rom 4:24, Phil 3:9, etc.]

"Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith."
What does it mean in Rom 3:27 that boasting is excluded because of the law that requires faith?

See also: What does it mean that it is by grace we have been saved, through faith, and that this is not of ourselves but is the gift of God?

Okay. I'm not sure if your point as it pertains to this discussion.

 

[Hammster]

I agree. The issue with Calvinism is that the majority of people cannot be saved by hearing, because God either "passes over" them, or has created them specifically to go to eternal damnation. Their "predestination" to damnation means that there is absolutely no way they can or ever will be saved, whether they hear the Gospel or not.

Pretty hopeless.

Do you think everyone is entitled to hear in the same manner then?