questions for those who pray to "Saints"

[Albion]

What can I tell you. All I have gotten in response from my exegesis of numerous passages is "No, they don't say that."

Well, actually they don't. Would you be interested in you and I looking at them together--and closely--to see who is right about this?[/quote]

 

[christianmomof3]

to repeat, I recounted my own experience.

Yes, it is in post #3. Thank you for sharing it.

 

[E.C.]

That's wrong. There never was a consensus on that.

Heavenly beings we may call Saints, but not necessarily deceased humans, pray.
Saints offer prayers on our behalf.
Saints may be aware that we here do pray.

We do not know or agree that Saints hear our individual prayers -- whether addressed to them or to God--and then intercede with the Father as a result.

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.


Oh wait! As per the following line(s) in this post:

It really doesn't matter if someone saw a vision, addressed relics, thought about what an angel might do for him, spoke to an angel, had a dream, or anything like these events.

All that is germaine to this discussion is whether the Bible shows us anyone PRAYING to the deceased or to spirits.

Pretty much anything not in the Bible does not matter!

So long Nicene Creed! It was great knowing ya. You helped many refute heresies since 325 and your finalization in 381.
Have a good day Archbishop of Canterbury! Your town was never mentioned in any of the seventy-three books of the Bible, thus you have nor deserve any leadership importance at all.
Adios Biblical Canon! The books which you said are good and not good were never explicitly mentioned in the very book which you created.

Now, what do all three of these have in common?
1) They are all the source of Tradition (broadly used definition here for the context picking types)
2) None are explicitly mentioned in the Bible.
3) They should all be thrown out using the rational of Sola Scriptura-ists that anything not in the Bible is irrelevant.

I suppose that it is similar to proving the existence of God to an athiest.
But, we are Christians.
We know God.
And we have the Bible to prove that He exists and we have other members of the Body, the church who also can help to support His existence.

What I asked for in this thread was Biblical support or personal experience of "Saints".

So far I have seen neither.

I am sorry that the overall Orthodox population of Christian Forums has either not been blessed like this nor is sharing.

Perhaps you should try to visit an Orthodox parish and ask around?

There probably is not one verse that explicitly says "thou shalt pray to the Saints in heaven" (I wouldn't know, I haven't read the whole thing) but, there are verses that point in the direction of support and there are 2,000 years worth of stories, experiences and so forth of people whom have been blessed by God with a visit from their saint or a saint in some way, shape or form.

I think that having read of a few, that is evidence and validation enough.

 

[Uphill Battle]

So you are arguing my intent after I explained it. I can think of only one reason for you to do so, and it isn't a good one.

Now, back to MY point, which is that the assumed grounding of the argument- prove it from the bible- is both impossible and presumptive- for anything.

Is the bible the "pillar and ground of truth?"

you're right. I'm being unfair.

apologies.

 

[christianmomof3]

I am sorry that the overall Orthodox population of Christian Forums has either not been blessed like this nor is sharing.

Perhaps you should try to visit an Orthodox parish and ask around?

There probably is not one verse that explicitly says "thou shalt pray to the Saints in heaven" (I wouldn't know, I haven't read the whole thing) but, there are verses that point in the direction of support and there are 2,000 years worth of stories, experiences and so forth of people whom have been blessed by God with a visit from their saint or a saint in some way, shape or form.

I think that having read of a few, that is evidence and validation enough.

I personally do not rely on the experiences of other people or on stories to validate my belief.
I know God and experience Him and that validates my belief - not other people's stories.
God should be real to you because He is and because you personally know Him - not because of stuff that other people tell you.
I have read the entire Bible several times and I highly suggest that you do so also.
I am currently reading it following a chronological reading plan and it is really neat and interesting to read it that way.

It does not seem that you have had your own experiences of "Saints" either or else if you have, you have not been willing to share them either. And that is ok.

But, I really strongly suggest that you read the entire Bible as soon as possible. Start now and either follow some sort of read in one year or in two years or whatever - reading plan and read it through. Pray as you read it and ask the Lord to guide you and that you will be washed by the water of the word each time you read it and that the Lord will show you more and more of Himself as you read His word.
I am praying for you that you will come to know the living Lord in a real and living way.

 

[E.C.]

I personally do not rely on the experiences of other people or on stories to validate my belief.
I know God and experience Him and that validates my belief - not other people's stories.
God should be real to you because He is and because you personally know Him - not because of stuff that other people tell you.

Not validation in belief in God, but validation in belief that the saints not only know of our prayers, can hear them, pray on them, but also at times (if God sees fit) may visit or something like that.

That's the validation I was referring to (sorry if I confused ya )

I have read the entire Bible several times and I highly suggest that you do so also.

I am currently reading it following a chronological reading plan and it is really neat and interesting to read it that way.

Cool. I'll take it up with my Spiritual Father.

The last thing that he recommended that I read has helped me to become a better person in many areas of my life.

It does not seem that you have had your own experiences of "Saints" either or else if you have, you have not been willing to share them either. And that is ok.

But, I really strongly suggest that you read the entire Bible as soon as possible. Start now and either follow some sort of read in one year or in two years or whatever - reading plan and read it through. Pray as you read it and ask the Lord to guide you and that you will be washed by the water of the word each time you read it and that the Lord will show you more and more of Himself as you read His word.
I am praying for you that you will come to know the living Lord in a real and living way.

Like I said, I'll take it up with my SF. The opinion and instruction of any SF to the Average George Orthodox is valued and respected more than the Average Joe on the street.

But please, allow me to walk this spiritual road that I'm on. It has helped me and made me a better person and I pray that it will continue to do so (also ask for St. Constantine to pray and may more!)

 

[Albion]

Not validation in belief in God, but validation in belief that the saints not only know of our prayers, can hear them, pray on them, but also at times (if God sees fit) may visit or something like that.

That's the validation I was referring to (sorry if I confused ya )

OK, and I respect your desire to walk your own walk of faith, but if we could all let down our denominational guards at this point, do you not appreciate even a little the perception we have? That is to say, that even though the Bible is agreed to by everyone here to be divine revelation, we reformed Christians spend a lot of time being told not to trust it by Christians who, at the same time as they are saying something along those lines, are confortable taking the word of some neighbor about a matter as dubious as dealings with spirits -- calling THAT human testimony adequate "validation." (If I understood you correctly when you used that term.)

 

[christianmomof3]

Cool. I'll take it up with my Spiritual Father.

The last thing that he recommended that I read has helped me to become a better person in many areas of my life.


Like I said, I'll take it up with my SF. The opinion and instruction of any SF to the Average George Orthodox is valued and respected more than the Average Joe on the street.

But please, allow me to walk this spiritual road that I'm on. It has helped me and made me a better person and I pray that it will continue to do so (also ask for St. Constantine to pray and may more!)

It is up to you what spiritual road you walk.
I realize that you are rather new to the Orthodox religion and I know very little about it, but I cannot imagine that you would have to ask your "Spiritual Father" if you should read the Bible.
I would hope that the Orthodox religion would allow anyone within it to chose to read the Bible if they so desire and would encourage all to do so.
God is our real spiritual Father.
We certainly are blessed to have brothers and sisters in Christ to help us in our Christian life, but we all can go to the Lord on our own.
Lastly, being a Christian is not about being a better person.
It is about God.
Becoming a Buddhist may help people become better people. But it has nothing to do with God.
Our goal in our Christian life should not be to become a better person although we should become that as a result of it.
Our goal as a Christian is God Himself.
I like this hymn:
My Goal Is God Himself

1. My goal is God Himself, not joy, nor peace,
Nor even blessing, but Himself, my God;
’Tis His to lead me there-not mine, but His--
At any cost, dear Lord, by any road.

2. So faith bounds forward to its goal in God,
And love can trust her Lord to lead her there;
Upheld by Him, my soul is following hard
Till God hath full fulfilled my deepest prayer.

3. No matter if the way be sometimes dark,
No matter though the cost be oft-times great,
He knoweth how I best shall reach the mark,
The way that leads to Him must needs be strait.

4. One thing I know, I cannot say Him nay;
One thing I do, I press towards my Lord;
My God my glory here, from day to day,
And in the glory there my great Reward.
http://www.hymns.net/lyrics/index.htm#m

When I first sang this song, I thought that joy, peace and blessings seemed to be good goals.
But, they are results of pursuing Christ and are from Him, but they are not our goal.
Our goal is God Himself and it is Him we should pursue, not being a better person or anything else.

I am praying for you.

 

[Rhamiel]

OK, and I respect your desire to walk your own walk of faith, but if we could all let down our denominational guards at this point, do you not appreciate even a little the perception we have? That is to say, that even though the Bible is agreed to by everyone here to be divine revelation, we reformed Christians spend a lot of time being told not to trust it by Christians who, at the same time as they are saying something along those lines, are confortable taking the word of some neighbor about a matter as dubious as dealings with spirits -- calling THAT human testimony adequate "validation." (If I understood you correctly when you used that term.)

Ok, I can see it from your POV, the Bible says do not practice necromancy

I do not see praying to saints = necromancy
also it seems very arogent that people think they know better then the christians who were taught by the apostles, the practice of praying to saints is very old, it goes back to the early church

 

[Thekla]

a note on the role of a "spiritual father" ;

this role is attested to in the writings of St. Paul, re Timothy - for example
the epistles (letters) of St. Paul are, in fact, all from the 'pen' of a spiritual father to his spiritual children

"... where two or three are gathered ..."

doing too much, doing too little; trying to advance too fast, or failing to advance (too slow) -- all can be spiritually dangerous for a Christian.

 

[Albion]

Ok, I can see it from your POV, the Bible says do not practice necromancy

I do not see praying to saints = necromancy

I don't either. Nor do those other persons here who have been saying in their own way just about the same as I've been saying. Necromancy is not charged, but praying top the deceased is still wrong even if it is not Necromancy, another kind of wrong.

also it seems very arogent that people think they know better then the christians who were taught by the apostles, the practice of praying to saints is very old, it goes back to the early church

And I have to say in response that it seems very arrogant of people to state that X is what the apostles taught when they have no way of knowing that they did.

There are many false practices that are very old and unBiblical, you know. Being old doesn't make them right, and if they were really old, i.e. from the FIRST churches of Christ, the beginning point of any continuity of belief sufficient to establish "Tradition," we'd know it from history and the New Testament or both.

 

[christianmomof3]

a note on the role of a "spiritual father" ;

this role is attested to in the writings of St. Paul, re Timothy - for example
the epistles (letters) of St. Paul are, in fact, all from the 'pen' of a spiritual father to his spiritual children

"... where two or three are gathered ..."

doing too much, doing too little; trying to advance too fast, or failing to advance (too slow) -- all can be spiritually dangerous for a Christian.

So in the Orthodox religion do you think that reading the Bible is dangerous?
Do you tell people that they have to get permission to do that?

 

[Thekla]

So in the Orthodox religion do you think that reading the Bible is dangerous?
Do you tell people that they have to get permission to do that?

no

(if I could scan, or type faster, I could give you lengthy quotes and homilies dating from, for example, the 4th century; we have been always admonished to read scriptures (for those who were literate, and owned Bibles. St. Constantine the Great sponsored the first "mass production of Bibles, only 50, but alot in an era where it took about a year to produce one Bible.)

but to introduce a program, one should consult someone who knows the person, and their spiritual progress, well. For some, the Bible in one year would indicate "spiritual laziness", for another with many obligations or suffering from prelest or spiritual shallowness, such a goal could indicate disinterest in one's obligations or pride.

also to note, the typical EO practice is to read the book of Psalms once over the course of the week (divided into three sets of Psalms a day, and two sets on Sunday). During Lent, the recommendation is doubled. There are additional daily readings from the Bible as well. And it is recommended to read the Bible in addition to the Psalms and readings which respond to the "Liturgical Calendar" (reading along with our community, if you will).

 

[christianmomof3]

no

(if I could scan, or type faster, I could give you lengthy quotes and homilies dating from, for example, the 4th century; we have been always admonished to read scriptures (for those who were literate, and owned Bibles. St. Constantine the Great sponsored the first "mass production of Bibles, only 50, but alot in an era where it took about a year to produce one Bible.)

but to introduce a program, one should consult someone who knows the person, and their spiritual progress, well. For some, the Bible in one year would indicate "spiritual laziness", for another with many obligations or suffering from prelest or spiritual shallowness, such a goal could indicate disinterest in one's obligations or pride.

also to note, the typical EO practice is to read the book of Psalms once over the course of the week (divided into three sets of Psalms a day, and two sets on Sunday). During Lent, the recommendation is doubled. There are additional daily readings from the Bible as well. And it is recommended to read the Bible in addition to the Psalms and readings which respond to the "Liturgical Calendar" (reading along with our community, if you will).

Ok, thank you. Because the brother is a young man who has not yet read the entire Bible, I did suggest that he read it.
I saw that ya'll had some Bible reading guidelines on TAW so I assumed that you did encourage it, but was not sure when he said that he would ask about reading it.
We encourage all of the young people in our church to read the Bible through.
Usually with the Jr. High, we recommend that they read a chapter a night of the New Testament. When they are in High School, we recommend that they follow a reading plan and read the entire Bible. For some of them it may be a two year plan and for others it may be just a chapter a night still depending on where they are in their spiritual walk.

One of the first things that I did after being saved was to read the whole Bible - and it was so incredible to me!
So, I really strongly recommend that everyone read it through if they have not.

 

[Thekla]

Ok, thank you. Because the brother is a young man who has not yet read the entire Bible, I did suggest that he read it.
I saw that ya'll had some Bible reading guidelines on TAW so I assumed that you did encourage it, but was not sure when he said that he would ask about reading it.
We encourage all of the young people in our church to read the Bible through.
Usually with the Jr. High, we recommend that they read a chapter a night of the New Testament. When they are in High School, we recommend that they follow a reading plan and read the entire Bible. For some of them it may be a two year plan and for others it may be just a chapter a night still depending on where they are in their spiritual walk.

One of the first things that I did after being saved was to read the whole Bible - and it was so incredible to me!
So, I really strongly recommend that everyone read it through if they have not.

it is so important, I agree; I think it wise that your Church also considers the "individual's " development when advising a program!

reading it with "fresh eyes" must have been amazing for you ! And it is so amazing how it can keep opening up ...

(I do think the centrality of the Bible is one reason many of our hymns tend to summarize scriptural accounts - they make the Bible 'accessible and memorable' to those who aren't literate.)

 

[MrPolo]

Well, actually they don't. Would you be interested in you and I looking at them together--and closely--to see who is right about this?

Go ahead, it's a forum isn't it?

 

[Albion]

Go ahead, it's a forum isn't it?

Hi.

there've been a few posts and several side discussions here since you and I were talking, so it may take a moment for us to get back up to speed. Apparently, the last thing we exchanged involved you saying this--What can I tell you. All I have gotten in response from my exegesis of numerous passages is "No, they don't say that." More power to anyone who is satisfied with themselves for giving that response to the verses that show prayer to heavenly Saints--and me saying that there aren't any such verses.

I'd suppose that a good place to resume would be for you to come up with at least one verse that does "show prayer to heavenly Saints." Not visions of them, not words spoken to an angel as at the Annunciation which doesn't involve any petition to God and anyone else on the living human's part, not thoughts about heavenly beings absent any petition/prayer, etc.

 

[]RiSeN[]

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times" -1Tim 2:5-6

Paul says there is only one who can mediate and intercede for us to God, that one is the Christ. Only Jesus, the firstborn from the dead, gave a corresponding sacrifice, a perfect life, and is counted as worthy and anointed directly by Jehovah God himself.

"Also, whatever it is that you ask in my name, I will do this, in order that the Father may be glorified in connection with the Son. If you ask anything in my name, I will do it." -John 14:13-14

Jesus does not teach any other way to approach his Father other than through his name.

Another reason "Saints" cannot hear or mediate our prayers is;
"but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all" -Eccl 9:5

 

[Thekla]

be mindful of the distinction between mediator and intercessor in the NT Greek (the EO is )

 

[E.C.]

OK, and I respect your desire to walk your own walk of faith, but if we could all let down our denominational guards at this point, do you not appreciate even a little the perception we have? That is to say, that even though the Bible is agreed to by everyone here to be divine revelation, we reformed Christians spend a lot of time being told not to trust it by Christians who, at the same time as they are saying something along those lines, are confortable taking the word of some neighbor about a matter as dubious as dealings with spirits -- calling THAT human testimony adequate "validation." (If I understood you correctly when you used that term.)

The best way that I can put this is that hearing the stories from people and hearing the way they told the stories with such awe and faith even decades after the fact, does help to validate the idea that miracles still happen in this awfully materialistic world and that the saints did not just keel over and rot. They live on and hearing people tell their experiences with the same awe as the day it happened is... indescribable.

The main bit of friction that I see here, is that Reformed types that go to the Bible for every small thing tend to look at everything theology related with too much analytical thought. One hears something, cuts it up and analyzes the cut-up sections over all the books of the Bible.

My question there is: whatever happened to that whole "faith like a child" thing that Christ mentioned? (rhetorical - if answered, will be ignored).

It is up to you what spiritual road you walk.
I realize that you are rather new to the Orthodox religion

New? Eh... about a year and a half. Yeah, I guess that's new-ish.

But Orthodoxy and Protestantism are both a part of the same religion (as is Catholicism) of Christianity. Thus saying Orthodox religion is not really necessary.

and I know very little about it, but I cannot imagine that you would have to ask your "Spiritual Father" if you should read the Bible.

I would hope that the Orthodox religion would allow anyone within it to chose to read the Bible if they so desire and would encourage all to do so.

Seeing how butchered and abused the Bible is on this forum, I find little reason to read it because, knowing me and my personality, I could probably find many ways of using verses to incite eventual riots, rock throwing and overall chaos on this site. We have enough of that as it is and to cause more is far beyond my intention of being here. Besides, I hear the Gospel and Epistle every Sunday that I get to Divine Liturgy .

We certainly are blessed to have brothers and sisters in Christ to help us in our Christian life, but we all can go to the Lord on our own.

What about when we get sidetracked? How to we get back in view of where God is when sight of Him is lost?

But, they are results of pursuing Christ and are from Him, but they are not our goal.

Our goal is God Himself and it is Him we should pursue, not being a better person or anything else.

And if we are to be pursuing Christ (no disagreement there) than do we not become like Him? And in that, do we not become better humans? Or are we just to pursue Him, say "hello, nice to meet you" and than continue on our marry way with no change whatsoever?

doing too much, doing too little; trying to advance too fast, or failing to advance (too slow) -- all can be spiritually dangerous for a Christian.

Too true. Far, far too true. Many times, people fall and never recover.

I finished reading Fr. Arseny a few weeks ago. If I remember correctly, there was a story or two of people that started off well, did too little, fell down and did not recover to a healthy spiritual state for years.

Its like getting shipwrecked and floating in water. If you work too hard, you run out of energy, sink and then drown. If you work too little, than you drift off to anywhere between Finland and the Marshall Islands. Yet, if you keep the energy usage stable and have a general direction that you're going towards, than eventually you will make it home safe and sound.