questions for those who pray to "Saints"

[Uphill Battle]

its not about "pull", its about the Church, the body of Christ as "kata-holos" of the whole, what is whole (where Christ, btw, is He who restores our 'wholeness'), it is about the savior, it is about our unity in Christ -- restored to wholeness through Him, the 2 greatest commandments are experienced.

really? Because it seems very much like looking for pull.

asking the saint to go to God with your petition.

 

[E.C.]

its not about "pull", its about the Church, the body of Christ as "kata-holos" of the whole, what is whole (where Christ, btw, is He who restores our 'wholeness'), it is about the savior, it is about our unity in Christ -- restored to wholeness through Him, the 2 greatest commandments are experienced.

And how (asking the Protestants here) can we be united if we for some reason can not ask the physically dead to pray for us?

They walked on this earth at some time. They had the Holy Spirit in them during that time. They, from reading about their lives, are much better examples of Christ-like behavior than what most of us can ever hope to be. They were here, they lived their lives in Christ (not in name only) and they are with God. Why are they somehow not able to hear our prayers? Why are they somehow not able to pray when they are in Communion with God and the rest of us schmoes are here on earth?

Basically, what I am saying and asking is this: they are with God. They had God within them when they walked this earth. We have God within us and are on this earth. Why can they not pray when they not only have God in them (Holy Spirit), but are also with Him (Father) because of their lives in living the way which the Son taught us?
We have God within us. They have God within them. Why can we not be united since we both have God within us? Why can they not pray when they are in Communion with God?

 

[Thekla]

really? Because it seems very much like looking for pull.

asking the saint to go to God with your petition.

it is like asking for the prayer of a righteous man (Iakovos/James) on your behalf.

we are broken, not whole. those who have died in Christ have been sundered from their bodies. Yes, all of us humans are broken. But in Him who is wholeness, we are 'completed', made whole despite our brokenness. We are made whole in unity with Him, with Christ. This wholeness is confessed, witnessed, affirmed, agreed with, when we ask any 'broken one', living or dead to pray for us. In this we assert that CHRIST IS WHOLENESS, and in Him all are completed.

 

[Thekla]

"My Lord is the One who resurrects. He resurrects the dead from morning until dusk, and from dusk until dawn.
What the morning buries, the Lord brings to life in the evening; and what the evening buries, the Lord brings to life in the morning.
What work is more fitting for the living God than to resurrect the dead into life?" St. Nikolai Velimirovich

Christ is wholeness for all who are broken, living (yet dead) dead (yet living).

"He restores my soul" says the Psalmist.

It is Him who raises me in the morning after the "little death" (sleep) when I am hypnos/amnesiac asleep, without memory and cannot praise the living God. To not live in Him, in praise of He who is life, is death.

 

[E.C.]

With Christ, there is no death. Only repose and falling asleep.

Death was a barrier. But because Christ conquered it, that barrier does not exist.

Why do people still act like it exists when Christ conquered it? He tore down that wall, thus there is at least some bit of unity between those on this side and those on that side.
Why act like there isn't?

 

[christianmomof3]

just to clarify; the issue is not whether or not those who spoke with angels were able to describe them, rather whether they saw them with their eyes of flesh, or the eyes of the heart.

I'm still confused, though, Tabitha was dead. Her body, the soul absent is what we term 'relic'. Peter spoke to Tabitha's relic. If one should not speak to the 'dead', why would Peter (and also Paul) ?

If "seeing" is the basic criteria for speaking to, would it not matter that what they saw was "dust" ?

When you "pray" to "Saints" or angels, do you see them physically? As far as "with the eyes of the heart" - that is not referred to in the Biblical examples that are given - they are seeing them physically.

I think I posted about the different words translated as prayer - some refer only to God, others are used for both God and people.

I am trying to understand ChristianMomof3 better.

The example of Peter and Tabitha is interesting; he spoke to a dead person.

Here is the definition of pray: To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship.
and the definition of prayer
(1): an address (as a petition) to God or a god in word or thought <said a prayer for the success of the voyage> (2): a set order of words used in praying b: an earnest request or wish2: the act or practice of praying to God or a god <kneeling in prayer>

Are your different words for prayer - some referring to praying to someone other than God found in the Bible? Are they found in a dictionary? Or do the "Saints" and angels fall into the category of "other object of worship"? Can you show examples in the Bible of someone praying to someone other than God?

And how (asking the Protestants here) can we be united if we for some reason can not ask the physically dead to pray for us?

They walked on this earth at some time. They had the Holy Spirit in them during that time. They, from reading about their lives, are much better examples of Christ-like behavior than what most of us can ever hope to be. They were here, they lived their lives in Christ (not in name only) and they are with God. Why are they somehow not able to hear our prayers? Why are they somehow not able to pray when they are in Communion with God and the rest of us schmoes are here on earth?

Basically, what I am saying and asking is this: they are with God. They had God within them when they walked this earth. We have God within us and are on this earth. Why can they not pray when they not only have God in them (Holy Spirit), but are also with Him (Father) because of their lives in living the way which the Son taught us?
We have God within us. They have God within them. Why can we not be united since we both have God within us? Why can they not pray when they are in Communion with God?

Where are we told that dead people become omniscient and able to hear the prayers of living people?
Have you been "united" with these dead people?
What is your experience of that?

I know and experience the living God.
I know that when I pray to Him, He hears me.
I feel His presence and He speaks to and through me and other Christians. And there are examples of that in the Bible.

I have never seen an example in the Bible of anyone praying to an angel or "Saint". I also have not experienced any angels or saints. I also do not know anyone who has nor has anyone given any example here of a personal experience of interaction with a "Saint" that they prayed to.

Angels are messangers sent by God, but people pray to God and He sends them - they don't pray to the angels themselves from the examples that we see in the Bible.

Why would only dead people be much better examples of Christians than living people anyway?

 

[christianmomof3]

With Christ, there is no death. Only repose and falling asleep.

Death was a barrier. But because Christ conquered it, that barrier does not exist.

Why do people still act like it exists when Christ conquered it? He tore down that wall, thus there is at least some bit of unity between those on this side and those on that side.
Why act like there isn't?

Do dead people communicate with you?
Can you see or hear or in any way experience them?
Can you see or hear or in any way experience God?

 

[Thekla]

Here is the definition of pray: To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship.
and the definition of prayer
(1): an address (as a petition) to God or a god in word or thought <said a prayer for the success of the voyage> (2): a set order of words used in praying b: an earnest request or wish2: the act or practice of praying to God or a god <kneeling in prayer>

Are your different words for prayer - some referring to praying to someone other than God found in the Bible? Are they found in a dictionary? Or do the "Saints" and angels fall into the category of "other object of worship"? Can you show examples in the Bible of someone praying to someone other than God?

the four words that are used in the NT are: deesis, enteuchis, proseuche and paraklesi and their many forms. I listed a link (that I can't find now, sorry ) somewhere in this subforum (on another thread).

please, we do not worship other than God !!!!

the term used for asking the Saints for prayer is most commonly "paraklesis" which is related in Greek to the words for please and comfort also.

as for seeing angels, etc, there is no distinction given between spiritual and physical sight. For example, IIRC, Luke relies on Stephen's report that Stephen sees Christ as he is being martyred. Saul was there and does not report this. Also, the language re the baptism of Christ does not indicate that any other than John witnessed some of the spiritual manifestations then.

 

[E.C.]

Where are we told that dead people become omniscient and able to hear the prayers of living people?

I believe that earlier in the thread the consensus was that the Saints who are with God are aware of our prayers.

Have you been "united" with these dead people?

What is your experience of that?

If you are asking if I've been visited by a saint or Christ in a dream (or something along those lines) than no; I have not been blessed like that.
But I know people that have.

I know and experience the living God.

I know that when I pray to Him, He hears me.
I feel His presence and He speaks to and through me and other Christians. And there are examples of that in the Bible.

Why would only dead people be much better examples of Christians than living people anyway?

Would you like to know of a few good people to read up on?

St. John Maximovitch of Shanghai and San Francisco.
Any of the Apostles.
St. Xenia of St. Petersburg.
Fr. Arseny.
Mother Teresa even falls here, as does Ghandi.
St. Herman of Alaska.
St. Tikhon.
St. Raphael of Brooklyn.
St. Nectarius of Aegina.
St. John Chrysostom.
St. Alexis Toth.
The Roman Catholic Sts. Francis of Assisi and Maximilian Kolbe fall under this category.

Many many saints. I did not say that because they are repose they are better than the living. I said that those that are Saints lived a much better life on this earth than one that I can ever hope to live.

Do dead people communicate with you?
Can you see or hear or in any way experience them?
Can you see or hear or in any way experience God?

Eh? Are you implying necromancy?

 

[Thekla]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1162[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]prayer[/FONT]devhsiß[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]deesis [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1189[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]pray[/FONT]devomai[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]deomai [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1783[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]prayer[/FONT]e[nteuxiß[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]enteuxis [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2065[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]pray[/FONT]ejrwtavw[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]erotao [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2171[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]prayer[/FONT]eujchv[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]euche [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2172[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]pray[/FONT]eu[comai[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]euchomai [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3870[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]pray[/FONT]parakalevw[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]parakaleo [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]4335[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]prayer[/FONT]proseuchv[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]proseuche [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]4335[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]pray earnestly[/FONT]proseuchv[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]proseuche [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]4336[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]pray[/FONT]proseuvcomai[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]proseuchomai [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]4336[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]make prayer[/FONT]proseuvcomai[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]proseuchomai [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]4336[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]pray for[/FONT]proseuvcomai[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]proseuchomai[/FONT]

from here:

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?search=pray&version=kjv&type=eng&submit=Find

 

[MrPolo]

It is not my "criteria" - it is just that I have not seen any examples in the Bible of people praying or speaking to someone whom they did not visibly see.

My dear, I have to think you are not reading my posts or playing a little tricky on us....

In post #48 you didn't believe because you wanted examples of someone on the other side that could "hear" us. I gave you examples with people and angels, Post #177 & 48. Then the rules changed and they had to be dead people that you couldn't "physically see" (which is the foundation of the athiest argument against God).

Everything I told you in post 48 still stands. We are encouraged to pray for each other Rm 15:30. The prayers of the righteous are very powerful (Jm 5:16) and it is a good thing to ask them to pray for you, per Paul's previous example. Since when is the Body of Christ divided because someone goes to heaven. How unscriptural is that!

I add: Revelation 5:8 which I am sure someone has mentioned in this thread of the elders in heaven offering the prayers of the saints. Somebody must not have been "praying directly to God" !!! What are these guys doing passing on prayers of someone else!

The Paul example I already gave you is
1 Cor 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.

You see Paul admitting his knowledge is dim. But "then" he will understand fully after he sees "face to face." This is a reference to the beatific vision of seeing God face to face (Rev 22:4, et al) in heaven. Here his knowledge is limited. In heaven he will understand as [he] is fully understood. Anyone already in heaven is fully aware of those on earth fully, just as Paul says he is at the time he wrote. Couple that with our oneness in the Body of Christ and Paul asking others to pray for us....there is no reason why anyone should claim it is inappropriate to ask those in heaven to pray for us because. It is unscriptural to do so. They are fully aware if we ask them to pray for us.

But forget all that for one second. I had also given you examples in the Ps 148:1-2, Ps 103:20-21 of asking the angels to pray with them. Nowhere are we told the Psalmist can "see" these angels.

So do you pray to angels then? The Holy Spirit inspired the author of Psalms to.

 

[christianmomof3]

from here:

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?search=pray&version=kjv&type=eng&submit=Find

Thank you! I have not ever used that lexicon, nor did I know about it. That is pretty neat! I have not had time to look up all the verses for every word there that is translated as pray or prayer, but of the ones I did look up which was quite a few, I have not yet found any that speak of praying to anyone other than to God. Can you point out those verses for me?

 

[Thekla]

Thank you! I have not ever used that lexicon, nor did I know about it. That is pretty neat! I have not had time to look up all the verses for every word there that is translated as pray or prayer, but of the ones I did look up which was quite a few, I have not yet found any that speak of praying to anyone other than to God. Can you point out those verses for me?

it was on the better site that I found previously; perhaps under "parakaleo" (which as I said is related to the word for please - parakalo- and comforter -paraklete- and comfort, etc) and erato -- which means ask. Depending on the "completeness" of the listing, you will find that some words are used for both God and people (parakaleo, IIRC) and others pretty much only for God (deithomen, and its related words). We still use these words, and their various meanings in our services. But, as I said before, they pretty much all get translated as "prayer".

 

[christianmomof3]

My dear, I have to think you are not reading my posts or playing a little tricky on us....

In post #48 you didn't believe because you wanted examples of someone on the other side that could "hear" us. I gave you examples with people and angels, Post #177 & 48. Then the rules changed and they had to be dead people that you couldn't "physically see" (which is the foundation of the athiest argument against God).

I do not and am not "playing a little tricky" on anyone. I have read your posts and you have not shown any verses that say that anyone in the Bible ever prayed to a dead person.
The only examples of people in the Bible of anyone speaking with the "dead" were of someone they could physically see.
There are no examples in the Bible of anyone praying to or speaking with dead people or "Saints" that were not physically visible to them.

Everything I told you in post 48 still stands. We are encouraged to pray for each other Rm 15:30. The prayers of the righteous are very powerful (Jm 5:16) and it is a good thing to ask them to pray for you, per Paul's previous example. Since when is the Body of Christ divided because someone goes to heaven. How unscriptural is that!

Since when and where in the Bible are we ever told that dead people - wherever they may be - can hear us?

I add: Revelation 5:8 which I am sure someone has mentioned in this thread of the elders in heaven offering the prayers of the saints. Somebody must not have been "praying directly to God" !!! What are these guys doing passing on prayers of someone else!

That has also been addressed in this thread. The book of Revelation is symbolic and nowhere does it say how the elders got the prayers to offer. You are assuming they were prayed to. If that is the case, then who are the 24 elders? Don't we need their names to pray to them so they will have our prayers? And where are we told to do that?

The Paul example I already gave you is
1 Cor 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.

You see Paul admitting his knowledge is dim. But "then" he will understand fully after he sees "face to face." This is a reference to the beatific vision of seeing God face to face (Rev 22:4, et al) in heaven. Here his knowledge is limited. In heaven he will understand as [he] is fully understood. Anyone already in heaven is fully aware of those on earth fully, just as Paul says he is at the time he wrote. Couple that with our oneness in the Body of Christ and Paul asking others to pray for us....there is no reason why anyone should claim it is inappropriate to ask those in heaven to pray for us because. It is unscriptural to do so. They are fully aware if we ask them to pray for us.

That verse does refer to the fact that we will see God face to face. But I have no idea how that would relate to dead people or asking dead people to pray for us. I do not see any connection there at all.

But forget all that for one second. I had also given you examples in the Ps 148:1-2, Ps 103:20-21 of asking the angels to pray with them. Nowhere are we told the Psalmist can "see" these angels.

So do you pray to angels then? The Holy Spirit inspired the author of Psalms to.

No, I do not pray to angels, nor do I see those verses as instructing us to do so. I think that the topic of prayer to angels would go on a different thread. This section of the forum is about Mary and Saints. I had no idea that ya'll prayed to angels too.
Is there anyone or anything else that ya'll pray to that I am not aware of?

Do all of ya'll who pray to "Saints" also pray to angels?
Do you fit them into the same category or is it a different topic?

 

[Albion]

It really doesn't matter if someone saw a vision, addressed relics, thought about what an angel might do for him, spoke to an angel, had a dream, or anything like these events.

All that is germaine to this discussion is whether the Bible shows us anyone PRAYING to the deceased or to spirits.

No one has found such a verse, and for a good reason. None exists. That's why all these "how about this near-miss?" kinds of notions are being thrown up to us instead.

And we know that you can reinterpret "pray" to mean anything from ponder to see to imagine to green cheese, for that matter, just as I can define Real Presence to mean Unreal Presence and priest to mean layman, if it's worked at hard enough.

There is no Biblical support for praying to the dead, but there is much support for praying to God. That's why we do it the latter way and not the other.

 

[Albion]

I believe that earlier in the thread the consensus was that the Saints who are with God are aware of our prayers.

That's wrong. There never was a consensus on that.

Heavenly beings we may call Saints, but not necessarily deceased humans, pray.
Saints offer prayers on our behalf.
Saints may be aware that we here do pray.

We do not know or agree that Saints hear our individual prayers -- whether addressed to them or to God--and then intercede with the Father as a result.

 

[MrPolo]

Since when and where in the Bible are we ever told that dead people - wherever they may be - can hear us?

I have no idea how that would relate to dead people or asking dead people to pray for us. I do not see any connection there at all.

No, I do not pray to angels, nor do I see those verses as instructing us to do so. I think that the topic of prayer to angels would go on a different

Ok, I can't help you any further with these comments. We've reached the "See this verse shows X," followed by exegesis. And the response is simply "No it doesn't." So not much else I can do with that rebuttal because it isn't really one.

Don't we need their names to pray to them so they will have our prayers?

Well, we Catholics know many of their names because when the Church declares someone a saint, ultimately we know they are in heaven. But for you, you could also do a conditional prayer if it is a relative of yours, for example, "Aunt Peggy, if you can pray for me, then pray for intention xyz..."

And if you are sola scriptura, you at least know from Scripture at least Moses and Elijah from the Transfiguration scene...then there's Enoch....if you know anything about typology, there's Mary. If you believe in the standard OSAS verses, then you can pray to Paul. I'd be cautious about running with Judas though.

p.s. you asked me where in Scripture we are told to do this? Maybe reread my posts? Start with Rm 15:30 where we can pray for others...then move onto the dead being able to hear us...etc... I walked you through this. But you have already addressed it with a simple denial.

 

[Albion]

Ok, I can't help you any further with these comments.

It's not as if there has been a standoff. There are no verses in the Bible that show praying to the saints. If there were, I'm sure someone would have presented it to us. What has been done is to show some other things that are NOT praying to saints but are somewhat related. Having a vision is not praying. Answering to an angel's message is not to petition God for anything, as with the Annunciation. And so on. None of that is on topic.

p.s. you asked me where in Scripture we are told to do this? Maybe reread my posts? Start with Rm 15:30 where we can pray for others

Our neighbors, not the dead.

then move onto the dead being able to hear us

Even if they are able to hear us, that doesn't show us that it is proper to direct prayers to them.

I walked you through this. But you have already addressed it with a simple denial.

No, you walked us through some other topics. And if you persist in saying that simple denial is what you got for your efforts, consider what we think who asked if there is any Biblical precedent for praying to saints only to get everything else about the saints in return--except that which was asked for, i.e. praying. That's denial, IMO, especially when it is also suggested that an answer to the question was given when it really was not.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

It really doesn't matter if someone saw a vision, addressed relics, thought about what an angel might do for him, spoke to an angel, had a dream, or anything like these events.

All that is germaine to this discussion is whether the Bible shows us anyone PRAYING to the deceased or to spirits.

No one has found such a verse, and for a good reason. None exists. That's why all these "how about this near-miss?" kinds of notions are being thrown up to us instead.

And we know that you can reinterpret "pray" to mean anything from ponder to see to imagine to green cheese, for that matter, just as I can define Real Presence to mean Unreal Presence and priest to mean layman, if it's worked at hard enough.

There is no Biblical support for praying to the dead, but there is much support for praying to God. That's why we do it the latter way and not the other.

"Biblical support."


There were no voice recorders during the ministry of Christ. The Gospels and letters are the (dirty word) Tradition of the Church. Though the words are not verbatim, yet they are true, that is, they are true as understood within the context of the Church and Her Tradition.

Sola Scriptura is wholesale theft of Tradition, said Tradition then pawned and claims to ownership falsified. Scripture- NT- is of the Church, by the Church, and for the Church.
Everything else is the wanton action of wannabes and usurpers.

Am I saying that non-Orthodox, and or Protestants are heretics and not Christian? No. I believe their claims to love Christ and know Him in an interpersonal way. He is gracious, and is no respecter of persons.
But the interpretation of the scriptures belongs within the contect of Holy Tradition.
The rest is a facade, as if the bible is THE source of truth. It is a witness of Truth.

If you're not convinced, this means no more to me than if a Muslim is.

 

[Albion]

"Biblical support."


There were no voice recorders during the ministry of Christ. The Gospels and letters are the (dirty word) Tradition of the Church. Though the words are not verbatim, yet they are true, that is, they are true as understood within the context of the Church and Her Tradition.

Sola Scriptura is wholesale theft of Tradition, said Tradition then pawned and claims to ownership falsified. Scripture- NT- is of the Church, by the Church, and for the Church.
Everything else is the wanton action of wannabes and usurpers.

Am I saying that non-Orthodox, and or Protestants are heretics and not Christian? No. I believe their claims to love Christ and know Him in an interpersonal way. He is gracious, and is no respecter of persons.
But the interpretation of the scriptures belongs within the contect of Holy Tradition.
The rest is a facade, as if the bible is THE source of truth. It is a witness of Truth.

If you're not convinced, this means no more to me than if a Muslim is.

Whatever makes your juices flow, I guess. I'm interested in serious discussion. Get back to me when you are.