questions for those who pray to "Saints"

[Rdr Iakovos]

Whatever makes your juices flow, I guess. I'm interested in serious discussion. Get back to me when you are.

On your terms, with you setting the grounding of the argument. Just like when the atheist insists we prove the existence of God, your notion of discussion to me seems like anything but.

 

[christianmomof3]

I suppose that it is similar to proving the existence of God to an athiest.
But, we are Christians.
We know God.
And we have the Bible to prove that He exists and we have other members of the Body, the church who also can help to support His existence.

What I asked for in this thread was Biblical support or personal experience of "Saints".

So far I have seen neither.

 

[Albion]

What I asked for in this thread was Biblical support or personal experience of "Saints".

So far I have seen neither.

The inability of anyone to produce either is the reason for the repeated attempts to change the subject, I'd guess.

 

[Uphill Battle]

On your terms, with you setting the grounding of the argument. Just like when the atheist insists we prove the existence of God, your notion of discussion to me seems like anything but.

well done.

you managed to equate the "other side" with Muslims, and atheists, in as little as two posts.

how often I see this.

 

[Thekla]

I suppose that it is similar to proving the existence of God to an athiest.
But, we are Christians.
We know God.
And we have the Bible to prove that He exists and we have other members of the Body, the church who also can help to support His existence.

What I asked for in this thread was Biblical support or personal experience of "Saints".

So far I have seen neither.

the matter of Biblical support on "asking the Saints" for intercession depends on one's 'interpretation' ; if one views the Bible (and I do not offer this as a 'complete' charachterization') as an instruction manual, then no - you will not find what you have requested. But ultimately, it reflects a much deeper difference -- a difference in Soteriology; the understanding of Christ's salvific role for us, and its impact in our lives. Our views on this matter seem to be very different. In part, our understanding of the resurrection and Pentecost are perhaps widely variant. I do not offer this as a value judgement, but as an observation.

per the matter of the experience of the Saints, I have offered some. There is much more that could be told, and by many. My own experience was clarified by the comments, as I related, made by a protestant. And from non-EO I have heard of many experiences, too. And of 'hearing' the needs of living Christians. But honestly, given the persistent characterization made re: the Saints (necromancy, magic, worship) what would be the point of relating more ?

So, in summary, we have a vastly different Soteriology, a very different understanding of the role of scripture and Christ in our lives. Which is fine.

Finally, if the Bible were objective proof of the existence of God, there would be vastly more believers than ther are at present. The Bible does not objectively prove anything. For me, that is fine, too. I do not need "objective proof" of His existence any more than I need objective proof of the existence of loved ones I see.

exei o Theos

in Christ

 

[Albion]

the matter of Biblical support on "asking the Saints" for intercession depends on one's 'interpretation' ; if one views the Bible (and I do not offer this as a 'complete' charachterization') as an instruction manual, then no

I never know whether to be alarmed or saddened whenever someone says this. What do you call the Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, and most of the rest of what Jesus taught his disciples IF NOT instruction? Take it or leave it musings?

per the matter of the experience of the Saints, I have offered some.

But not about the topic here--praying to them.

My own experience was clarified by the comments, as I related, made by a protestant. And from non-EO I have heard of many experiences, too. And of 'hearing' the needs of living Christians.

I may have missed something posted in the past, but the request was for a personal experience, not tales about what someone else said.

given the persistent characterization made re: the Saints (necromancy, magic, worship) what would be the point of relating more ?

I'm disappointed in having you going for that cop-out. Most of what has been posted has nothing to do with such criticisms.

 

[MrPolo]

There are no verses in the Bible that show praying to the saints.
Even if they are able to hear us, that doesn't show us that it is proper to direct prayers to them.

What can I tell you. All I have gotten in response from my exegesis of numerous passages is "No, they don't say that." More power to anyone who is satisfied with themselves for giving that response to the verses that show prayer to heavenly Saints.

 

[Thekla]

I never know whether to be alarmed or saddened whenever someone says this. What do you call the Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, and most of the rest of what Jesus taught his disciples IF NOT instruction? Take it or leave it musings?

perhaps it was St. Maximos who said that the OT is our body, the NT our soul and our nous. We are instructed, by word and example in the scriptures, but we are not completed there.
We are only completed by He who heals and completes. The beatitudes are a ladder -- when we reach the top, do we stop ? If we truly advance, we advance to Love. And the person, Love, the Christ , the God-man, is eternal. If we attain Love, we do not end there, but continue on in Him. "... where Christ is, there is paradise".

But not about the topic here--praying to them.

I don't understand ...

But I do know that the more precious Christ becomes to me, the more I love those who love Him. The apostles were spirit-filled. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit attracted many to those who loved Christ. And the apostles responded to those who desired Him. When St. Paul, and later St. Patrick, were graced to hear the prayers of others far-distant who desired Christ, they went. The more the spirit-filled love Christ, the more "attractive" they are to us.

Even now, we are attracted to those whose great love for Christ fills them with the Holy Spirit, and His outpouring -- whether they walk among us, or live "where the light of His countenance shines".

I may have missed something posted in the past, but the request was for a personal experience, not tales about what someone else said.

it was earlier on, the first few pages. But to say "tales", I cannot agree; accounts by others, some who I know personally, are not mine to share.

I'm disappointed in having you going for that cop-out. Most of what has been posted has nothing to do with such criticisms.

I'm sorry you are disappointed. It does seem we have a different understanding of Soteriology. I have a long way to go ... I do not have the answers you and ChristianMomof 3 want.

Why turn to me ? You love Christ, turn to Him.

 

[Albion]

perhaps it was St. Maximos who said that the OT is our body, the NT our soul and our nous. We are instructed, by word and example in the scriptures, but we are not completed there.
We are only completed by He who heals and completes. The beatitudes are a ladder -- when we reach the top, do we stop ? If we truly advance, we advance to Love.

I'm sure St. Maximos was a very nice person, but it still doesn't make sense to say that the Bible doesn't engage in instruction when it is speaking instructions to us on almost every page.

it was earlier on, the first few pages. But to say "tales", I cannot agree; accounts by others, some who I know personally, are not mine to share.

Fine, but the request was for first-hand experiences with "saints," not hearsay.

I'm sorry you are disappointed. It does seem we have a different understanding of Soteriology. I have a long way to go ... I do not have the answers you and ChristianMomof 3 want.

Well, it's only because I know you well enough to see that it's not a matter of you being unable to answer but rather of you being disinclined, for some reason or other, to answer.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

well done.

you managed to equate the "other side" with Muslims, and atheists, in as little as two posts.

how often I see this.

I equated the argument. You saw me equating the person. Perhaps yo need to adjust your vision.

Modern atheism came from the same root as Sola Scriptura- Western Rationalism.

 

[christianmomof3]

the matter of Biblical support on "asking the Saints" for intercession depends on one's 'interpretation' ; if one views the Bible (and I do not offer this as a 'complete' charachterization') as an instruction manual, then no - you will not find what you have requested. But ultimately, it reflects a much deeper difference -- a difference in Soteriology; the understanding of Christ's salvific role for us, and its impact in our lives. Our views on this matter seem to be very different. In part, our understanding of the resurrection and Pentecost are perhaps widely variant. I do not offer this as a value judgement, but as an observation.

I agree that there are many different interpretations of the Bible and that not everything we believe is found there. I think you are correct that our understandings of Christ and how He works may be quite different which can be part of the difficulty in understanding one another.

per the matter of the experience of the Saints, I have offered some. There is much more that could be told, and by many. My own experience was clarified by the comments, as I related, made by a protestant. And from non-EO I have heard of many experiences, too. And of 'hearing' the needs of living Christians. But honestly, given the persistent characterization made re: the Saints (necromancy, magic, worship) what would be the point of relating more ?

I do thank you for sharing your experience. I was hoping to hear from other people as well to see a wide variety of people's personal experiences with "Saints".

As far as necromacy - I suppose that is part of a very different understanding of things as well.
Those people are physically dead.
You cannot argue that they are not.
Ya'll, however seem to believe that you know what happens to people after they die and that you know that they exist in a state in which they can and do listen to living people and pass their prayers on to God.

I have not seen any direct Biblical support to that belief nor was I given any people's direct experiences of it other than yours, which I do thank you for sharing.

As far as worship goes, I do realize that ya'll have your own vocabulary to explain the difference in your worship of God and your speaking to and revering "Saints" and that it is different to you.
But, it still elevates your "Saints" to a position higher than that of ordinary people and gives them powers that ordinary people - even normal Christians, do not have. So even if it is not the same "worship" with which you worship God, it seems to cause people to respect and focus on these "Saints" rather than on God and even seems to take power away from God.
Why would God not answer your prayer? Why would St. Basil's help be needed? Why would his power allow the prayer to be answered?

I have heard ya'll compare praying to "Saints" to asking living people to pray with you.
I do ask other people to pray with me. The Bible tells us to pray for others and with others. It tells us that when two or three gather together in His name He is in our midst. But those verses all are speaking about living people. Nowhere is there mention of "if there are not living people around then pray to the dead ones".
And, even if I pray with others and my prayer is answered, I do not credit the other people that I prayed with for the prayer being answered.
It is God who answers the prayers and He would answer whether I prayed by myself or with others. Praying with others only strengthens and supports us and builds us up with one another in Christ. It does not affect whether a certain prayer is answered in a certain way or not.

So, in summary, we have a vastly different Soteriology, a very different understanding of the role of scripture and Christ in our lives. Which is fine.

Finally, if the Bible were objective proof of the existence of God, there would be vastly more believers than ther are at present. The Bible does not objectively prove anything. For me, that is fine, too. I do not need "objective proof" of His existence any more than I need objective proof of the existence of loved ones I see.

exei o Theos
in Christ

I guess we may have different understandings of God and how He works and why.

I also do not need the Bible to objectively prove God's existence. I know He exists because I subjectively experience Him. The Bible simply tells me about Him and His relationship with His people.

I have no subjective experience of praying to "Saints" nor do I see any Biblical evidence of it.

Thank you for you answers though.

 

[Uphill Battle]

I equated the argument. You saw me equating the person. Perhaps yo need to adjust your vision.

Modern atheism came from the same root as Sola Scriptura- Western Rationalism.

I can think of only one reason that someone would use atheism as a comparison for what another believer is saying. And it isn't a good one.

 

[Albion]

That's a fine and clear statement of our position, Christianmom. I regret that it most likely will be responded to by someone or other by saying:

dead=living,
communication=petitioning,
dreaming or seeing = praying,

and that those in heaven are able to do what no one on any side of this argument can know is true.

What this comes down to is what most of these debates come down to--be guided by the Word of God or else be guided by a Church organization.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

I can think of only one reason that someone would use atheism as a comparison for what another believer is saying. And it isn't a good one.

So you are arguing my intent after I explained it. I can think of only one reason for you to do so, and it isn't a good one.

Now, back to MY point, which is that the assumed grounding of the argument- prove it from the bible- is both impossible and presumptive- for anything.

Is the bible the "pillar and ground of truth?"

 

[christianmomof3]

I have seen this verse referred to often in regards to praying to "Saints" on this thread and others: James 5:16...The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
So, I looked up the verse in it's context.

13Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. 14Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

It is in reference to praying for healing. And, it never mentions praying to dead people, nor that "righteous" means dead. In fact, James encourages us all to become righteous.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

That's a fine and clear statement of our position, Christianmom. I regret that it most likely will be responded to by someone or other by saying:

dead=living,
communication=petitioning,
dreaming or seeing = praying,

and that those in heaven are able to do what no one on any side of this argument can know is true.

What this comes down to is what most of these debates come down to--be guided by the Word of God or else be guided by a Church organization.

False dichotomy

 

[Thekla]

I'm sure St. Maximos was a very nice person, but it still doesn't make sense to say that the Bible doesn't engage in instruction when it is speaking instructions to us on almost every page.

I did not say that the Bible "doesn't include instruction" (nor did St. Maximos); instead, the Bible does not complete us. The Savior "makes whole", not the Bible. Yes, we must obey the instruction. The word "listen" means "obey". In obedience we gain, by grace, understanding. We have not "read" the Gospel until we live it. And there is more in the Bible than instruction. But fullness is only in Him.

Fine, but the request was for first-hand experiences with "saints," not hearsay.

my own experience is not "hearsay" to me, but will of course be so to you.

Well, it's only because I know you well enough to see that it's not a matter of you being unable to answer but rather of you being disinclined, for some reason or other, to answer.

there is also a difference in understanding in the very words used; nekros, for example

I answered, and found my answers were not satisfactory because of a difference in Soteriological belief. That is all I have to offer.

 

[Albion]

I did not say that the Bible "doesn't include instruction"

Not much different from styling it *not an instruction manual* from what I can tell.

instead, the Bible does not complete us.

Well, no one was arguing that. We were discussing its reliability as revelation.

my own experience is not "hearsay" to me, but will of course be so to you.

"hearsay" n. [phrase to hear say] something one has heard but does not know to be true. (Webster). For a person who thinks communication and prayer mean the same thing, I wonder why what everything said by others must be parsed to death.

That is all I have to offer.

OK

 

[Thekla]

"hearsay" n. [phrase to hear say] something one has heard but does not know to be true. (Webster). For a person who thinks communication and prayer mean the same thing, I wonder why what everything said by others must be parsed to death.

to repeat, I recounted my own experience.

 

[Albion]

to repeat, I recounted my own experience.

And I asked if I might have missed a post which dealt with that.

It would have been helpful and nice if you had simply responded by directing me to it instead of what you did instead, which seems to me to have been some kind of cat and mouse game.