questions for those who pray to "Saints"

[E.C.]

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times" -1Tim 2:5-6

Paul says there is only one who can mediate and intercede for us to God, that one is the Christ. Only Jesus, the firstborn from the dead, gave a corresponding sacrifice, a perfect life, and is counted as worthy and anointed directly by Jehovah God himself.

"Also, whatever it is that you ask in my name, I will do this, in order that the Father may be glorified in connection with the Son. If you ask anything in my name, I will do it." -John 14:13-14

Jesus does not teach any other way to approach his Father other than through his name.

Is anyone saying any other way?


Bear in mind, that because Christ conquered death, one's soul does not simply cease to be.

 

[christianmomof3]

My question there is: whatever happened to that whole "faith like a child" thing that Christ mentioned? (rhetorical - if answered, will be ignored).our faith is from God and in God - He never gave me any faith in praying to "Saints"

Seeing how butchered and abused the Bible is on this forum, I find little reason to read it because, knowing me and my personality, I could probably find many ways of using verses to incite eventual riots, rock throwing and overall chaos on this site. We have enough of that as it is and to cause more is far beyond my intention of being here. Besides, I hear the Gospel and Epistle every Sunday that I get to Divine Liturgy .

What about when we get sidetracked? How to we get back in view of where God is when sight of Him is lost?

That is really just dreadful. I would hope that the Orthodox church would encourage you and all of its members to read the entire Bible not just tell you that you will hear it in your divine liturgy.
Reading the Bible should not bring you away from your faith, but rather should strengthen your faith.
If you have questions about things that you read, then you ask other members of your church or your "spiritual father" your questions.
If you get sidetracked that is what the church is for.
That is not an acceptable excuse not to read the Bible.

 

[MrPolo]

"show prayer to heavenly Saints." Not visions of them, not words spoken to an angel as at the Annunciation which doesn't involve any petition to God and anyone else on the living human's part

See Post 211 for detail. Pick out any verse in there you want, even from the sublinks in that post from posts 48 and 177. My passages are contained in all three of these posts (48, 177, and 211)

And for your part, please show me from Scripture where it says when we die, we are fully united with the Body of Christ, except not with those members of the Body who are still living on earth.

 

[jckstraw72]

the Church definitely DOES encourage us to read the Bible. There is even a lectionary of daily readings that can guide us, or we can certainly read at our own pace.

 

[Uphill Battle]

the Church definitely DOES encourage us to read the Bible. There is even a lectionary of daily readings that can guide us, or we can certainly read at our own pace.

just so long as you don't dare read it for yourself. IOW, just so long as you don't do it without letting them tell you exactly what everything means, and how it confirms their doctrines.

 

[Asinner]

just so long as you don't dare read it for yourself. IOW, just so long as you don't do it without letting them tell you exactly what everything means, and how it confirms their doctrines.

Who should tell me what it means?

 

[Uphill Battle]

Who should tell me what it means?

for what? Is it so incomprehensible? did God decide that he was going to make his inspired scripture be completely impossible to understand, unless someone goes over it piece by piece?

I'll grant that some of it requires some explaination. However, the dichotomy that it's impossible to know what anything means without somebody telling you exactly what every bit means, is just silly to me.

I note, of course, that it's usually only those who claim to be the "one true" church, that also claim that you can't understand scripture without their say so.

 

[Asinner]

for what? Is it so incomprehensible? did God decide that he was going to make his inspired scripture be completely impossible to understand, unless someone goes over it piece by piece?

I'll grant that some of it requires some explaination. However, the dichotomy that it's impossible to know what anything means without somebody telling you exactly what every bit means, is just silly to me.

I note, of course, that it's usually only those who claim to be the "one true" church, that also claim that you can't understand scripture without their say so.

The Holy Scriptures are a deep well. Either one can drowned or be quenched.

I actually read the NT prior to becoming a Christian. What I understood from them is that they are of something greater than myself. I did not walk away from them with an understandable praxis (baptism, worship, communion, ect). I also do not trust my interpretations because my heart is still wicked and deceitful. This is why I look to those who have finished the race successfully (become dispassionate) to help me to understand this deep well. Hope that makes sense.

Love,
Christina

 

[Uphill Battle]

The Holy Scriptures are a deep well. Either one can drowned or be quenched.

I actually read the NT prior to becoming a Christian. What I understood from them is that they are of something greater than myself. I did not walk away from them with an understandable praxis (baptism, worship, communion, ect). I also do not trust my interpretations because my heart is still wicked and deceitful. This is why I look to those who have finished the race successfully (become dispassionate) to help me to understand this deep well. Hope that makes sense.

Love,
Christina

sure, it makes sense.

other than the fact that nobody alive has finished the race, so I'm not real certain how you manage that.

 

[Asinner]

sure, it makes sense.

other than the fact that nobody alive has finished the race, so I'm not real certain how you manage that.

Their writings/commentaries have been preserved for us.

 

[jckstraw72]

just so long as you don't dare read it for yourself. IOW, just so long as you don't do it without letting them tell you exactly what everything means, and how it confirms their doctrines.

why would i presume to perfectly understand the writings of someone else who was inspired by God, while i have no reason to think my own reading is inpsired by God? what other writing do we pretend to be able to do this with? Do any of us perfectly understand everything Shakespeare put into his plays, or any other author? No -- but we could ask him if he were alive, or consult any explanations he may have left. Same with Scripture.

 

[christianmomof3]

why would i presume to perfectly understand the writings of someone else who was inspired by God, while i have no reason to think my own reading is inpsired by God? what other writing do we pretend to be able to do this with? Do any of us perfectly understand everything Shakespeare put into his plays, or any other author? No -- but we could ask him if he were alive, or consult any explanations he may have left. Same with Scripture.

And God, who inspired the scriptures is alive and we can ask Him!
I am not discounting other people's interpretations as long as scripture is interpreted based upon scripture and not outside sources. However, we can always ask the Author too.
​

 

[Albion]

See Post 211 for detail. Pick out any verse in there you want, even from the sublinks in that post from posts 48 and 177. My passages are contained in all three of these posts (48, 177, and 211)

Very well. I did as you asked and found that not one of the verses you mentioned deals with people petitioning/praying to deceased people or angels. One deals with asking a neighbor in the here and now and in the flesh--not a spirit--to pray for you. One doesn't concern praying at all. And so on. You haven't even attempted to show how they could be examples of what we're talking about in this thread.

And for your part, please show me from Scripture where it says when we die, we are fully united with the Body of Christ, except not with those members of the Body who are still living on earth.

"fully united" can mean quite a range of different things, don't you agree? Being "fully united" isn't a license to do wrongful things with or in the name of those other persons.

You're stretching to find a justification where there is none, yet at the same time we know that God invites our prayers to him and gave us his own son who both showed his disciples by example how to pray and also taught them by verbal explanation how to pray. No saints there, but you do remember that he answered their request about how to pray with "Our Father...."

 

[E.C.]

That is really just dreadful. I would hope that the Orthodox church would encourage you and all of its members to read the entire Bible not just tell you that you will hear it in your divine liturgy.

As jckstraw mentioned here:

the Church definitely DOES encourage us to read the Bible. There is even a lectionary of daily readings that can guide us, or we can certainly read at our own pace.

We are encouraged to read the Bible. I just choose not to.

Reading the Bible should not bring you away from your faith, but rather should strengthen your faith.
If you have questions about things that you read, then you ask other members of your church or your "spiritual father" your questions.
If you get sidetracked that is what the church is for.
That is not an acceptable excuse not to read the Bible.

You misunderstand.

I have little intention to read the Bible because if I read it, than I would most likely end up becoming another judgmental person on this forum who takes a verse that says "He wept" and somehow tie it into how wrong someone is because they are not from the same Church as I and thus their salvation is in danger.
Basically, I'd just assume not. I've gone my path well enough without memorizing every word like a Muslim might the Koran (Uphill, please refrain from ranting about this line in a following post) and as far as I know I can continue this path the way I have been for eighteen years: living as the best Christian that I can be.

And who said anything about excuses? Is their any verse that says it is a requirement to read the Bible or else one is not a Christian? Because that puts an intellectual cap on Christianity and those that can not read nor write and those that suffer from mental handicaps are not not able to be Christian.
I have no excuse for not reading the Bible because no excuse is needed. I just have no reason to read it.

 

[HisWordisTruth7]

We're told to hid His word in our heart so we either have to hear it or read it..Thats how the Holy Spirit works in us using it..

 

[Thekla]

to linger, to meditate, to pray, to live a clutch of verses over the course
of a week can be a greater blessing than to complete several chapters in the same course of time ...

 

[Uphill Battle]

why would i presume to perfectly understand the writings of someone else who was inspired by God, while i have no reason to think my own reading is inpsired by God? what other writing do we pretend to be able to do this with? Do any of us perfectly understand everything Shakespeare put into his plays, or any other author? No -- but we could ask him if he were alive, or consult any explanations he may have left. Same with Scripture.

why would you presume that others have perfect understanding of it then?

they are not the original, as you point out.

you assume to much, it would seem.

 

[Albion]

why would i presume to perfectly understand the writings of someone else who was inspired by God, while i have no reason to think my own reading is inpsired by God?

Isn't that the basis of our religion--that the Bible is inspired of God? If we take the view that it is not, or that we aren't convinced it is, everything else falls--Tradition included.

Do any of us perfectly understand everything Shakespeare put into his plays

I'd commend for your consideration what was written by serveral of us in one of the other threads now running (Sola Scriptura: How to stand by it) to the effect that the Bible has a point and that it is almost unmistakable to any reader. What you are suggesting is that every nuance dealing with every non-essential background fact that can be teased out of Scripture must be properly interpreted by someone or else....? What? What exactly is the price we pay if we get the use of incense wrong, for example?

No -- but we could ask him if he were alive, or consult any explanations he may have left. Same with Scripture.

How is this the "Same with Scripture?"

 

[jckstraw72]

why would you presume that others have perfect understanding of it then?

the authors themselves taught others.

Isn't that the basis of our religion--that the Bible is inspired of God? If we take the view that it is not, or that we aren't convinced it is, everything else falls--Tradition included.

the Bible is certainly not the basis for my religion. the Holy Trinity, and specifically the Incarnate Logos is the basis of my faith.

How is this the "Same with Scripture?"

consult the authors ... just like St. Clement, St. Ignatius, St. Polycarp, St. Ireneaus, etc etc and just like their congregations did. The next generation consults those who consulted with the Apostles, and so on.

 

[Uphill Battle]

the authors themselves taught others.



the Bible is certainly not the basis for my religion. the Holy Trinity, and specifically the Incarnate Logos is the basis of my faith.



consult the authors ... just like St. Clement, St. Ignatius, St. Polycarp, St. Ireneaus, etc etc and just like their congregations did. The next generation consults those who consulted with the Apostles, and so on.

and the next, and the next and the next, and the next....... like a grand old game of telephone, except the expectation exists that no changes happened, no errors were made, nobody was self serving, nobody lied, nobody was mistaken, etc... etc... yada.

right.