questions for those who pray to "Saints"

[Uphill Battle]

it does, however, bring up an interesting point: Tabitha was dead, yet Peter spoke to her. If we are not to speak to those who have died, why here ? Why, if her body was emptied of its soul, would it matter that Peter could see the body ? If seeing is the requisite for speaking to, does that mean that Tabitha's "isness" is her body ?

I'm very certain Peter didn't come up with it on his own.

 

[Thekla]

I'm very certain Peter didn't come up with it on his own.

come up with what on his own

 

[christianmomof3]

it does, however, bring up an interesting point: Tabitha was dead, yet Peter spoke to her. If we are not to speak to those who have died, why here ? Why, if her body was emptied of its soul, would it matter that Peter could see the body ? If seeing is the requisite for speaking to, does that mean that Tabitha's "isness" is her body ?

I am not sure that I understand your question. But, the only time people are spoken to in the Bible, even if they are dead, they are visible.
The only person who is prayed to who is not visible in the Bible is God. To me, that is a big thing.

 

[Uphill Battle]

come up with what on his own

raising Tabitha.

 

[Thekla]

I am not sure that I understand your question. But, the only time people are spoken to in the Bible, even if they are dead, they are visible.
The only person who is prayed to who is not visible in the Bible is God. To me, that is a big thing.

but Tabitha is dead, so it seems that the central issue implied is that - dead or alive - they must be visible. Do I understand correctly.

just to clarify, remember the broader meaning of "prayer"; to be accurate, we only pray (per your use of the term) to God.

 

[Thekla]

raising Tabitha.

I guess I didn't describe it well - at issue is that Peter (and also Paul) was talking to someone who was dead: Tabitha.

 

[Thekla]

to add:

how do we know if those (ex. angels) seen in the Bible were seen with the physical eyes, or with the "eyes of the heart" (spiritual eyes). There does not seem to be any clarification on the matter.

also, can we then address someone (ie, a Saint) who is dead, but whose relics are visible ?

 

[MrPolo]

These examples, like the others in the Old Testament, involve people communicating with someone whom they can physically see.

No, the Paul example does not and I'm sure you've seen the example in Revelation from others in this thread.

But still, I did not realize there was the additional criteria that you had to see the dead body. That sounds a lot like Thomas.... I thought you just wanted examples of the dead hearing us. If seeing the dead body makes the difference to you (like Peter with Tabitha), I recommend making a pilgrimage to see the exhumed body of Padre Pio beginning this month in Italy. And pray away! Jesus loves it when we ask other members of His Body to pray for each other!

 

[MrPolo]

raising Tabitha.

I am not following your exchange with Thekla either. What do you mean Peter didn't "come up with raising Tabitha" on his own?

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

ah, I see. If I grant you this point, you're going to have to still realize, that because some things don't make sense, that doesn't mean that the obvious choice in every situation is the one that doesn't make sense.

Conversely, just because it doesn't make sense to you, doesn't mean it ain't so- or for that matter, sensible.

nice try. Yes, Jesus had a chat with 5000. actually, it would be many more, with the women and children present. He was there, speaking to them. Perhaps you'd like to stop skirting the question, and answer if David was actually addressing every member of the heavenly host, as you so claim. And why, given the poetic and graphic nature of a great deal of the Psalms, we should think so, beyond your penchant for prooftexting what it is you believe.

If Jesus can chat with 5000 men, why cannot David speak to myriads?
Answer: I tip your king, resign.

I stand corrected. Self-righteous handwaving tends to set me off.

You know what they say: we hate most in others what we hate in ourselves.

never lost it. It's just been brought out again by all the holier than thou, false humilty spiritual snobbery going on around here.

Which you have not participated in at all, correct?

 

[Uphill Battle]

Conversely, just because it doesn't make sense to you, doesn't mean it ain't so- or for that matter, sensible.

sure, that's true. I just can't think of any reason to believe that David was having a talk with all the host of heaven in that passage. You're using it to prove a teaching of your church, but I think you are ignoring the Psalm for what it is, in effort to do so. (which is Ironic in itself... given the fact that your Church teaches that it doesn't have to BE in scripture to be true.)

If Jesus can chat with 5000 men, why cannot David speak to myriads?
Answer: I tip your king, resign.

you and I are obviously playing on different chess boards. You are comparing apples and oranges, and calling it fruit salad.

You know what they say: we hate most in others what we hate in ourselves.

dang, you must hate yourself as self-aggrandizing then, you call people it so very often.

Which you have not participated in at all, correct?

oh, sure. It's all a matter of POV. I'm sure you think the same of others, as others think of you.

depends on what you consider spiritual snobbery, false humility and holier than thou.

 

[christianmomof3]

but Tabitha is dead, so it seems that the central issue implied is that - dead or alive - they must be visible. Do I understand correctly.

just to clarify, remember the broader meaning of "prayer"; to be accurate, we only pray (per your use of the term) to God.

I am just stating that there are no examples in the Bible of people praying or speaking to dead people or angels who are not described in the Bible as being physically visible to those speaking to them. There are no examples that I have seen of anyone praying or speaking to anyone who is not visible other than to God.

to add:

how do we know if those (ex. angels) seen in the Bible were seen with the physical eyes, or with the "eyes of the heart" (spiritual eyes). There does not seem to be any clarification on the matter.

also, can we then address someone (ie, a Saint) who is dead, but whose relics are visible ?

There are physical descriptions in many if not all cases of those in the Bible and there is no mention of them being seen "spiritually" rather than visibly.
As far as relics - I don't think that makes any difference. I would not pray to a dead person's stuff that is left behind. I don't see any purpose in that really.

No, the Paul example does not and I'm sure you've seen the example in Revelation from others in this thread.

But still, I did not realize there was the additional criteria that you had to see the dead body. That sounds a lot like Thomas.... I thought you just wanted examples of the dead hearing us. If seeing the dead body makes the difference to you (like Peter with Tabitha), I recommend making a pilgrimage to see the exhumed body of Padre Pio beginning this month in Italy. And pray away! Jesus loves it when we ask other members of His Body to pray for each other!

It is not my "criteria" - it is just that I have not seen any examples in the Bible of people praying or speaking to someone whom they did not visibly see.
I am not sure what example of Paul you are referring to. He did hear, but not see God speaking to him when he was on the road to Damascus and that is a good example of our interactions with God as shown in the Bible. But, I have not seen an example of anyone hearing or speaking to a dead person in the Bible whom they did not visibly see. If there is an example like that, please share it.
As far as the whole padre peo thing - i am sorry - it sounds bizarre, superstitious and fraudulent to me and does not seem to honor Christ at all, but rather to draw attention to a bizarre "miracle".

 

[Thekla]

I am just stating that there are no examples in the Bible of people praying or speaking to dead people or angels who are not described in the Bible as being physically visible to those speaking to them. There are no examples that I have seen of anyone praying or speaking to anyone who is not visible other than to God.

There are physical descriptions in many if not all cases of those in the Bible and there is no mention of them being seen "spiritually" rather than visibly.
As far as relics - I don't think that makes any difference. I would not pray to a dead person's stuff that is left behind. I don't see any purpose in that really.

It is not my "criteria" - it is just that I have not seen any examples in the Bible of people praying or speaking to someone whom they did not visibly see.

just to clarify; the issue is not whether or not those who spoke with angels were able to describe them, rather whether they saw them with their eyes of flesh, or the eyes of the heart.

I'm still confused, though, Tabitha was dead. Her body, the soul absent is what we term 'relic'. Peter spoke to Tabitha's relic. If one should not speak to the 'dead', why would Peter (and also Paul) ?

If "seeing" is the basic criteria for speaking to, would it not matter that what they saw was "dust" ?

 

[Albion]

just to clarify; the issue is not whether or not those who spoke with angels were able to describe them, rather whether they saw them with their eyes of flesh, or the eyes of the heart.

I'm still confused, though, Tabitha was dead. Her body, the soul absent is what we term 'relic'. Peter spoke to Tabitha's relic. If one should not speak to the 'dead', why would Peter (and also Paul) ?

"The issue is"...whether or not we should PRAY to saints, asking for their intercession with God. No other "sounds like" issue matters, not calling conversation prayer, not a Bible reference to hoping that an angel would assist or wondering about it, not something dealing with relics, just whether or not we should pray to the deceased or angels.

 

[Thekla]

"The issue is"...whether or not we should PRAY to saints, asking for their intercession with God. No other "sounds like" issue matters, not calling conversation prayer, not a Bible reference to hoping that an angel would assist or wondering about it, not something dealing with relics, just whether or not we should pray to the deceased or angels.

I think I posted about the different words translated as prayer - some refer only to God, others are used for both God and people.

I am trying to understand ChristianMomof3 better.

The example of Peter and Tabitha is interesting; he spoke to a dead person.

 

[JoeyRatzinger]

What I think is funny is the attempt to claim the prayers aren't summoning aid and assistance, yet frequently they make direct addresses to them for their help and aid. Even in official offices.

 

[HisKid1973]

Here we have an apple to oranges thing...This wasn't about communications but a miraculous event like Lazarus coming forth..It is the power of God manifested...This was not a story on contacting those gone on..

 

[HisKid1973]

St Joseph sell my house.. Compared to Lord I feel you opening the door for us to move would you send a buyer...We had this exact situation and put our place in the paper..The house sold within a week and got more than we asked. If it's what God is leading, you don't need saints with extra pull because their with Him in heave to get the prayer answered..

 

[Thekla]

Here we have an apple to oranges thing...This wasn't about communications but a miraculous event like Lazarus coming forth..It is the power of God manifested...This was not a story on contacting those gone on..

the ability of a sinner to repent, the unity of the body of Christ - which includes the unity whether living or dead - these are the miraculous evidence of the power of the living God, manifested in history, in created time.

 

[Thekla]

St Joseph sell my house.. Compared to Lord I feel you opening the door for us to move would you send a buyer...We had this exact situation and put our place in the paper..The house sold within a week and got more than we asked. If it's what God is leading, you don't need saints with extra pull because their with Him in heave to get the prayer answered..

its not about "pull", its about the Church, the body of Christ as "kata-holos" of the whole, what is whole (where Christ, btw, is He who restores our 'wholeness'), it is about the savior, it is about our unity in Christ -- restored to wholeness through Him, the 2 greatest commandments are experienced.