Questions about preterism

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Justme

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Hi Frost,

You wrote:

Perhaps you'd like to explain this a little? All you did is list a verse that seems to contradict 1 Cor. 15:25-26,

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
*************************

Paul wrote the letters to the Corintians in 52 AD as far as I know.

In that letter Paul said Jesus had to put the enemies under HIs feet.

Sixteen years later Paul wrote to Timothy when he said:

10but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

I must assume that something happened to destroy death in that time. I assume it is the death in the spiritual realm that has been destroyed because a very good friend of mine just physically died.

I see this as the main purpose of the bible is to explain the spiritual life that is future for those who believe in Christ.

If one or the other of these verses is incorrect, we may as well throw our bible out and buy the qu'ran or something. If the verses are incorrect, Christianity is nothing , but a cruel joke.

Indeed there are times when the bible APPEARS to contradict, but ususally something comes up to explain it.( some I have taken years to figure out)

Who carried the cross, Simon or Jesus? Was it 6 days or 8 days from the statement to the transfiguration?

Did the signs of the end and the coming of the son of man occur in Jesus' generation or not? Did "ALL these things" include the destruction of the temple?

If not it is either that the main character of the christian faith is a liar or there are verses somewhere to explain away what Jesus said. In the 40 odd years I've been looking for those verses I have never found them.

Articles of the full preterists that I have read make sense biblically speaking. Patial preterists still believe in a grave emptying physical resurrection. It sells good, but none of them have ever shown me the third state of existance from scripture. You know the ...natural...the spiritual...then back to an earthly natural spritual......glorious...something....body.

Justme
 
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FreeinChrist

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FREE:
But Paul corrected them that he had not written that message or letter to them, and at the end of II Thes. points out how he signs his letters.

GW:
They got the correct letter from St. John just a few years later, declaring the apocalypse.
A few years later??? Try over 25 years IF they got it immediately. So how fast was postal service then?

Let's clarify a few things, one last time. They mistakenly believed that the DOTL had come based on a letter or message that they mistakenly believed was from Paul. They were shaken, because this was not what they expected. They expected to be gone before then. II Thes. was the letter to correct that mistake. Perhaps this false message was institigated by those who claimed the resurrection already happened - as discussed in II Timothy 2:17-18.



He plainly was, as the scripture says.
Then I challenge you to show me a single verse that says John believed the Second coming already occurred - a past event in his time.


John boldly announced the antichrist of the final hour had come! (1 Jn 2:18-19). It was by their manifestation during St. John's later ministry years that the apostle understood that he was in the final hour of the last days:

1 John 2:18-19
"it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
John was not discussing the 'man of sin', the 'beast from the sea', 'the son of perdition', the 'man of lawlessness', the 'little horn', etc, but of a type of person who left fellowship, rejecting Christ. That is obvious from the text. You have to add meaning to make it about THE Antichrist.
And the Greek word 'hora' means a particular time, a season, time. We have been in the 'last days' since the resurrection, because God's revelation of the salvation plan was complete.


Revelation 1:1-3
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place...for the time is at hand.
They still are 'at hand'. It is overhanging, as in imminent. Which is why all Christians should live as if they would meet their Lord today!
And not blieve those who teach that the resurrection has already occurred - as Paul clearly warned Timothy!


FREE:
Perhaps that is why John waited til about 80 A.D. to start writing.

GW:
We know for a fact that St. John announced the apocalypse during the tribulation period at the Day of The Lord (Rev 1:9).
No, we know that John received the vision on the island of Patmos, where he had been banished by Dominitan, long after Nero died. The tribulation he refers to is the tribulation that Christianity has suffered for the last 1900 plus years.

That's false. Here's a time frame:

"So, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (MT 24:33-34).
Again, 'generation' can mean race, and that is the interpretation I believe is correct. The other is that it is the generation who sees the things Jesus spoke about is the generation that is referred to here. What you have to ignore in your viewpoint, is the globalness of Christ's teachings. the events of 70 A.D. just don't match!


:
You have a fully misguided hope. Why must futurists constantly hope for what we already have.
Right....like the lamb lies with the wolf and the lion eats hay, huh? And if a person dies at 100, they are thought accursed, right? And no more babies die, right? And the whole world looks to Christ, right??
Not buying that fable of yours.
 
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FreeinChrist

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GW said:
Free,

The Church for 20 centuries has rejected the notion of a literal and future "thousand years." The presbyterians, methodists, calvinists, lutherans, catholics and every mainstream group accepted Rev 20 as part of the pattern of symbols St. John uses. For sure, the OT never mentions a millennium. The gospels never mention a millennium. The epistles never mention a millennium.

Sorry, but Revelation 20 mentions it about 6 times!
1000 years. And Explicit time statement that preterism must ignore.
And yes, millenialism was alive and well til after 400 A.D., when the church got stuck in the idea that since Rome captitualted to Christianity, then maybe things would get progressively better and and usher in the Second Coming.
And ALL of those churches you mention still believe that the Second Coming is future.
And yes, the OT mentions what happens in the millenium! Try reading Zechariah 14, and Isaiah.

FREE SAID:
And then there are other problems too. Who was the beast? Nero?...

GW:
These are not problems. Problems only arise when people lack knowledge about Christ's generation and what went on in it, and lack of knowledge of scripture. Nevertheless, the bible documents it very well for us, for the New Testament letters were "last-days" letters written by last-days people to other then-contemporary last-days people about their dire last-days situation and martyrdom to usher in the New Covenant Kingdom.
But they are BIG problems! Huge problems!
Who was the beast from the sea? the false prophet? The two witnesses who are visably resurrected in Jerusalem and 'caught up' and thew accompanying earthquake?
When was the earthquake that levels all the mountains, and make the islands disappear? When were all the seas turned to blood? The sores? The scorpian things?
 
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GW

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FREE:
That response shows that you blatantly ignore who wrote Rev. 2 and 3, the whole book in fact, and to whom.

GW:
St. John documented that Christ's return was to his contemporaries, the first-century Churches of Asia Minor. I'll choose to trust St. John and forsake all others.



FREE:
The OT dead have not been physically resurrected yet - it is their spirits that have gone to heaven (souls under the alter).

GW:
The OT dead left Hades/Purgatorio and went to Heaven at AD 70--Hades/Purgatorio has been defeated (1 Cor 15:54-56; Rev 20:12-15).

Can I assume that you believe in Purgatory/Hades as STILL the place of the dead since you believe 1 Cor 15:54-56 and Rev 20:12-15 haven't taken place yet? You must realize that your futurism requires that you will go to Purgatory/Hades when you pass from earth.



FREE:
The physical resurrection is yet to occur. After all, even Job expected to be 'in his flesh' when he sees his Redeemer in the latter days. Job 19.

GW:
Job 19 is referring to what happens at the end of the book when God shows up to Job and vindicates him before his accusing "friends."



FREE:
No, in doesn't "explicitly document" a first century return.

GW:
It does. Jesus made promises to the churches of Asia Minor that he kept (else He is not the Messiah). Read 'em, and adjust your view accordingly:


Jesus To First-Century Pergamos:
"you hast them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent, or else I will come unto thee quickly and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth."



Jesus To First-Century Ephesus:
"I will come unto thee quickly and will remove thy candlestick" (Rev 2:5)



Jesus To First-Century Thyatira:
"thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants...I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not...I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation...I will put upon you none other burden. But that which ye have already, hold fast till I come."



Jesus To First-Century Sardis:
"I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead...strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God...hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee....Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white"



Jesus To First-Century Philadelphia:
"I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I am coming quickly--hold that fast which thou hast



Jesus To First-Century Laodicea:
"thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to vomit thee out of my mouth... I have stood at the door, and I knock; if any one may hear my voice, and may open the door, I will come in unto him, and will sup with him "



Jesus To First-Century Smyrna:
"ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death"






FREE:
And He is still at the door to human hearts, knocking, and wanting to come in....He was then and He is still doing it now.

GW:
That passage has nothing to do with "knocking on the door to human hearts." Nothing whatsoever. Jesus said the apostles would recognize His return when he was "right at the door."


--COMPARE THIS--

"so also you, when you see all these things, know that He is near, even at the door." (Matt 24:33)


--TO THIS--

"...the coming of the Lord is near...behold, the Judge is standing right at the door." (James 5:8-9)


--AND THIS--

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock...I will come in to him and will dine with him" (Rev 3:20)



The passages are all about the apostles recognizing the return of Christ when he came back--which they clearly did, and they even put it in Holy Scripture for all to see.
 
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GW

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FREE:
They mistakenly believed that the DOTL had come based on a letter or message that they mistakenly believed was from Paul. They were shaken, because this was not what they expected. They expected to be gone before then.

GW:
They expected to be gone before then? Scripture please.

Notice their first-century expectation, and notice that they believed the Day of Christ was already present. In your view, they should have been raptured 7 years prior! That doesn't fit at all.



FREE:
Perhaps this false message was institigated by those who claimed the resurrection already happened - as discussed in II Timothy 2:17-18.

GW:
Again, notice the first-century expectation that they all believed in. They knew of no "church age." No "1948." No "computer chips." No EU.



FREE:
I challenge you to show me a single verse that says John believed the Second coming already occurred - a past event in his time.

GW:
St. John says the final-hour Antichrist had come (1 Jn 2:18-19). He says he is writing during the tribulation at the day of the Lord (Rev 1:9). He says Christ is coming to the first-century Asia Minor churches (Rev 2-3). He says he is announcing the apocalypse of Christ, for the time was then at hand (Rev 1:1-3). St. John was a preterist. He was told by Jesus that he would remain alive until the second coming (Jn 21:22), and it was fulfilled.




FREE:
And the Greek word 'hora' means a particular time, a season, time. We have been in the 'last days' since the resurrection, because God's revelation of the salvation plan was complete.

GW:
It has been the final hour of the last days for 2000+ years now and still counting??? C'mon. Does language have any meaning at all? If near means "not near," and last days means "multiplied millennia," and at hand means "not at hand," and final hour means "many billions of hours," then all human communication has broken down. How meaningless it was for LaHaye to write a book called Are We Living in the Last Days? ! We should answer, "Yes! the Lord is coming soon in the year 15,000! Get Ready! You better be ready!"




FREE:
They still are 'at hand'. It is overhanging, as in imminent.

GW:
You are abusing the word "imminent" beyond all recognition. Something thousands of years away is not said to be "imminent."




FREE:
Which is why all Christians should live as if they would meet their Lord today!

GW:
But the Lord is coming "soon" in the year 4,000, which is imminent. Right? Just around the corner. Near at hand. The year 4,000.



FREE:
The tribulation he refers to is the tribulation that Christianity has suffered for the last 1900 plus years.

GW:
It is not. It's the same "tribulation" mentioned again at Rev 7:14 and Rev 2:22.




FREE:
Again, 'generation' can mean race, and that is the interpretation I believe is correct. The other is that it is the generation who sees the things Jesus spoke about is the generation that is referred to here.

GW:
In the second case, you are using my meaning, only you seek to futurize that 40-year period. Yet note that Jesus ties that 40-year generation to the apostles that would see all those things.(24:33)

In the first case, you are saying that the Jewish "race" will go extinct at the second coming. Could there be a more harmfully racist teaching than this?




FREE:
What you have to ignore in your viewpoint, is the globalness of Christ's teachings. the events of 70 A.D. just don't match!

GW:
You have invented a "globalness" that the apostles never meant when they spoke about the "whole world" (Lk 2:1; Rom 1:8; Acts 11:28) and "every nation under heaven" (Acts 2:5-10), and the "uttermost parts of the earth" (Matt 12:42). We must conform to their view, not force them to conform to our modernist, unbiblical views.


Jesus came back in the apostles' generation, for they were promised that they would see all those things:

"So, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matthew 24:33-34).
 
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OldShepherd

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Justme said:
Hi OS,

I asked you. I don't care what these guys think. I can't track them down and prove to them where they are right or wrong. I want to hear your answers.

Justme

[size=+1]I believe my name was on that post. You heard my answers.[/size]
 
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FreeinChrist

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GW said:
FREE:
That response shows that you blatantly ignore who wrote Rev. 2 and 3, the whole book in fact, and to whom.

GW:
St. John documented that Christ's return was to his contemporaries, the first-century Churches of Asia Minor. I'll choose to trust St. John and forsake all others.

I have to go to sleep, so will only address a few things.
'documented'?? What John wrote was a prophecy. Yet to occur when he received it in 95 A.D. You imply that it is documentation of a Second coming that occurred - but that is just plain false. It's prophecy.

The OT dead left Hades/Purgatorio and went to Heaven at AD 70--Hades/Purgatorio has been defeated (1 Cor 15:54-56; Rev 20:12-15).

Realy????!? Don't think so. Instead, I believe that Christ liberated the souls of the OT saints from Abraham's bosum in Sheol much closer to the Resurrection.
And there are huge problems with the 70 A.D. date - because Revelation was written in 95 A.D.
Can I assume that you believe in Purgatory/Hades as STILL the place of the dead since you believe 1 Cor 15:54-56 and Rev 20:12-15 haven't taken place yet? You must realize that your futurism requires that you will go to Purgatory/Hades when you pass from earth.
I do not believe in purgatory. I believe that before the resurrection of Christ, the souls of the saints were in Abraham's bosum and the wicked in Hades...as Jesus describes in His story. Now when a saint dies, his soul/spirit joins Christ in heaven, and in a future day, we will receive a glorified body as described in I Cor. 15


Job 19 is referring to what happens at the end of the book when God shows up to Job and vindicates him before his accusing "friends."
I disagree.
"And as for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth. Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God..."


Now in regards to these two ( for I do need to sleep)
Jesus To First-Century Laodicea:
"thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to vomit thee out of my mouth... I have stood at the door, and I knock; if any one may hear my voice, and may open the door, I will come in unto him, and will sup with him "

Laodicea was also described as 'wealthy' in this letter...but they suffered a devastating earthquake in 62 A.D. that flattened the city. If the letter was written in 65 A.D. as preterists claim... then the description doesn't fit. But it would fit by 95 A.D.
And Christ is still at the door of hearts around the world.....

Jesus To First-Century Smyrna:
"ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death"


And interesting thing about Smyrna. It is described as strong in faith..but it did not exist in Paul's day. Paul died 67 - 68 A.D., and Nero died in 68 A.D.
Doesn't fit as the preterists like to claim. Not a bit.


FREE:
And He is still at the door to human hearts, knocking, and wanting to come in....He was then and He is still doing it now.

GW:
That passage has nothing to do with "knocking on the door to human hearts." Nothing whatsoever. Jesus said the apostles would recognize His return when he was "right at the door."
How sad that you don't recognize this. :(

And I notice in quoting verses with 'door' in them, you leave out Philadelphia, and leave out Rev. 4:1-2....
 
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FreeinChrist

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GW said:
FREE:
They mistakenly believed that the DOTL had come based on a letter or message that they mistakenly believed was from Paul. They were shaken, because this was not what they expected. They expected to be gone before then.

GW:
They expected to be gone before then? Scripture please.

Notice their first-century expectation, and notice that they believed the Day of Christ was already present. In your view, they should have been raptured 7 years prior! That doesn't fit at all.
Fits fine actually. Added to the false letter that they believed from was from Paul was the fact that the persecution was worse. Paul addresses this in II Thes.
And if they expected to be in the DOTL, why were they 'shaken'? They were shaken because they were still there, and they believed the DOTL had come. As Paul wrote, those who taught that the resurrection had come (of believers) upset the faith of others.


GW:
Again, notice the first-century expectation that they all believed in. They knew of no "church age." No "1948." No "computer chips." No EU.
They believed in an imminent return as we should continue to do. But your point is no point...

Free:
I challenge you to show me a single verse that says John believed the Second coming already occurred - a past event in his time.

GW:
St. John says the final-hour Antichrist had come (1 Jn 2:18-19). He says he is writing during the tribulation at the day of the Lord (Rev 1:9). He says Christ is coming to the first-century Asia Minor churches (Rev 2-3). He says he is announcing the apocalypse of Christ, for the time was then at hand (Rev 1:1-3). St. John was a preterist. He was told by Jesus that he would remain alive until the second coming (Jn 21:22), and it was fulfilled.
I already addressed those points - and you must not be reading my answers. Because you are not answering the challenge!
Show me a verse where John writes that it already occurred.

Don't preterists believe the Second Coming occurred in 70 A.D.?
John didn't write I John till about 80 A.D. and Revelation in 95 A.D.
Sorry, but John wrote of future events, he wrote prophecy of future events - and history had not shown their fulfillment!

FREE:
And the Greek word 'hora' means a particular time, a season, time. We have been in the 'last days' since the resurrection, because God's revelation of the salvation plan was complete.

GW:
It has been the final hour of the last days for 2000+ years now and still counting??? C'mon. Does language have any meaning at all?
Yes, we have been in the last days that long. And I already explained what 'last days' mean. How long is a 'day' to God? How long is a thousand years to God? How odd that you must make 'soon' a definite time period, but make 1000 years as vague and meaningless.
How odd that as preterist, you ask if language has meaning at all and then deny that 1000 years means 1000 years, and an earthquake that levels ALL mountains means an earthquake that levels ALL the mountains. And deny that plainly stated events of the 2 witnesses. The burning mountain that falls to the earth. All the seas turning to blood and all sealife dying.

:
You are abusing the word "imminent" beyond all recognition. Something thousands of years away is not said to be "imminent."
Again, you are defining everything in your terms, not God's. I am giving the concept it's scriptural meaning. I accept that God 'is not slow as some think of as slow'...but 'wants all to come to repentence'. I see the DOTL as a time of final decision (as in the Valley of Jehosephat) and that when Jesus returns at the Second coming, it is "without sin unto redemption' - meaning it is not to save the lost but to defeat the wicked. That hasn't happened...the lost can still be saved.

FREE:
Which is why all Christians should live as if they would meet their Lord today!

GW:
But the Lord is coming "soon" in the year 4,000, which is imminent. Right? Just around the corner. Near at hand. The year 4,000.
It will happen in God's own time, at a time He has decided. We are to live as if we will meet him today. We need to be right with Him now.
Do you deny this?

You have invented a "globalness" that the apostles never meant when they spoke about the "whole world"

No, Christ invented 'globalness'"!

You still aren't addressing those problems I mentioned.
 
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OldShepherd

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GW said:
FREE:
That response shows that you blatantly ignore who wrote Rev. 2 and 3, the whole book in fact, and to whom.

* * *
The passages are all about the apostles recognizing the return of Christ when he came back--which they clearly did, and they even put it in Holy Scripture for all to see.

[size=+1]Let’s review all the letters to the seven churches and see if there is a single one in which Jesus states that He is actually returning to those churches in the first century.[/size]

  • to Ephesus Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
[size=+1]This letter does NOT say Jesus is coming back in the first century. It only says “quickly” and that is conditional, “or else I will come unto thee quickly.” Is there any scriptural proof that Ephesus did NOT repent? If they did repent and Jesus came anyway, then He would be a liar.[/size]

  • 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
[size=+1]Smyrna, no mention of returning whatsoever.[/size]

  • 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write;
    16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
[size=+1] This letter also does NOT say Jesus is coming back in the first century. It only says “quickly” and that is conditional, “or else I will come unto thee quickly.” Is there any scriptural proof that Pergamos did NOT repent? If they did repent and Jesus came anyway, then He would be a liar.[/ [/size]

  • 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
    2:22 Behold, I will cast her [Jezebel] into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
    2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
[size=+1]This passage states that AFTER Jesus deals with Jezebel, and He can do that without ever leaving heaven, He will come at some unspecified time. It does NOT say “soon” or “quickly.”[/size]

  • 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; . . .
    3:3 If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
[size=+1]This passage also does NOT say “soon” or “quickly.”, only “I will come on thee as a thief.” And as with other verses this is conditional, “If therefore thou shalt not watch.” Preterists want to claim that Jesus would be a liar if He didn’t come in the first century. If that is true, then Jesus would be a liar if the church of Sardis DID watch and He came. Is there any scriptural proof that Sardis did NOT watch?[/size]

  • 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write;
    3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
[size=+1]"Quickly" means "quickly" but 1000 years doesn't mean a thing.[/size]

  • 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans
    3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
[size=+1]And a second church with NO mention of Jesus coming, whatsoever. Above is a translation, “I am about to spue thee out of my mouth.” That is NOT the only translation of the word and no proof that is the best definition here. It is not translated in that way in NAS, ASV, KJV, 3d Millenium, or RSV, only the NIV. This is another example of selectively using different versions when they seem to support a particular viewpoint. And of course we know this is NOT literal, Jesus does not have a church in His mouth. So whatever Jesus’ intention was He could have done it without leaving heaven.

If we are to apply Preterism’s hyper-literalism across the board, then Jesus was coming to only four of the churches in the first century and “never” coming to the other three because He never mentions it.

Of course Preterism totally ignores the fact that in Rev. 2-3 Jesus’ coming to three churches was conditional on their repenting or watching. Compare this to Jonah's missionary journey. When the Ninevites repented at Jonah's preaching God did NOT destroy them as He had planned. And, if we use the other argument Jesus would have been lying when He said “repent or else I will come quickly,” and the churches did repent and Jesus came in the first century, anyway.

Some historical accounts show that John took Mary, the mother of Jesus, to live in Ephesus and that Polycarp, a disciple of John was bishop of the church at Smyrna, ca. 130 AD. Evidently neither of these churches was visited and judged by Jesus in the first century.
[/size]

http://www.ephesusguide.com/history_of_ephesus.html

http://www.hitit.co.uk/history/efes.html

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/christian-history.html
 
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GW

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FREE:
'documented'??

GW:
Yes, documented. "The Revelation" is the apostolic announcement of the Lord's return in their generation. Christ's return was heralded by St. John, the apostle who was to live until the second coming (Jn 21:21-23; Matt 16:27-28).



FREE:
What John wrote was a prophecy...You imply that it is documentation of a Second coming that occurred - but that is just plain false. It's prophecy.

GW:
John's announcement of Christ's apocalypse concerned things that were then taking place and things about to take place:


Revelation 1:19
'Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things" (YLT)

Revelation 1:1,3
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place...Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy and heed the things which are written in it, for the time is at hand."




John's written announcement of the apocalypse that he sent to the seven Asia Minor churches is about things that were obligated to "shortly come to pass," for the time was then at hand. Free, John is either a true prophet or he is false. He explicitly states that the "things" contained in the announcement of Christ's apocalypse were "things that are" ... "things that were about to come after those things" ... "things that were obligated to take place soon because the time was then at hand." There is no way around this. John must be right, and futurists must be wrong.




FREE:
I believe that Christ liberated the souls of the OT saints from Abraham's bosum in Sheol much closer to the Resurrection.

GW:
There is zero support for your view, and wishing it doesn't make it so. If one is a futurist, Hades/Purgatorio is still fully intact for the dead, and is not yet defeated. Since futurists believe 1 Cor 15:54-56 and Rev 20:12-15 concerning Hades/Purgatorio are yet future, then Hades/Purgatorio is where they go when they die. Are you prepared to go to the OT place of the dead when you die? You futurists can go there, but we preterists are going to God's transcendent Heaven.




FREE:
I do not believe in purgatory.

GW:
You must, if you are a futurist. You have no choice. Purgatorio/Hades is not defeated until 1 Cor 15:54-56/Rev 20:12-15.




FREE:
Now when a saint dies, his soul/spirit joins Christ in heaven

GW:
Besides being gnostic, that claim is without any biblical support. Again, the OT place of the dead, Hades/Purgatorio, is not defeated until 1 Cor 15:54-56/Rev 20:12-15. If those passages are yet-future, then you will go to Hades when you die. There is no way around it.




FREE:
I disagree.
"And as for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth. Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God..."

GW:
Just read the end of the book of Job and see it is so. It is fulfilled at the end of the story.



FREE:
Now in regards to these two ( for I do need to sleep)
Jesus To First-Century Laodicea:
"thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to vomit thee out of my mouth... I have stood at the door, and I knock; if any one may hear my voice, and may open the door, I will come in unto him, and will sup with him ] "

Laodicea was also described as 'wealthy' in this letter...but they suffered a devastating earthquake in 62 A.D. that flattened the city. If the letter was written in 65 A.D. as preterists claim... then the description doesn't fit. But it would fit by 95 A.D. And Christ is still at the door of hearts around the world.....


GW:
Their "devastating earthquake" was one of many grand last-days quakes taking place during the end of the Old Covenantal world, and an early Roman historian records that Laodicea was so wealthy that it rebuilt itself quickly and with no help from others.

And, for sure, Christ was NOT "knocking at the door of hearts." That is false and modernized! Rather, the bible teaches that He was "at the door" of His second coming as he had taught them and as James recognized. He was at the door of His promised eschatological supper:


--compare this--

"so also you, when you see all these things, know that He is near, even at the door." (Matt 24:33)


--to this --

"Be like men who are waiting for their master when he returns from the wedding feast, so that they may immediately open the door to him when he comes and knocks. Blessed are those slaves whom the master will find on the alert when he comes; truly I say to you, that he will gird himself to serve and have them recline at the table, and will come up and wait on them. (Lk 12:36-37)


--and to this--

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock...I will come unto him and will dine with him" (Rev 3:20)


--and to this--

"...the coming of the Lord is near...behold, the Judge is standing right at the door." (James 5:8-9)



There is no way around it. Revelation 3:20 refers back to Luke 12:36-37 and Matt 24:33 and James 5:8-9! Jesus is showing that those passages were for the first-century.



FREE:
...about Smyrna. It is described as strong in faith..but it did not exist in Paul's day. Paul died 67 - 68 A.D., and Nero died in 68 A.D.
Doesn't fit as the preterists like to claim. Not a bit.

GW:
Smyrna did exist, and in fact was still under the Jewish-led persecution of the Church (Rev 2:9-10)! Furthermore, note carefully that Jesus promises the Smyrna congregation that the second death would not affect them and that they were getting crowns. This is all second-coming stuff here. There is no way around it. The Christ is come. He came to them exactly WHEN he said.
 
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FREE:
Revelation 20 mentions it about 6 times!

GW:
If a symbol is mentioned 99 times, it is still a symbol.


FREE:
And yes, millenialism was alive and well til after 400 A.D., when the church got stuck in the idea that since Rome captitualted to Christianity, then maybe things would get progressively better and and usher in the Second Coming.

GW:
Millennialism was contested by amillennialists from the first century until the 4th century. The millennialist expectations of Justin, Irenaeus, and others failed to materialize, and they discredited themselves and were an embarrassment to the church of those centuries for their failed endtimes views. They had countless failed prophecies about being in the final generation (much like today's millennialists), and the amillennialists finally exposed their error and shut them down. Thank God for the amillennialists on that one. The Chuch owes them a great debt! Unfortunately, millennialism is back discrediting itself and the Church in our times, and has been doing so since about 1820.



FREE:
And ALL of those churches you mention still believe that the Second Coming is future.

GW:
True. For they are inconsistent partial preterists. And, I would add that they disagree on nearly all specifics of the "FUTURE" coming of Christ. The multiplied endtimes views generated by futurists contradict each other at every turn.

BTW, Zechariah 14 says nothing of a "millennium."



FREE:
Who was the beast from the sea? the false prophet? The two witnesses who are visably resurrected in Jerusalem and 'caught up' and thew accompanying earthquake?
When was the earthquake that levels all the mountains, and make the islands disappear? When were all the seas turned to blood? The sores? The scorpian things?

GW:
Please pick up a copy of Kenneth Gentry's book, The Beast of Revelation -- Identified!
 
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GW

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FREE:
And if they expected to be in the DOTL, why were they 'shaken'? They were shaken because they were still there, and they believed the DOTL had come.

GW:
They were shaken because the second coming had come (in their estimation) yet they were still experiencing grave persecution (2 Thess 1:4-9). Paul had to reassure them that the second coming of Christ would stop their persecution:

"This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. For it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire" (2 Thess 1:5-7)


The Thessalonians were expecting to receive relief from their persecution via the second coming, and they hadn't yet received their relief even though they believed the second coming had come! That's why they were shaken up. Note that Paul reaffirms to them that Christ's return was indeed going to relieve the persecution in Thessalonica (2 Thess 1:5-7)!




FREE:
They believed in an imminent return as we should continue to do. But your point is no point...

GW:
The point is this: since they believed in an imminent return, then we know with certainty that "1948" and the "church age" and the "EU" and a "computerized mark of the beast" are myths unknown to the apostles. That is, their belief in an imminent first-century return of Christ eliminates the possibility that your eschatological views are true. By expecting an imminent first-century return of Christ, the apostles demonstrate that they knew nothing of "1948," the dispensational "church age," the EU, the computerized mark of the beast, etc. etec. And, since the apostles themselves knew nothing of those doctrines, then they are not true apostolic doctrines and must be rejected.


FREE:
Show me a verse where John writes that it already occurred.

GW:
Antichrist had come as of the time 1 Jn 2:18-19 was written. John was writing during the tribulation period at the Day of the Lord (Rev 1:9). His vision was about things obligated to come to pass shortly for the time was then at hand (Rev 1:1,3).



FREE:
Yes, we have been in the last days that long.

GW:
This is unacceptable. The "last days" is that generation that was to see the return of Christ, and everyone knows it. Even Tim LaHaye.


FREE:
And I already explained what 'last days' mean. How long is a 'day' to God? How long is a thousand years to God?

GW:
God does not have time. Time is for mankind. God is timeless.



FREE:
How odd that you must make 'soon' a definite time period, but make 1000 years as vague and meaningless.

GW:
The bible itself makes "soon" a short time period. And, the "thousand years" is neither vague nor meaningless just because it is a symbol.



FREE:
Again, you are defining everything in your terms, not God's.

GW:
Preterists use scripture to interpret scripture. So, technically, it is God defining things in God's terms.



FREE:
No, Christ invented 'globalness'"!

GW:
Nope. The apostles meant the "whole Roman world" (see Luke 2:1; Acts 11:28; Rom 1:8; Acts 2:5-9).
 
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OldShepherd

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GW said:
FREE:
Revelation 20 mentions it about 6 times!

GW:
If a symbol is mentioned 99 times, it is still a symbol.

[size=+1]So what is it a symbol of? Which Preterist book will we have to buy to get an answer?[/size]

FREE:
Who was the beast from the sea? the false prophet? The two witnesses who are visably resurrected in Jerusalem and 'caught up' and thew accompanying earthquake?
When was the earthquake that levels all the mountains, and make the islands disappear? When were all the seas turned to blood? The sores? The scorpian things?

GW:
Please pick up a copy of Kenneth Gentry's book, The Beast of Revelation -- Identified!

[size=+1]Seems like every time someone asks a tough question, we get referred to some pet Preterist writer's book or other. So if we want answers to all these questions we have to buy a bunch of Preterist books at about $15-20 a pop.[/size]

  • Gentry next enlists the aid of the number of the Beast from Revelation 13:18 to prove "Nero and Nero alone fits the bill as the specific or personal expression of the Beast" (Gentry, n.d.), stating

    A Hebrew spelling of Nero Caesar's name was Nrwn Qsr. . . . It has been documented by archaeological finds that a first century Hebrew spelling of Nero's name provides us with precisely the value of 666.

    Although Preterists believe that the last two chapters of Revelation pertain to the future (Jensen, 1981, p. 498), the essence of their position is that the events of Revelation arose

    out of conditions in the Roman empire of the 1st century AD. The seer was appalled at the
    possibilities for evil inherent in the Roman empire and he used symbolic imagery to protest against it, and to record his conviction that God would intervene to bring about what pleased him (Morris, 1980, p. 1338).

    Nevertheless, despite Gentry's firm belief, one must conclude that the Preterist position is untenable. It overlooks the fact that the book calls itself a prophecy (1:3). Mickelsen finds fault with the Preterist understanding of the mark of the Beast, stating,

    Nero Caesar in Hebrew letters comes out right if the consonants are NRWN QSR. But in the Talmud the word Caesar is spelled QYSR. If this is adopted, the total numerical value comes to 676. In Greek, of course, no form of Nero Caesar comes to 666 (Mickelsen, 1963, p. 202; also Morris, 1980, p. 1338).

    Finally, the Preterist view is highly dependant on Revelation having been written before 70 A.D., yet the evidence for a 95/96 A.D. date is overwhelming (Goswiller, n.d., p. 3), Irenaeus even explicitly stating that John wrote the book during Domitian's reign (Glasson, 1965, p. 8; Morris, 1980, p. 1338).

    http://www.tpub.com/religion/bible prophecy/revbook/

[size=+1]Here I will insert, the knee jerk ad hominem" reaction for Preterists is to say, as if they knew, "Well Irenaeus got Jesus' age wrong so we have to throw out everything he said." All without knowing anything about Irenaeus' actual writings. By that logic we would have to thow out all of Stephen's witness in Acts because some of his facts don't quite line up with the OT. Also it seems they don't want to consider the possibility of a scribal error, which also occurs in the Bible[/size].
 
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OldShepherd

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GW said:
FREE:
No, Christ invented 'globalness'"!

GW:
Nope. The apostles meant the "whole Roman world" (see Luke 2:1; Acts 11:28; Rom 1:8; Acts 2:5-9).

[size=+1]Did Jesus mean "whole Roman world" when He said "the world," "all nations", etc? I can understand the disciples only knowing the Roman world but NOT Jesus. For example John 3:16 should that read "For God so loved the "whole Roman world" that He gave His only begotten Son?"[/size]
 
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GW

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OLD SHEP:
Seems like every time someone asks a tough question, we get referred to some pet Preterist writer's book or other. So if we want answers to all these questions we have to buy a bunch of Preterist books at about $15-20 a pop.


GW:
How many books tapes and videos by LaHaye, Walvoord, Van Impe, Scofield, and Jeffreys have you purchased in your lifetime?

And, if you won't buy Gentry's one book, you may read an older edition of it for FREE here online:

The Beast of Revelation -- Identified!
http://freebooks.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/2186_47e.htm
 
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GW said:
OLD SHEP:
Seems like every time someone asks a tough question, we get referred to some pet Preterist writer's book or other. So if we want answers to all these questions we have to buy a bunch of Preterist books at about $15-20 a pop.

GW:
How many books tapes and videos by LaHaye, Walvoord, Van Impe, Scofield, and Jeffreys have you purchased in your lifetime?

[size=+1]None, none, none, one and one. Actually on Scofield I have his footnotes/comments on a Bible program CD, not a separate book.[/size]

And, if you won't buy Gentry's one book, you may read an older edition of it for FREE here online:

The Beast of Revelation -- Identified!
http://freebooks.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/2186_47e.htm

[size=+1]You got that right. I won't buy his book. And you could just answer the question. Nero. There are other objections beside the review I posted above. I read part of an interview by Gentry. A lot of speculation, "if this then that," which is the same thing many other writers do. So it boils down to which guesser you want to believe.[/size]
 
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armothe

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OldShepherd said:
[size=+1]Did Jesus mean "whole Roman world" when He said "the world," "all nations", etc? I can understand the disciples only knowing the Roman world but NOT Jesus. For example John 3:16 should that read "For God so loved the "whole Roman world" that He gave His only begotten Son?"[/size]

When Christ said:
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world (kosmos), that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

He meant "universe" or the totallity of mankind.

When Christ said:
Matthew 24:14 - And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world (oikoumene) for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

He meant the expanse of the Roman Empire at that time.

-A
 
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parousia70

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OldShepherd said:
3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; . . .
3:3 If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

This passage also does NOT say “soon” or “quickly.”, only “I will come on thee as a thief.” And as with other verses this is conditional, “If therefore thou shalt not watch


OS, Just how many "comings of Christ as a thief" are you asserting scripture teaches?

I know of only one:

1 Thess. 5: 1-5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.


The day of the Lord coming "as a thief" referrs only to it's effect on those in darkness. The Day of the Lord is said not to overtake those in light, "as a thief".

Either way, the day of the Lord Comes.

The Condition of "If thou do not watch" is not about whether or not Jesus was going to actually come to Sardis, rather it is on whether or not Jesus' actual coming to Sardis would overtake them "as a thief".

The timing or fact of the 2nd coming is nowhere taught to be conditional upon personal repentance.

It is taught rather, that it was to come at an "appointed time", overtaking only those that do not watch "as a thief".

Preterists want to claim that Jesus would be a liar if He didn’t come in the first century. If that is true, then Jesus would be a liar if the church of Sardis DID watch and He came.


In that scenario, Jesus would only have lied if they DID watch and He came on them "as a thief". For again, the DOTL only comes "as a thief" on those not watching.

Clearly, on those who DID watch, even though the DOTL came upon them, the DOTL didn't come upon them "as a thief", for even when it came, it could not overtake anyone one who was truely watching "as a thief".

Is there any scriptural proof that Sardis did NOT watch?

Jesus himself said a few in Sardis would be found worthy enough to walk with Him in white garments.(Rev.3:4)
 
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GW

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frost said:
GW,

If Christ's return was going to end suffering and persecution, why did persecution continue for at least 200 years in the Empire?

Hi Frost.

We can see from scripture that Christ's return affected various then-contemporary situations. We can read of specific situations in Rev 2-3 and elsewhere.

Let's stick with Thessalonica for a moment. Jesus returned and cut off the Jewish persecution against the Thessalonian congregation. That's what they were expecting, and that is what they got -- scripture is very specific on it. It was a then-contemporary situation. Follow the scriptures on this...

The Thessalonicans were being persecuted by the Jews who were stirring up violence against them in their city (see Acts 17:1-14). Paul mentions this specifically at 1 Thess 2:14-16, saying that "God's wrath was to come upon them to the uttermost." Specifically, it was the return of Jesus Christ to them that was to end that Jewish persecution against them. Paul writes:


"This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. For it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire" (2 Thess 1:5-7)



Q. When would God give affliction to those that were persecuting the Thessalonican congregation and grant relief to the Thessalonians?

A. When the Lord Jesus was revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire.


So we see that it was their contemporary situation that was directly changed by the return of Christ. It was changed in exactly the same way as other scenarios we read about in Revelation 2-3, where unique contemporary situations were addressed by Christ's return to them. (For comparison, see Christ's then-contemporary destruction of the Thyatiran prophetess movement via his coming - Rev 2:20-25. Christ indeed returned to those Churches, and we have the documentation of it in the scriptures. There can be no question that Jesus returned to them.)

God bless,
GW
 
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