Questions about preterism

[frost]

Hello everyone. I thought it would be nice to have a new thread for questions about preterism. The only thing I ask is that it does not digress into an attempt to refute preterism or turn into a debate over preterism vs. futurism (there are plenty of threads for that already.) Honest questions only please.

God bless

 

[frost]

I get to be the first one! Here's my question.

1 Cor. 1:7-8

"Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. " (NIV)

This passage (and many other passages in the NT concerning Christ's return,) was not written to believers in Jerusalem. So, when judgment fell upon Jerusalem and Christ returned, how were they directly affected? How would they have known anything had even happened if they were miles away in a distant country? Obviously they would have heard about what happened there eventually but what changed in their lives to make them different at Christ's return? It sounds to me like the Corinthians were expecting something dramatic (something tangible, or physical, not spiritual,) to happen when he returned.

Thanks

 

[layne]

Here's my Q:

If Christ has already returned or whatever, like Preterists believe, then what's next to come for us? Where do the promises to us, like in Revelation, come into play: "a new heavens and earth", "look, I am making all things new", "I will wipe away every tear and death will be no more", etc.

 

[GW]

Frost,

I'd like to first commend you on your question. Concerning 1 Cor 1:7-8 you said:

"It sounds to me like the Corinthians were expecting something dramatic (something tangible, or physical, not spiritual,) to happen when he returned."

You're already way ahead of most futurists--most futurists entirely miss (or spiritualize away) the stark reality that it was the first-century Corinthians themselves that were expecting this return, and none less than the apostle Paul himself was teaching them to expect this.

To answer your question, the judgment associated with Christ's Parousia was not merely restricted to the land of Israel or Jerusalem (although that was the center). Disasters were going on all over the empire as God's wrath was being poured out. While preterists often turn to a slew of historical resources to show the famines, city-sized destructions from earthquakes, and empire-wide wars that were breaking out by God's design, we need only to look in our bibles to see how the churches around the empire were being affected at that time:


--THE END-OF-THE-AGE TRIBULATION--

* world-wide famine (Acts 11:27-29)

* plagues (1 Cor 11:29-31)

* world-wide suffering of the church (1 Pet 4:7,12-13; 5:9; 2 Thess 1:4-6)

* judgment upon the empire's kings/rulers (Acts 12:1-4/19-24; 23:1-3; 24:24-25)

* the apostasy (book of Jude; 2 Tim 1:15; 2 Tim 4:16)



--THE RELIEF PROVIDED BY CHRIST'S PAROUSIA--

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Thessalonica
promise: 2 Thess 1:6-7
result: their persecutors would be cut off, ending their persecution

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Thyatira
promise: Rev 2:18-25
result: their false prophetess and all her followers would be killed off by
Christ's coming. The Church was granted Christ's authority.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Pergamum
promise: Rev 2:12-16
result: the heretical Nicolaitans were to put down by Christ's coming to
Pergamum. The Nicolaitans that were causing them to break the decree of the Council of Jerusalem were killed (Rev 2:14; cf. Acts 15:28-29).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Sardis
promise: Rev 3:1-5
result: Christ promises them that his "thief-in-the-night" coming will come
upon them. They had not been faithfully expecting "the thief" as explained to them in Matt 24:43/1 Thess5:2-5. However, a few in Sardis were found worthy and had not soiled their garments. At Christ's coming to them "they walked in white, for they were worthy" (Rev 3:4-5).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Philadelphia
promise: Rev 3:7-13
result: Christ puts down the then-contemporary Jewish persecution (3:9).
He preserves the Church at Philadelphia through the testing which was then about to come upon the whole empire (3:10). God makes his faithful ones "pillars" in the Temple of God.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Laodicea
promise: Rev 3:14-21
result: Christ is shown to be knocking at their door as first promised in Matt 24:33 (cf. also James 5:9). If they didn't repent it appears they were annihilated. Repentant and obedient followers said to become partakers of Christ's heavenly authority.



I could add many other things, but this will do for now. It is clear that the scriptures contain the historic record of the tribulation period, and they explain the relief that Christ's Parousia brought to the churches around the empire, precisely as they were promised. Christ did not fail them.

 

[adelpit346]

Do you ever learn gw?
Christ Jesus has not returned.
Let me run outside to check and see....
NO thousand years of Peace.
No death thrown into a lake of fire.
No resurrections en mass.
But a host of men deceived by satan.
So i will pass the blessings of men to gw and see to what end this comes.
i am nothing0
Thankyou for bringing gw back with his backup crew.
For surely he needs their help.amen
i am nothing0
Jesus is The Lord1Praise The Lord1The Lord Jesus. amen

 

[adelpit346]

If you give a preterist enough rope he will knit himself a safety net but have NOT a Christ Jesus to anchor it too.
They but take the time to talk themselves out of Christ Jesus.
What a diminished Jesus they have imagined.
The Christ Jesus i bring you by Paul has Power and
Grace beyond the imaginings of preterist men.
IN FACT BEYOND THE ONE THOUSAND NINE HUNDRED YEARS OF THE IMAGININGS OF MEN IN ALL THE MANY CHRUCHES.
For dear Sheep of The LORD Jesus, i overcame all their errors.
i am nothing0
Jesus is The Lord1Praise The Lord1The Lord Jesus. amen

 

[GW]

Adelpit,

Jesus promised his apostles that they would see all those things as well as His return in their generation. Jesus, speaking to his apostles, promised them, saying:


Matthew 24:33-34
"So, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."


Brother, we must believe Christ, and reject all false teachings that Christ did not keep his word to them. And, James clearly recognized that Christ came near, right at the door, and recognized it just three decades after Jesus promised the apostles they would know the time. James announced the arrival of the ordained time of Matthew 24:33 to his first-century flocks, saying:

James 5:8-9
the coming of the Lord is near...behold, the Judge is standing right at the door. (circa AD 62)



The second coming of Christ was a first-century event. We are living beyond the endtimes of the Jewish age.

 

[GW]

Here's my Q:

If Christ has already returned or whatever, like Preterists believe, then what's next to come for us? Where do the promises to us, like in Revelation, come into play: "a new heavens and earth", "look, I am making all things new", "I will wipe away every tear and death will be no more", etc.

Hi Layne.

Revelation's vision was a vision given to John for him and his contemporaries. As John told his contemporaries, the seven Churches of Asia Minor:

Revelation 1:1,3
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His servants the things WHICH MUST SOON TAKE PLACE...Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND.


The apostles spoke of the arrival of the New Covenant, the Church, and entrance into God's heaven as the great blessedness of the Kingdom of Christ. Christ is in you, the hope of glory.

 

[frost]

GW,

Thanks for the reply to my question. I am still confused, however, about Christ's return. I understand and believe that Christ did return in judgement in 70AD. But, other passages seem to indicate there will be more. For instance, Acts 1:11 cannot easily be explained away by the full-preterist view (and I've heard a few interpretations of this passage by preterists.) 1Thes. 4:17 seems to present problems as well. Also, not all seems to have been fufilled. For instance 1 Cor. 15:25-26:

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Has God put all enemies under his feet? Did Christ defeat death? I do not think Paul was talking about spiritual death here either as the whole passage is about the physical resurection of Christ.

 

[adelpit346]

Now gw as i have said i say you are a Sheep, but likewise those things you think you know, i know are NOT.
For i know exactly the very nature of The sign of The Son of Man that shall appear in the heavens(and it is NOT a cross), the very nature and description of The Lamb's Book of Life, and the Seven sided stone, The sign of The Lord on The head of His Nation, having seen The Sword of The Lord Jesus, and knowing exactly what all of these have in COMMON and how they fit perfectly together.
So we disagree on many things ONLY because i have NOT shewed forth for you The Jesus Class Miracles, saying i am nothing, i agree with Paul 100%, and Jesus is The Lord.
And while i have been excommunicated by all the chruches of those calling themselves christians, it was NOT so i could found an eighth church, but so i could OVERCOME all their errors and know exactly when i did this for when you have done so, that is when they excommunicate you(not having overcome me by anything.)
So i will stay here coming and going to speak to others as The Spirit has me, but always expressly for your sake showing you your errors.
i do not think i would place much value in having ALL FAITHE it i had not you at my side. amen
i am nothing0
The United States will prosper and do quite well, as is the will of The FATHER in heaven.
But Jesus has NOT yet returned to earth in HIS Glory that ALL men will see, for HE does not come until after the end of The Great Tribulation, and i have not yet defeated satan at the battle of Armageddon.
Infact i am not yet finished with the study of the errors of the Seven Churches.
The Lord Jesus has it go slow with me, for He knows my impatience.
i am a zealot in the similitude of Paul.
i am nothing0
Jesus is The Lord1Praise The Lord1The Lord Jesus. amen
i do not think i will take the time to discuss all the many things The Father has against the seven churches, for i the thought of those things i am enraged and desire to number the people.
But my wrathe which is a wrathe of the flesh i must place aside, for i am NOT THE FATHER, but only nothing0 and for this i too must turn the other cheek and not oppose evil.
In fact on the day of the third bruising, i will be here with you in the fullness of ALL FAITHE. We as a nation of power of Heaven and of Earth beyond that of all nations combined will do nothing, fully knowing exactly who it is that has bruised us. amen
You may continue in your analysis of things. i will correct as needed.
i am impartial not preferring one chruch over another, having as nothing0, nothing against any of them.
They are what they desired to become.
i only come to assemble a nation.
adelpit346=at delphi 346=three vowel points,four letters, God at my side.
God has sent me to investigate these prophets.

 

[frost]

adelpit346,
If you cannot offer any constructive insight on this thread I, for one, would appreciate you not posting here. If you will read my opening post, this thread is for questions about preterism not for voicing personal insults or trying to disprove preterism.

Thanks and God bless

 

[GW]

Adelpit,

Please start your own thread to discuss your own religion.

This thread has a specific topic, and I think you should try to stay on topic or else start a new thread.

Thanks.

 

[GW]

FROST:
Thanks for the reply to my question. I am still confused, however, about Christ's return. I understand and believe that Christ did return in judgement in 70AD.

GW:
Before moving to other questions, did you understand the evidence I presented in my last thread -- i.e., that Christ came to those churches? It is crucial to grasp that. Futurists create wild and unsubstantiated allegories out of those first-century churches as if they never existed or never had SPECIFIC promises made to them concerning Christ's return to them in John's day. Yet they did exist, and the promises were specific to them and for their contemporary situation. Christ was to return to them, and was indeed already coming when the book was written. They were within the period of the Lord's day of tribulation and vengeance (Luke 21:22/Rev 1:9-10).


We can go on to discuss Acts 1 or 1 Thess 4 or others in a minute, but I'm trying to make sure you followed my last post closely and that you are looking up the passages and such.

Please let me know your response concerning Christ's promises to those Churches -- did Christ fulfill those promises, or did he fail to keep those promises made to them? There is no question those promises were to them and for them and about things that were obligated to take place soon in their time (Rev 1:1,3; 22:6-7, 10-11).

 

[frost]

Actually, I didn't quite follow your line of thinking on some of your scripture references.

* plagues (1 Cor 11:29-31)

This is the passage about the Lord's Supper, not about plagues. Am I missing something?

* world-wide suffering of the church (1 Pet 4:7,12-13; 5:9; 2 Thess 1:4-6)

1 Pet. 4:7 is saying to be clear minded so they could pray, says nothing about world-wide suffering.

These things aside, I'll agree with you that those things happened (famine, plagues, suffering, etc.) and were considered the tribulation. I do not have a problem with that.

I have more to say about the second part of your post about the 7 churches but will have to get to that tomorrow.

 

[GW]

Hi Frost.

As for 1 Cor 11:29-31, it says judgment was coming upon the world, and that those that did not partake properly of the Lord's body and blood were falling dead to that plague of sickness and death. Only those that were judging themselves rightly were being protected from the plague.


As for 1 Peter 4, let me string together the relevant passages that speak of the world-wide suffering of the church at that time:

1 Peter 4:7,12-13,17; 5:1,8-9

"The end of all things is near...do not be surprised at the fiery trial among you which is coming upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you...you share the sufferings of Christ...so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation..."

"...it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God...the glory [is] about to be revealed ... when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory... the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren throughout the world."
​

Peter is speaking of the fiery trial/judgment, with the urgent realization that it had reached its appointed time and that their sufferings were being shared by the churches throughout their world. We need only read through the book of Acts to see these persecutions arise in every city.

 

[frost]

I'm still not seeing evidence of world-wide plagues from this passage, as it seems to apply only to the Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 11
29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment.

From this we can see there were some who were not understanding the Lord's supper. They were taking to mean just an ordinary meal. Some were getting drunk others were feasting. Verse 30 is the only one that comes close to anything about a plague and it simply says some were getting sick and dying. Now if you do make this out to be a plague, it is only happening to the believers as it applies to those partaking of the Lords supper exclusively.

I can see your point on the 1 Peter passages, although verse 13 leads to my original question.

But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

How could the Christians have been overjoyed at the complete destruction of their country? Again, I see the judgement but they were looking for something good, glorious to happen. How could they have been overjoyed to see their city in flames and their homes destroyed? This is why I believe Christ's return in judgement was fufilled but not the glorious return to which other passages seem to point.

As to the Revelation passages you mentioned, I do agree that Christ promised them all types of relief. Still, much of the suffering and persecution remained and indeed got worse after 70AD until the time of Constantine.

As a side note, I've often thought of the first 3 chapters of Revelation to be dual in meaning, applying both to those churches and to the different time periods in church history. Today, for example, is said to be in the day of the Laodicean church.

 

[parousia70]

As a side note, I've often thought of the first 3 chapters of Revelation to be dual in meaning, applying both to those churches and to the different time periods in church history. Today, for example, is said to be in the day of the Laodicean church.

I'll address your side note as best I can Frost.

If the letters to the 7 Churches had any direct application to them at all, it demands a first century parousia, for Jesus promised them He would come to them specifically.

The only way to apply direct meaning to anyone other than that original audience is to remove the original audience from ANY application at all.

The "double sense" theory dosen't work because of the specific promises made by Jesus directly to those first century Churches.

Do you see the quandry?

 

[GW]

FROST:
I'm still not seeing evidence of world-wide plagues from this passage, as it seems to apply only to the Corinthians.

GW:
Why do you think it applied only to those church members in the city of Corinth? I believe Paul's statement there about judgment, sickness, and dying was not unique to the city of Corinth--it could be applied to any of the first-century churches. It was a plague of judgment that was going on around the empire during the AD 30-70 period, and only those properly handling the Lord's body and blood were receiving protection from God's judgment of sickness and dying. That's what Paul states. That whole issue of people falling sick and dying was a then-present judgment of God. People don't just fall sick and die in our churches today with regards to the Eucharist--but they did then. It was related to a plague of God's judgment upon that generation.




FROST:
I can see your point on the 1 Peter passages, although verse 13 leads to my original question.

But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

How could the Christians have been overjoyed at the complete destruction of their country? Again, I see the judgement but they were looking for something good, glorious to happen. How could they have been overjoyed to see their city in flames and their homes destroyed?


GW:
If you agree that the endtimes judgment was going on in Peter's day (1 Pet 4-5), then how can you suppose that the end it was leading them to never arrived for them? Did the relief they hoped for and were promised simply fail to arrive, yet the tribulation did occur? Did St. Peter mislead them and even wrongly identify the endtimes judgment?



FROST:
As to the Revelation passages you mentioned, I do agree that Christ promised them all types of relief. Still, much of the suffering and persecution remained and indeed got worse after 70AD until the time of Constantine.

GW:
Did the things promised to the seven churches of Asia Minor fail to materialize for them as they were promised? (See post #4 of this thread to review those promises of relief.) If one were to say that the promises made to the seven churches of Asia Minor failed to materialize, then that would indict the NT apostles (especially St. John) as false prophets. If one says that the promises made to the seven churches did materialize, then Christ came, and the apostles are vindicated as true prophets. This is serious stuff; if the promised relief of Rev 2-3 failed to arrive via Christ's coming, then Christianity has failed prophets at its very root.


FROST:
As a side note, I've often thought of the first 3 chapters of Revelation to be dual in meaning, applying both to those churches and to the different time periods in church history. Today, for example, is said to be in the day of the Laodicean church.

GW:
Where is that taught in the bible? If it is in the bible, I haven't seen it.

God bless,

 

[frost]

There are many instances where something in the OT, for instance, refers to both something THEN and also refers to something in the future. One example would be Ezekiel's temple. At the time it was written it sounded pretty much like a temple but many believe it is actually a picture of Christ or the Church (Gary DeMar, for one.) Also there are prophecies about Jesus that at the time they were written, applied to events in that time. I don't have any more specific examples, but I'm sure they can be found.

Also, John 2:19-20
19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."
20The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

They thought he meant the real temple after he was raised they realized he was talking about himself.

This duel-meaning theory stems from Rev. 1:3. Let me quote from Stedman, as he can say it better than I.

As we come to these letters we must ask ourselves: "Why are there only seven churches, and why these particular seven?" The only satisfactory answer is that these are representative churches. They are carefully selected churches. There were many other churches in the province of Asia at the time John wrote this letter. Others of them could have been selected, but only these seven were chosen. They were not even the best known churches in Asia, but they were chosen by the Lord because they represent conditions that will obtain throughout the whole period of church history from its beginning to its end. In other words, there are only seven types of churches that exist at any one given period of time. Every church that truly knows Jesus as Lord can be recognized as one of these seven at some particular moment of its history. By repentance or disobedience it may change its classification to another of these seven types, but it will always be found to fit somewhere in this seven-fold pattern.
But beyond that, as many commentators have pointed out, these letters are a kind of preview of the entire history of the church from its beginning to its consummation. In other words they represents even stages or periods of church history. The key that suggests this is the word (in 1:3) that calls this whole book a "prophecy." This prophecy includes Chapters 2 and 3, as well as the rest of the book. Seven, as we have already seen in Chapter 1, is the number of completeness. These letters, then, is our Lord's preview of the entire church throughout its history as it moves through various stages of development.

 

[GW]

FROST:
There are many instances where something in the OT, for instance, refers to both something THEN and also refers to something in the future. One example would be Ezekiel's temple. At the time it was written it sounded pretty much like a temple but many believe it is actually a picture of Christ or the Church (Gary DeMar, for one.)

GW:
This is because the OT history had the effect of foreshadowing the coming of Messiah and his covenant with various earthly "prototypes." But now he's already come, and the shadows are past--the heavenly realities arrived. Such typological things were bound within the OLD covenant system, not the New. The Old was the shadow, but the New is the real deal. See:


Hebrews 8:4-5
there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law, who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things

--AND--

Colossians 2:16-17
Let no man therefore judge you in eating, or in drinking, or with respect to a feast day or a new moon or a Sabbath day, which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ.

--AND--

Hebrews 10:1
For the law, having a shadow of the good to come, not the very image of the things can never...make perfect those who draw near.




FROST:
Also, John 2:19-20...They thought he meant the real temple after he was raised they realized he was talking about himself.

GW:
The brick-and-mortar temple was the OT shadow -- i.e., the copy of the heavenly things. The body of Christ is the heavenly reality itself, and is no mere shadow or copy.




FROST:
This duel-meaning theory stems from Rev. 1:3. Let me quote from Stedman...

GW:
Stedman has no word from John why seven churches are addressed, and it amazes me how he then uses this silence to invent his own elaborate allegory, which is nowhere taught by the bible. There is no biblical support for Stedman's allegory. Stedman says:

"they [the seven churches] were chosen by the Lord because they represent conditions that will obtain throughout the whole period of church history from its beginning to its end...these letters are a kind of preview of the entire history of the church from its beginning to its consummation. In other words they represents even stages or periods of church history...These letters, then, is our Lord's preview of the entire church throughout its history as it moves through various stages of development."
​

I have to ask: Where does the bible teach that? Quite simply, it doesn't. That statement by Stedman is entirely unbiblical, and has no root in apostolic belief or teaching (scripture). It is an allegory invented by later futurists, but was unknown to the apostles.