Questions about preterism

[OldShepherd]

Irrelevant. God does not require Several years of Greek Grammar and syntax training to understand His Gospel.

[size=+1]Your answer is irrelevant. I did not say it was necessary to understand the gospel. I said, "qualified to correct Robertson and other Greek scholars." which you even quoted. And you are only partially right look around at all the various groups claiming that everone else is wrong and they are the only one that interprets the scripture correctly. At this point scholars knowledgeable in the language and the culture of the first century are needed to separate the wheat from the chaff.[/size]

Again, Irrelevant. Paul never teaches that anyone will aviod physical death. In fact scripture states clearly that every man has an "appointment" with Physical death. (Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment")

[size=+1]Do all men keep that "appointment?" How about Enoch and Elijah? Paul said NOT everyone would sleep and more than once, those that remain alive will be caught up. Where does he say they will die first?[/size]

 

[parousia70]

Your answer is irrelevant. I did not say it was necessary to understand the gospel. I said, "qualified to correct Robertson and other Greek scholars." which you even quoted. And you are only partially right look around at all the various groups claiming that everone else is wrong and they are the only one that interprets the scripture correctly. At this point scholars knowledgeable in the language and the culture of the first century are needed to separate the wheat from the chaff.

OK, Why don't you go ahead and explain the biblical, or otherwise, difference between "eita" and "epeita". Why would any greek writer choose to use one or the other? Use as many commentaries from as many Greek scholars as you feel are necessary.

Do all men keep that "appointment?" How about Enoch and Elijah? Paul said NOT everyone would sleep and more than once, those that remain alive will be caught up. Where does he say they will die first?

Irrelevant to my point, since I have shown that the physical body is not biblically necessary for the "Harpazo" event.

Paul said not everyone would "sleep" which referrs to the unresurrected state of physical death BEFORE the parousia. Scripture never calls Physical death AFTER the parousia, "sleep".

 

[FreeinChrist]

[size=+1]

[size=+1]Do all men keep that "appointment?" How about Enoch and Elijah? Paul said NOT everyone would sleep and more than once, those that remain alive will be caught up. Where does he say they will die first?[/size]

It doesn't say that they will die in I Thes. 4, in regards to the 'catching up'. Those who are alive will be changed. And the context of of passage indicates that the catching up is 'immediately' not at a later time, as preterists might claim.

That there will be those who are raptured (caught up) and not die does not conflict with Hebrews 9 where it says that "it is appointed unto men once to die...". That verse shows that concept of reincarnation is impossible. We live once and die once and must come to Christ in this life. But those that are alive and in Christ at a particular time in the future will not die, but be changed. I find it interesting that preterists must work so hard to change that verse.

 

[Justme]

Hi Free,

You are aware that there are other verses that say man will die are you not?

How can you know your judgment if you do not die?

Who is the only one who can judge?

Is it possible for any human being to suggest to you that you WILL be saved if you do this or that? If so what would be an example of this or that?

Justme

 

[FreeinChrist]

Hi Free,

You are aware that there are other verses that say man will die are you not?

How can you know your judgment if you do not die?

There are many verses about death...but they need to be understood in context and in the overall message of scripture.
All will die physically except those that are alive and are in Christ at the time of the rapture (catching up) as described in I Thes. 4. Those are the ones who will be changed.

Who is the only one who can judge?

Can you clarify what you are asking?
I believe that what needs to be considered is who is being judged and when.
For those who are in Christ, there is no condemnation (by God). (Roman 8:1) But we will face the judgment seat of Christ for rewards or loss of rewards (II Cor. 5:10)
And while God is THE Judge, those of us in Christ will judge the world
1 Corinthians 6:2 "Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world?.." And..in verse 3 "Do you not know that that we shall judge angels?"
As far as timing, it matters if one is part of the first resurrection, or the second.

So maybe you could clarify?

Is it possible for any human being to suggest to you that you WILL be saved if you do this or that? If so what would be an example of this or that?
Justme

? Not sure of what you are asking.
My views on the endtimes, judgement, salvation, etc. are based on scripture. I firmly believe that when we repent, ask forgiveness of our sin and accept Christ that we are washed clean, our sins are covered, we are buried with Christ and raised to walk in the newness of life, and we become new creatures, become sealed in the Holy Spirit as the seal of our inheritance in Christ, AND
"I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" Jesus speaking in John 11:25-26

 

[GW]

I find it interesting that preterists must work so hard to change that verse.

Free,

Preterists do not change the verse. They correctly account for it in its fullness.

#1 - Paul teaches that 1 Thess 4:13-17 is a first-century event that both he and the Thessalonians should expect to live unto (and Paul could not err).

#2 - Paul explicitly teaches that only the dead were to be resurrected at the Parousia, not the living. Thus, the doctrine is always referred to as the resurrection of THE DEAD. It is an event for the dead

#3 - Paul explicitly states that the living will not be raised at that same time, but are to join the dead some time later in the heavenlies ("air").

#4 - In the second letter to the Thessalonians, we read that the Thessalonians believed the Parousia was then PASSED (2 Thess 2:2), thus proving their first-century expectation and proving that they did NOT think that the living ever were supposed to leave earth at the event.


So, what's the confusion? I believe it may be futurists that have misapplied the verse.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Free,

Preterists do not change the verse. They correctly account for it in its fullness.

#1 - Paul teaches that 1 Thess 4:13-17 is a first-century event that both he and the Thessalonians should expect to live unto (and Paul could not err).

It didn't happen in the 1st century, nor did Paul err. It is an expectation that all should have had then and since! We are to live as if we would meet our Lord today.

#2 - Paul explicitly teaches that only the dead were to be resurrected at the Parousia, not the living. Thus, the doctrine is always referred to as the resurrection of THE DEAD. It is an event for the dead

"Then we who are alive ... shall be caught up.." shows there is an event for the living as well. And that hasn't happened yet.

#3 - Paul explicitly states that the living will not be raised at that same time, but are to join the dead some time later in the heavenlies ("air").

not quite right...."the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive..shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..."

Note the "together with them" ?? The resurrected dead and the changed living both meet up with the Lord in the air...same time. The verse does not say "the dead rise first and meet the Lord, then after a period of indeterminate time, the living will be changed and also meet the Lord.'

#4 - In the second letter to the Thessalonians, we read that the Thessalonians believed the Parousia was then PASSED (2 Thess 2:2), thus proving their first-century expectation and proving that they did NOT think that the living ever were supposed to leave earth at the event.

Proof? no. Someone had presented a letter or message as if from Paul that the Day of the Lord had come. AND they were shaken up about it - because they did not expect to be in the Day of the Lord. They EXPECTED to be gone before the DOTL.

So, what's the confusion? I believe it may be futurists that have misapplied the verse.

I'm not confused - but Justme's questions were vague.
I already know why I am not a preterist.

 

[Justme]

Hi free,

From your post:
All will die physically except those that are alive and are in Christ at the time of the rapture (catching up) as described in I Thes. 4. Those are the ones who will be changed.
********************

All will die period.

1 Cor 15:52

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned–

Then to answer the question..."How can you know your judgment if you do not die?"....we can use the verse that also tells us man will die.

Hebrews 9

27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

Judgement comes after death.

My question:
Who is the only one who can judge?

Jesus...John 5:22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,

I liked your answer to the last question.

I read the following and wondered how you fit this in with your bible understanding?

"I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" Jesus speaking in John 11:25-26

Here Jesus is talking to a woman that has obviously physically died, yet Jesus told her she would never die, yet tho she died she would LIVE. ?????
I would like to hear how you interpret these verses.
How did Martha 'LIVE' after she died 1900 years ago?

You asked me:
As far as timing, it matters if one is part of the first resurrection, or the second.

So maybe you could clarify?

I am just trying to sort out what is meant by this second resurrection thing. I don't use the term 'second' resurrection so I can't give you a decent answer here, sorry.


Justme

 

[OldShepherd]

Hi free,

From your post:
All will die physically except those that are alive and are in Christ at the time of the rapture (catching up) as described in I Thes. 4. Those are the ones who will be changed.
********************

All will die period.

1 Cor 15:52

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned–

Then to answer the question..."How can you know your judgment if you do not die?"....we can use the verse that also tells us man will die.

Hebrews 9

27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

* * *
I read the following and wondered how you fit this in with your bible understanding?

"I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" Jesus speaking in John 11:25-26

Here Jesus is talking to a woman that has obviously physically died, yet Jesus told her she would never die, yet tho she died she would LIVE. ?????
I would like to hear how you interpret these verses.
How did Martha 'LIVE' after she died 1900 years ago?
Justme

[size=+1]You appear to be contradicting yourself. Does everybody die or not? If "All die period" as you said, 1 Cor 15:52, Romans 5:12, Hebrews 9:27, then how does Martha NOT die, John 11:25-26? And how do you interpret the verses about Enoch and Elijah?[/size]

 

[GW]

FREE:
It didn't happen in the 1st century, nor did Paul err. It is an expectation that all should have had then and since!

GW:
Since it is a fact that Paul and the Thessalonians did expect Christ's return in the first century, then all of today's popular prophecy teachings about "1948," "computer chips," the modern Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and the "church age" are necessarily FALSE, and are not part of true bible prophecy.



FREE:
"Then we who are alive ... shall be caught up.." shows there is an event for the living as well.

GW:
Naturally. Yet Paul makes a clear separation between the two (the living and the dead), and the separating factors include (1) TIME and (2) whether or not one is LIVING OR DEAD.



FREE:
not quite right...."the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive..shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..."

Note the "together with them" ?? The resurrected dead and the changed living both meet up with the Lord in the air...same time.

GW:
Paul teaches it is NOT at the same time. That's his whole point. Furthermore, in context, the "then we who are alive and remain" speaks of the members of the first-century Thessalonian congregation. Again, this necessarily makes the Parousia a first-century event.



FREE:
The verse does not say "the dead rise first and meet the Lord, then after a period of indeterminate time, the living will be changed and also meet the Lord.'

GW:
It does.




FREE:
Someone had presented a letter or message as if from Paul that the Day of the Lord had come. AND they were shaken up about it - because they did not expect to be in the Day of the Lord. They EXPECTED to be gone before the DOTL.

GW:
The Thessalonians believed the Day of the Lord had already arrived. This fact presents a massive dilemma for futurists, for it shows that they did NOT believe that event would include any rapture of humans off of earth into heaven (or into the sky?).



FREE:
I already know why I am not a preterist.

GW:
Christ and the apostles were preterists. Christ came back to the seven churches of Asia Minor of the first century. Read Revelation chapters 2-3. Christ's return is history, and was documented by scripture there. It all went down in their generation, exactly as Christ had said. For Jesus promised his apostles saying, "so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt 24:33-34)

 

[OldShepherd]

OK, Why don't you go ahead and explain the biblical, or otherwise, difference between "eita" and "epeita". Why would any greek writer choose to use one or the other? Use as many commentaries from as many Greek scholars as you feel are necessary.

[size=+1]For what purpose? I quoted a Greek scholar who taught PhD level Greek for 47 years. You did nothing to respond to Robertson but blow it off with,[/size] "Irrelevant. God does not require Several years of Greek Grammar and syntax training to understand His Gospel."

[size=+1]And in case you did not notice I posted two verses which unequivocally refute your contention that "epeita" does not mean immediately. I note you also did not respond to those. Since you are not responding to my posts there is no point in me posting the other five verses in which epeita is used in an immediate sense. You could surprise me and actually review ALL the relevant verses,. But I doubt it.[/size]

Irrelevant to my point, since I have shown that the physical body is not biblically necessary for the "Harpazo" event.

[size=+1]No you may have asserted that[/size], "the physical body is not biblically necessary for the "Harpazo" event.." [size=+1]BUT "not necessary" does not prove it did/does not happen. Also you no doubt provided a few "proof texts" to prove your argument and very likely omitted verses which contradicted your assertion as you did with the "epeita" verses.[/size]

Paul said not everyone would "sleep" which referrs to the unresurrected state of physical death BEFORE the parousia. Scripture never calls Physical death AFTER the parousia, "sleep".

[size=+1]Begging the question of "Parousia." And correct me if I'm wrong here but 1 Thessalonians was written BEFORE 70 AD when you claim the Parousia occurred.

I can't remember where I read this but Jesus told His disciples to go unto all nations teaching them ALL things that He had taught them. Either Jesus or His disciples did a poor job of teaching because outside of the disputed passages in Matthew 24, there is not one clear teaching of a first century Paraousia, in the NT, AND none of the early church fathers know about it. In fact the only church fathers who mention it ALL describe it as yet future from 100-200, etc. years AD.[/size]

 

[OldShepherd]

FREE:
GW:
Christ and the apostles were preterists. Christ came back to the seven churches of Asia Minor of the first century. Read Revelation chapters 2-3. Christ's return is history, and was documented by scripture there. It all went down in their generation, exactly as Christ had said. For Jesus promised his apostles saying, "so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt 24:33-34)

[size=+1]Where in scripture is it recorded that Christ came back to the seven churches of Asia Minor? Christ told John to write letters to those churches, His return was conditional, e.g. Rev 2:5, "else I will come unto thee quickly." There is NO scriptural record that Christ returned to those churches in the first or any other century, yet.[/size]

• 
  Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write;

GW:
The Thessalonians believed the Day of the Lord had already arrived. This fact presents a massive dilemma for futurists, for it shows that they did NOT believe that event would include any rapture of humans off of earth into heaven (or into the sky?).

[size=+1]Absolutely no dilemma at all. How does this passage prove,[/size] "they did NOT believe that event would include any rapture of humans off of earth into heaven?" [size=+1]Since the Thessalonians were mistaken about the day of the Lord having occurred, then very likely they were mistaken about what that day involved. Also any mistaken views they may have had does not mean that any other church in world held the same views.

See my previous post about Christ's commandment to His disciples to teach ALL things He had taught them and there being no clear record of a first century Parosuia taught in the N.T. or the early church. And that is a massive dilemma for the Preterists.[/size]

 

[FreeinChrist]

Hi free,

From your post:
All will die physically except those that are alive and are in Christ at the time of the rapture (catching up) as described in I Thes. 4. Those are the ones who will be changed.
********************

All will die period.

1 Cor 15:52
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned–

Then to answer the question..."How can you know your judgment if you do not die?"....we can use the verse that also tells us man will die.

This refers to original sin and separation from God. Because of Adam's fall, we inherit a sinful nature and are separated from God, but in Christ, we are forgiven because He made propitiation of our sin on the cross.
It is not saying that all must die a physical death, but that we are spiritually dead as the result of original sin. Enoch didn't physically die and neither did Elijah. Neither will those who are raptured as described in I Thes. 4.

I read the following and wondered how you fit this in with your bible understanding?

"I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" Jesus speaking in John 11:25-26

Here Jesus is talking to a woman that has obviously physically died, yet Jesus told her she would never die, yet tho she died she would LIVE. ?????
I would like to hear how you interpret these verses.
How did Martha 'LIVE' after she died 1900 years ago?

I believe that this verse shows that those who die in Christ will be resurrected 'at that Day' and those that are alive 'at that Day' will never die - as in those who are dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are alive...shall be caught up.." I Thes. 4.
It also could be used to show that those who are forgiven are spiritually alive and will not die spiritually...but in the context of the passage, I think it is a discussion of physical resurrection from death and rapture.

I am just trying to sort out what is meant by this second resurrection thing. I don't use the term 'second' resurrection so I can't give you a decent answer here, sorry.

Justme

I am referring to Revelation 20 and that those who were beheaded because they didn't take the mark, or worship the beast or its image were 'made alive' and that is part of the "first resurrection" and that after 1000 years, the rest of the dead are raised and judged by what is written in the books.
This all ties in with who gets judged by whom and when. Christ is the firstfruits of the first resurrection, which is a resurrection to life. The second resurrection is not necessarily a resurrection to life, in fact, I believe it is a resurrection to death.
We who are in Christ will not be judged by what is written in books (second resurrection) because we have been forgiven. 'In Christ there is no condemnation' since Jesus paid the price.

 

[FreeinChrist]

GW:
Since it is a fact that Paul and the Thessalonians did expect Christ's return in the first century, then all of today's popular prophecy teachings about "1948," "computer chips," the modern Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and the "church age" are necessarily FALSE, and are not part of true bible prophecy.

I disagree! Expecting a return does not necessitate that it happened in the first century. AND if it happened - all of the world missed it - even the church!

GW:
Naturally. Yet Paul makes a clear separation between the two (the living and the dead), and the separating factors include (1) TIME and (2) whether or not one is LIVING OR DEAD.

He separates the living and the dead....but they meet the Lord together. That is clear in the passage. "..together with them..."

Paul teaches it is NOT at the same time. That's his whole point. Furthermore, in context, the "then we who are alive and remain" speaks of the members of the first-century Thessalonian congregation. Again, this necessarily makes the Parousia a first-century event.

Yes, he does teach it is at the same time! And no, it is not necessarily a 1st century event. It didn't happen yet.

FREE:
The verse does not say "the dead rise first and meet the Lord, then after a period of indeterminate time, the living will be changed and also meet the Lord.'

GW:
It does.

ahh...read it again. The actual text. "together with them..to meet the Lord in the air."

GW:
The Thessalonians believed the Day of the Lord had already arrived. This fact presents a massive dilemma for futurists, for it shows that they did NOT believe that event would include any rapture of humans off of earth into heaven (or into the sky?).

Wow! You are ignoring the text of II Thes. too! The Thessalonians had believed the DOTL already arrived - and Paul told them they were wrong!!! They thought a message or letter that it had come was from from Paul himself, who led them to Christ in the first place. But it wasn't from Paul and that is why Paul points out how he signs his name at the end of II Thes.
So they were wrong in believing that false message, and they were shaken because in believing that false message, they thought they missed the rapture and were in the DOTL. So no, it does not prove that they didn't believe in the rapture (the catching up of those who are alive).
This passage does not pose a problem in the least for futurists.

GW:
Christ and the apostles were preterists.

Not true. Preterism means believing past events fulfilled all prophecy. With the exception of John and maybe a couple others, the apostles were dead before 70 A.D. They were futurists. Even John, who received and wrote Revelation in 95 A.D.

Christ came back to the seven churches of Asia Minor of the first century. Read Revelation chapters 2-3. Christ's return is history, and was documented by scripture there. It all went down in their generation, exactly as Christ had said. For Jesus promised his apostles saying, "so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt 24:33-34)

How bizarre, IMHO. It isn't documented in Rev. 2-3. There is no documentation of a Second Coming in 70 A.D. or in the rest of the first century. And the whole church missed it. And the rest of the world.
The Greek word translated as 'generation' also means 'race' or 'family lines' as in 'this race will not pass away until all these things take place' . And the Jews are still with us today.

 

[GW]

OLD SHEP:
Where in scripture is it recorded that Christ came back to the seven churches of Asia Minor?

GW:
In Revelation 2-3, Jesus Christ himself is applying the doctrine of the second coming to seven first-century churches. Was Jesus just mistaken? Had he forgotten about "1948", the "church age," super computers, the EU, and the Chinese army? Those things are modern speculation, and Jesus has no part in such speculation and the myths that emerge from them. I'll stick with Christ's view that He was coming to first-century churches, and I'll assume that He could not be wrong. We have it in writing, and that's good enough for me.




OLD SHP:
How does this passage prove, they did NOT believe that event would include any rapture of humans off of earth into heaven?"

GW:
If they believed the Day of Christ had already come, then there must also have been a mass disappearance of humans before their eyes, and graves must have all been opened (for that is what happens at the day of Christ, according to futurists). We know for a fact that the Thessalonians believed it was past without any of these things having taken place, proving that the Parousia has nothing at all to do with such events as futurists describe.


In sum, the expectations of the apostles point to a first-century event, and such is a fatal blow to all futurism. There can be no other acceptable views but those views held by them. Since they believed in a first-century return of Christ, and since Christ himself places his return with first-century churches, then we may teach no other view.

 

[GW]

FREE:
I disagree! Expecting a return does not necessitate that it happened in the first century.

GW:
It does. Since the apostles and Christ expected the second coming to occur in the first century, we know they were totally against modern teachings about "the Church age," "1948," the "European Union," the 100 million man army of China, and the computer chip "mark of the beast." For sure, Christ and the apostles did not look for such things because such things do not exist within the scope of true bible prophecy.



FREE:
AND if it happened - all of the world missed it - even the church!

GW:
I can live with you missing it, or even my favorite Church leaders. I cannot, however, abide with Christ being mistaken. "Let God be true and every man a liar."



FREE:
He separates the living and the dead....but they meet the Lord together. That is clear in the passage. "..together with them..."

GW:
When the living pass on and go to heaven, they will then be together with them, the dead, who were already there.


FREE:
Yes, he does teach it is at the same time!

GW:
It is NOT at the same time, and this is Paul's entire point. The living do not and cannot precede the dead, but must meet up with them later. That is Paul's clear teaching.


FREE:
And no, it is not necessarily a 1st century event. It didn't happen yet.

GW:
The bible mandates that it was a first-century event--Christ applies the doctine of the second coming to seven first-century churches of Asia Minor (read Revelation 2-3). Jesus could not have been mistaken. Jesus had already told the apostles that they would see all those signs as well as His return in their generation (Matt 24:33-34).




FREE:
The Thessalonians had believed the DOTL already arrived - and Paul told them they were wrong!!!

GW:
But the point is that they did not believe in any removal of humans off earth as you do, or of any grave openings. If they did, then they could not have believed the Day of Christ was past.




FREE
...they thought they missed the rapture and were in the DOTL.

GW:
They believed the second coming had already come.



FREE:
So no, it does not prove that they didn't believe in the rapture (the catching up of those who are alive). This passage does not pose a problem in the least for futurists.

GW:
The raising of the dead happens at the second coming of Christ (at "the Parousia") - 1 Cor 15:23. There is no prior "rapture." Paul writes, "we that remain alive unto the Parousia..." (1 Thess 4:15-17)



FREE:
Preterism means believing past events fulfilled all prophecy. With the exception of John and maybe a couple others, the apostles were dead before 70 A.D. They were futurists.

GW:
John was preterist on "the antichrist" (1 Jn 2:18-19). Christ was preterist on His return to the Asia Minor churches (Revelation 2-3). Jude was preterist on the last days apostasy (Jude 1). And they all taught and preached a second coming in their generation. The preterist view is the only biblical view on WHEN the last days generation was to take place.



FREE:
How bizarre, IMHO. It isn't documented in Rev. 2-3.

GW:
It is. Christ applies his second coming to the seven historic churches of Asia Minor that were the contemporaries of the apostle John. I'll stick with Christ's own view, and abandon all others.



FREE:
The Greek word translated as 'generation' also means 'race' or 'family lines' as in 'this race will not pass away until all these things take place' . And the Jews are still with us today.

GW:
First, the Jews are not still with us today.

Next, "genea" does not mean "race".

Finally, when we insert "race" into Matthew 24:34, we arrive at the racist teaching that the "Jews will pass away at the Parousia."


Futurism's days are numbered.

 

[OldShepherd]

In Revelation 2-3, Jesus Christ himself is applying the doctrine of the second coming to seven first-century churches. Was Jesus just mistaken?

[size=+1]As has already been stated at least twice, Christ Himself did NOT apply His coming to the first-century churches. This is reading into the passages what is not there. Jesus commanded John to write letters to the churches and His coming was conditional on their repentance. See, for example, the reference to the church at Ephesus. Note the “or else,” vs. 5. Where is one verse which states Christ came to the church at Ephesus, or any of the other 7 churches?[/size]

• 
  Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
  2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
  3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name’s sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
  4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
  5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

[size=+1]Jesus commanded His disciples to go into ALL the world teaching ALL things that He commanded them. Where is the clear teaching that Jesus would return in the first-century?[/size]

Had he forgotten about "1948", the "church age," super computers, the EU, and the Chinese army? Those things are modern speculation, and Jesus has no part in such speculation and the myths that emerge from them.

[size=+1]Oh be as snide and sarcastic as you like. You evidently have two standards one for yourself and another for those who differ with you. Those who claim Christ treat others the way they demand to be treated.

You have only asserted, not proven, that anything is speculation and myth. Here is a prophecy of the last days from about 700 BC. After the time of Joseph’s saving Israel, in Egypt, when in history was the ONLY time there was a treaty between Israel and Egypt? Did this happen in 70 AD?[/size]

• 
  Isa 19:23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

I'll stick with Christ's view that He was coming to first-century churches, and I'll assume that He could not be wrong. We have it in writing, and that's good enough for me.

[size=+1]You have in writing the interpretations of 18th and 19th century religionsists, never taught by the church. And if that is good enough for you, fine.[/size]

If they believed the Day of Christ had already come, then there must also have been a mass disappearance of humans before their eyes, and graves must have all been opened (for that is what happens at the day of Christ, according to futurists). We know for a fact that the Thessalonians believed it was past without any of these things having taken place, proving that the Parousia has nothing at all to do with such events as futurists describe.

’If they believed?” [size=+1]I thought according to you that it was a proven fact that is what they believed. 2 Thessalonians does not prove anything about what phenomenon the early church believed would accompany the Parousia. They did NOT believe that the day of Christ had already come but that it was imminent, as translated by the KJV and ASV, but I’m sure that you can find a version, or two, which will support your view. But that makes me wonder why some people jump around from version to version.

If one version, e.g. the NIV, is accurate, why not use it exclusively, instead of using different versions for different passages because one version seems to support a particular view while the other does not? Note, the KJV, ASV, Robertson, and Strong’s, quoted below, all of which refute your view.[/size]

• 
  ASV 2 Thess 2:2 to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is just at hand;
  
  AV 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
  
  Robertson, word Pictures in the New Testament, 2 Thess 2:2
  
  To the end that (eiV to). One of Paul’s favourite idioms for purpose, eiV to and the infinitive.
  
  Ye be not quickly shaken (mh tacew saleuqhnai umaV). First aorist passive infinitive of saleuw, old verb to agitate, to cause to totter like a reed (#Mt 11:7), the earth (#Heb 12:26). Usual negative (mhmh and accusative of general reference (umaV with the infinitive.
  
  From your mind (apo tou nooV). Ablative case of nous, mind, reason, sober sense, "from your witte" (Wyclif), to "keep their heads."
  
  Nor yet be troubled (mhde qroeisqai). Old verb qroew, to cry aloud (from qroo, clamour, tumult), to be in a state of nervous excitement (present passive infinitive, as if it were going on), "a continued state of agitation following the definite shock received (saleuqhnai)" (Milligan).
  
  Either by spirit (mhte dia pneumatov). By ecstatic utterance (#1Th 5:10). The nervous fear that the coming was to be at once prohibited by mhde Paul divides into three sources by mhte, mhte, mhte. No individual claim to divine revelation (the gift of prophecy) can justify the statement.
  
  Or by word (mhte dia logou). Oral statement of a conversation with Paul (Lightfoot) to this effect
  
  as from us. An easy way to set aside Paul’s first Epistle by report of a private remark from Paul.
  
  Or by epistle as from us (mhte di epistolhV wV di hmwn). In #1Th 4:13-5:3 Paul had plainly said that Jesus would come as a thief in the night and had shown that the dead would not be left out in the rapture. But evidently some one claimed to have a private epistle from Paul which supported the view that Jesus was coming at once,
  
  as that the day of the Lord is now present (wV oti enesthken h hmera tou kuriou). Perfect active indicative of (enisthmi, old verb, to place in, but intransitive in this tense to stand in or at or near. So "is imminent" (Lightfoot). The verb is common in the papyri. In #1Co 3:22; Ro 8:38 we have a contrast between ta enestwta, the things present, and ta mellonta, the things future (to come). The use of wv oti may be disparaging here, though that is not true in #2Co 5:19. In the Koiné it comes in the vernacular to mean simply "that" (Moulton, Proleg., p. 212), but that hardly seems the case in the N.T. (Robertson, Grammar, p. 1033). Here it means "to wit that," though "as that" or "as if" does not miss it much. Certainly it flatly denies that by conversation or by letter he had stated that the second coming was immediately at hand. "It is this misleading assertion that accounts both for the increased discouragement of the faint-hearted to encourage whom Paul writes #1:3-2:17, and for the increased meddlesomeness of the idle brethren to warn whom Paul writes #3:1-18" (Frame). It is enough to give one pause to note Paul’s indignation over this use of his name by one of the over-zealous advocates of the view that Christ was coming at once. It is true that Paul was still alive, but, if such a "pious fraud" was so common and easily condoned as some today argue, it is difficult to explain Paul’s evident anger. Moreover, Paul’s words should make us hesitate to affirm that Paul definitely proclaimed the early return of Jesus. He hoped for it undoubtedly, but he did not specifically proclaim it as so many today assert and accuse him of misleading the early Christians with a false presentation.
  
  1764 enisthmi enistemi en-is’-tay-mee
  from 1722 and 2476; TDNT-2:543,234; v
  AV-present 3, things present 2, be at hand 1, come 1; 7
  1) to place in or among, to put in
  2) to be upon, impend, threaten
  3) close at hand
  4) present

In sum, the expectations of the apostles point to a first-century event, and such is a fatal blow to all futurism.

[size=+1]It appears that every group that opposes traditional Christianity thinks they have one verse which completely destroys the teaching of the church. Other than a few disputed verses in Matthew 24, there is no clear teaching in the N.T. by any apostle, Peter, James, John, or Paul, which states or implies that the apostles expected anything in the first-century. And even in Matthew, you must resort to the ruse of saying many things, which do not fit your view, are spiritual, symbolic, metaphorical, or figurative.[/size]

There can be no other acceptable views but those views held by them. Since they believed in a first-century return of Christ, and since Christ himself places his return with first-century churches, then we may teach no other view.

[size=+1]You have not proven any view held by the apostles. You have not proved that Christ places His return with the first-century churches. With the exception of Paul’s statement that “we who are alive and remain will be caught up to be with Him.,” none of the other writers show they believed that Jesus would return in the first-century. And Paul did not remain alive until 70 AD when you claim Jesus returned, indicating that his inspiration by the Holy Spirit was faulty or he was talking about a future generation that was alive at that time.[/size]

 

[GW]

OLD SHEP:
As has already been stated at least twice, Christ Himself did NOT apply His coming to the first-century churches.

GW:
He did, and all unbiased minds can read Revelation 2 and 3 to see it is so.



OLD SHEP:
Jesus commanded John to write letters to the churches and His coming was conditional on their repentance.

GW:
The second coming of Jesus Christ was a conditional first-century event based on the decisions of men??? The second coming of Jesus Christ was delayed 2000+ years because some first-century men did or did not not repent when Jesus attempted to come back for them? Not hardly.

Furthermore, St. John did not say Christ's coming to them was conditional. RATHER, what was conditional was whether or not Jesus was going to reward them or punish them at his coming to them. That Jesus was returning to those seven churches of Asia Minor is not in question, if we are to trust the words of St. John and Jesus Christ.



OLD SHEP:
See, for example, the reference to the church at Ephesus. Note the “or else,” vs. 5. Where is one verse which states Christ came to the church at Ephesus, or any of the other 7 churches?

GW:
The condition placed on Ephesus is whether or not they would be punished or rewarded ("removal of lampstand"). For sure, if they DID NOT repent, Christ's coming to them served to remove their lampstand. So, if they did not repent, and if Christ did not then follow up by coming and removing their lampstand, then Christ is a proven false prophet, for he plainly threatened to come quickly and remove their lampstand. There is no way around it.

Compare also to Thyatira where Jesus promised to come and kill off their false prophetess and her followers (Rev 2:20-25). Jesus gave her time to repent and she did not. Therefore Jesus promised to come kill her and her followers, and the godly ones in Thyatira were told to hang on for that coming (Rev 2:25)! I remind everyone reading here that Jesus could not lie to them or break his promises, else He is not Messiah. There is no way around this--Jesus Christ plainly applied his second coming to all the first-century Churches mentioned in Revelation. It is a simple fact.




OLD SHEP:
Oh be as snide and sarcastic as you like.

GW:
It is not snide. It is the undeniable reality of what you are teaching. You are teaching that Jesus conditionally offered his second coming to first century churches and then withdrew his offer based on their decisions. Aside from the overwhelming doubt such a view casts upon the sovereignty of God as well as upon the predestinational nature of prophecy, I must point out that your teaching makes impossible the popular speculations that "1948", the "church age," super computers, the EU, and the Chinese army are true predestined events of bible prophecy. For if those things were true biblical prophecy, then Jesus Christ could NOT have even remotely suggested his return would be to the first century Churches! But, since Jesus Christ did apply his return to the first-century Churches of Asia Minor, we therefore know that "1948", the "church age," super computers, the EU, and the Chinese army are NOT predestined events of true bible prophecy, but are modern myths. Jesus knew nothing of them at the time St. John announced Christ's apocalypse to the world.




OLD SHEP:
You have in writing the interpretations of 18th and 19th century religionsists, never taught by the church. And if that is good enough for you, fine.

GW:
Christ's words in Revelation 2 and 3 are not the words or interpretations of 18th and 19th century religionists.



OLD SHEP:
They did NOT believe that the day of Christ had already come but that it was imminent

GW:
The Greek Textus Receptus says "...the day of christ is present." They believed the day of Christ was already present.




OLD SHEP
Other than a few disputed verses in Matthew 24, there is no clear teaching in the N.T. by any apostle, Peter, James, John, or Paul, which states or implies that the apostles expected anything in the first-century.

GW:
LOL. Such a blatant denial of the facts is pure entertainment. Every NT writing by an apostle taught a first-century return of Jesus Christ.




OLD SHEP:
You have not proven any view held by the apostles. You have not proved that Christ places His return with the first-century churches.

GW:
All unbiased minds reading Revelation 2-3 can see that Christ is applying his second coming TO THEM. Jesus could not err or mislead or fail to deliver on his promises to them, else He is not the Messiah and our Christian faith is in vain.



OLD SHEP:
With the exception of Paul’s statement that “we who are alive and remain will be caught up to be with Him.,” none of the other writers show they believed that Jesus would return in the first-century.

GW:
I have 101 verses that show they did believe in a first-century parousia. I will post them next...

 

[GW]

List of 101 Time Indicators for the Second Coming of Christ


1. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2)

2. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7)

3. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Matt. 3:10)

4. "His winnowing fork is in His hand." (Matt. 3:12)

5. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)

6. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 10:7)

7. "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)

8. "...the age about to come." (Matt. 12:32)

9. "The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds." (Matt. 16:27)

10. "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27)

11. "'When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?' '...He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.' '...Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.' ...When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Matt. 21:40-41,43,45)

12. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)

13. "From now on, you [Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin] shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:64; Mk. 14:62; Lk. 22:69)

14. "The kingdom of God is at hand." (Mk. 1:15)

15. "What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others. ...They [the chief priests, scribes and elders] understood that He spoke the parable against them." (Mk. 12:9,12)

16. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Mk. 13:30)

17. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Lk. 3:7)

18. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Lk. 3:9)

19. "His winnowing fork is in His hand..." (Lk. 3:17)

20. "The kingdom of God has come near to you." (Lk. 10:9)

21. "The kingdom of God has come near." (Lk. 10:11)

22. "What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others." ...The scribes and the chief priests...understood that He spoke this parable against them." (Lk. 20:15-16,19)

23. "These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Lk. 21:22)

24. "This generation will not pass away until all things take place." (Lk. 21:32)

25. "Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.' Then they will begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us,' and to the hills, 'Cover us.'" (Lk. 23:28-30; Compare Rev. 6:14-17)

26. "We were hoping that He was the One who is about to redeem Israel." (Lk. 24:21)

27. "I will come to you. ...In that Day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.' ...'Lord, what then has happened that You are about to disclose Yourself to us, and not to the world?'" (Jn. 14:18,20,22)

28. "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?" (Jn. 21:22)

29. "This is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 'And it shall be in the last days...'" (Acts 2:16-17)

30. "He has fixed a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness..." (Acts 17:31)

31. "There is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." (Acts 24:15)

32. "As he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment about to come..." (Acts 24:25)

33. "Not for [Abraham's] sake only was it written, that [faith] was reckoned to him [as righteousness], but for our sake also, to whom it is about to be reckoned." (Rom. 4:23-24)

34. "If you are living according to the flesh, you are about to die." (Rom. 8:13)

35. "I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is about to be revealed to us." (Rom. 8:18)

36. "It is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is at hand." (Rom. 13:11-12)

37. "The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet." (Rom. 16:20)

38. "The time has been shortened." (I Cor. 7:29)

39. "The form of this world is passing away." (I Cor. 7:31)

40. "Now these things ...were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come." (I Cor. 10:11)

41. "We shall not all fall sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed." (I Cor. 15:51-52)

42. "Maranatha!" [The Lord comes!] (I Cor. 16:22)

43. "...not only in this age, but also in the one about to come." (Eph. 1:21)

44. "The Lord is near." (Phil. 4:5)

45. "The gospel ...was proclaimed in all creation under heaven." (Col. 1:23; Compare Matt. 24:14; Rom. 10:18; 16:26; Col. 1:5-6; II Tim. 4:17; Rev. 14:6-7; cf. I Clement 5,7)

46. "...things which are a shadow of what is about to come." (Col. 2:16-17)

47. "...we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord... We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds... ...You, brethren, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you like a thief." (I Thess. 4:15,17; 5:4)

48. "May your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (I Thess. 5:23)

49. "It is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire." (II Thess. 1:6-7)

50. "Godliness ...holds promise for the present life and that which is about to come." (I Tim. 4:8)

51. "I charge you ...that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ." (I Tim. 6:14)

52. "...storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for that which is about to come, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed." (I Tim. 6:19)

53. "In the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self... ...Avoid these men. For of these are those who enter into households and captivate weak women... ...These also oppose the truth... ...But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all..." (II Tim. 3:1-2,5-6,8-9)

54. "I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is about to judge the living and the dead..." (II Tim. 4:1)

55. "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son." (Heb. 1:1-2)

56. "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who are about to inherit salvation?" (Heb. 1:14)

57. "He did not subject to angels the world about to come." (Heb. 2:5)

58. "...and have tasted ...the powers of the age about to come." (Heb. 6:5)

59. "For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near a curse, and it's end is for burning." (Heb. 6:7-8)

60. "When He said, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear." (Heb. 8:13)

61. "The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way of the [heavenly] Holy Places has not yet been revealed, while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation." (Heb. 9:8-10; Compare Gal. 4:19; Eph. 2:21-22; 3:17; 4:13)

62. "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things about to come..." (Heb. 9:11)

63. "Now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin." (Heb. 9:26)

64. "For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things about to come..." (Heb. 10:1)

65. "...as you see the Day drawing near." (Heb. 10:25)

66. "...the fury of a fire which is about to consume the adversaries." (Heb. 10:27)

67. "For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay." (Heb. 10:37)

68. "For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the one that is about to come." (Heb. 13:14)

69. "Speak and so act, as those who are about to be judged by the law of liberty." (Jms. 2:12)

70. "Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. ...It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!" (Jms. 5:1,3)

71. "Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord." (Jms. 5:7)

72. "You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand." (Jms. 5:8)

73. "...salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (I Peter 1:6)

74. "He ...has appeared in these last times for the sake of you." (I Peter 1:20)

75. "They shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead." (I Peter 4:5)

76. "The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer." (I Peter 4:7)

77. "For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God." (I Peter 4:17)

78. "...as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is about to be revealed." (I Peter 5:1)

79. "We have the prophetic word ...which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the Day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts." (II Peter 1:19)

80. "Their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep." (II Peter 2:3)

81. "In the last days mockers will come. ...For this they willingly are ignorant of..." (I Peter 3:3,5)

82. "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God." (II Peter 3:10-12)

83. "The darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining." (I Jn. 2:8)

84. "The world is passing away, and its desires." (I Jn. 2:17)

85. "It is the last hour." (I Jn. 2:18)

86. "Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour." (I Jn. 2:18; Compare Matt. 24:23-34)

87. "This is that of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world." (I Jn. 4:3; Compare II Thess. 2:7)

88. "For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation. ...About these also Enoch ...prophesied, saying, 'Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly...'" (Jude 1:4,14-15)

89. "But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, 'In the last time there shall be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.' These are the ones who cause divisions..." (Jude 1:17-19)

90. "...to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place." (Rev. 1:1)

91. "The time is near." (Rev. 1:3)

92. "Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come." (Rev. 2:25)

93. "I also will keep you from the hour of testing which is about to come upon the whole world." (Rev. 3:10)

94. "I am coming quickly." (Rev. 3:11)

95. "And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron." (Rev. 12:5)

96. "And in her [the Great City Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." (Rev. 18:24; Compare Matt. 23:35-36; Lk. 11:50-51)

97. "...to show to His bond-servants the things which must shortly take place." (Rev. 22:6)

98. "Behold, I am coming quickly." (Rev. 22:7)

99. "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Rev. 22:10; Compare Dan. 8:26)

100. "Behold, I am coming quickly." (Rev. 22:12)

101. "Yes, I am coming quickly." (Rev. 22:20)

 

[OldShepherd]

OLD SHEP:
As has already been stated at least twice, Christ Himself did NOT apply His coming to the first-century churches.

GW:
He did, and all unbiased minds can read Revelation 2 and 3 to see it is so.

[size=+1]Here is the Ephesus passage again. Please show me where Jesus states He is, in fact, coming to the Ephesus church. Jesus knew how to say what He intended to say, and John knew how to write it down correctly. Jesus said, "Repent or else I come quickly" What does "or else" mean? Is it or is it not a conditional statement?[/size]

• 
  Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
  2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
  3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name’s sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
  4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
  5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

GW:
The second coming of Jesus Christ was a conditional first-century event based on the decisions of men??? The second coming of Jesus Christ was delayed 2000+ years because some first-century men did or did not not repent when Jesus attempted to come back for them? Not hardly.

[size=+1]Yes hardly! Please read my previous response and post. Where does any passage in Rev. say Jesus attempted to come back to them? Also read Rev 23:14 ff. Jesus makes no mention of coming to the church at Laodicea.[/size]

Furthermore, St. John did not say Christ's coming to them was conditional. RATHER, what was conditional was whether or not Jesus was going to reward them or punish them at his coming to them. That Jesus was returning to those seven churches of Asia Minor is not in question, if we are to trust the words of St. John and Jesus Christ.

[size=+1]Please read what the scripture actually says, "or else I will come unto thee quickly", "or else" modifies "come quickly." Jesus did NOT say "Or else I will come and quickly remove"[/size]

GW:
The condition placed on Ephesus is whether or not they would be punished or rewarded ("removal of lampstand"). For sure, if they DID NOT repent, Christ's coming to them served to remove their lampstand. So, if they did not repent, and if Christ did not then follow up by coming and removing their lampstand, then Christ is a proven false prophet, for he plainly threatened to come quickly and remove their lampstand. There is no way around it.

[size=+1]Then all you have to do is prove, from any reliable source, the Ephesus church did not repent and Christ did come and remove their candlestick. Please see previous answers.[/size]

Compare also to Thyatira where Jesus promised to come and kill off their false prophetess and her followers (Rev 2:20-25). Jesus gave her time to repent and she did not. Therefore Jesus promised to come kill her and her followers, and the godly ones in Thyatira were told to hang on for that coming (Rev 2:25)!

[size=+1]Where does Jesus say He will "come" to the church to accomplish this? Even the Roman centurion recognized that Jesus did not have to come to his home to heal his servant. Can the Godly ones still hang on today?[/size]

GW:
It is not snide. It is the undeniable reality of what you are teaching. You are teaching that Jesus conditionally offered his second coming to first century churches and then withdrew his offer based on their decisions.

[size=+1]Offered? You have to be joking. That was not an offer to come but a warning that He would come if they did not repent. That was not a coming they would be anxious for.

Sure it is snide. Where have I ever mentioned any of those things? Also I haven't seen any attempt to address the prophecy of Isaiah, a genuine prophecy, with easily verifiable conditions.[/size]

GW:
Christ's words in Revelation 2 and 3 are not the words or interpretations of 18th and 19th century religionists.

[size=+1]What does "Or else I will come quickly" mean? God sent virtually the same message to Nineveh, by Jonah. What was the outcome? Did God destroy Nineveh or did God NOT destroy Nineveh, because they did repent, Jonah 3:10?[/size]

GW:
The Greek Textus Receptus says "...the day of christ is present." They believed the day of Christ was already present.

[size=+1]The TR was written in Greek and I quoted sources which exegete the Greek. Do you read Greek, or do you read your favorite translations?[/size]

GW:
LOL. Such a blatant denial of the facts is pure entertainment. Every NT writing by an apostle taught a first-century return of Jesus Christ.

[size=+1]Choose your words carefully. Denial of facts? What does "or else" mean? "Soon", "quickly", "at hand," etc. are NOT clear teachings. The Jewish fathers, before Christ, taught an imminent coming, for over 2000 years, 2 Pet 3:4. At Passover every family sets a place for the Messiah, because they believe He will come. Since 70 AD the Jews have sang, "Next year in Jerusalem." That OBTW was the Jewish understanding, then. The disciples were Jewish were they not?[/size]

• 
  2 Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

[size=+1]Quotes from your list of "proof texts."[/size]

42. "Maranatha!" [The Lord comes!] (I Cor. 16:22)

[size=+1]Robertson, "The Aramaic phrase means 'Our Lord comes""[/size]

7. "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)

[size=+1]Jesus told His disciples specifically to not go in the way of the gentiles or any city of the Samaritans, to go ONLY to the house of Israel. However, in John 4:5 ff. the disciples go into a city of Samaria. Acts 8:5, Philip preaching in Samaria. Acts 8:14, Peter and John preaching in Samaria. Acts 8:40 Philip preaches in Azotus (Ashdod) and other Philistine cities.

And Paul writes that the gospel was preached to "every creatrure" and "all nations." If you read the context of Matt 10:23 ff. you will clearly see your "proof text" does not refer to the Parousia, but one specific missionary journey, after which Jesus does come and rejoin His disciples and they are criticized by Pharisees for supposedly violating the Sabbath, Matt 12:1, ff.[/size]

• Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
  
  Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
  26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

[size=+1]Was the gospel NOT preached to gentiles or Samaritans before the Parousia, i.e. "coming of the Son of Man" or was it preached to "every creature" and "all nations?"[/size]

28. "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?" (Jn. 21:22)

[size=+1]I have already explained the Greek grammar of this verse several times. It does NOT support your contention. Had Jesus intended to state a definite possibility He would have used a different form of the word "If," as in Philippians 1:1, oun is a conditon of the first class, which assumes the conditon to be certain.[/size]

• 
  Thayer’s Lexicon.
  ean Condition of the third class. A conditional particle (derived from ei an) which makes reference to time and to experience, introducing something future, but not determining before the event whether it is certainly to take place.