Questions about preterism

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FreeinChrist

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GW:
"...Paul, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes to no more than seven churches by name."

Quite simply, the Canon states that Paul, in writing to seven churches, was following John's rule. There is no way around it. This supports the early-date of Revelation, and this statement was made around 170AD.
No, Paul was an apostle after John, and the writer of the Muratorian Canon saw the Second coming as a future event.
I already pointed out the reasons why Revelation was not written before Paul’s letters.
1) the church in Ephesus. Paul makes no mention that the church had lost it’s first love. And your excuse posted farthur down of ‘all of Asia have turned against me" does not hold. It’s smoke and mirrors. You are claiming that Paul was following John’s example of writing to 7 churches (as if he read it) – so if there was a problem in Ephesus, such as losing the first love or that they had turned against Paul – Paul’s letter to the Ephesians would have been far different!
2) Smyrna was not reached in Paul’s lifetime – per Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna and pupil of John. Paul wrote that the gospel as they heard was preached to ‘every creature ‘ which is under the heaven – so were the Chinese reached by 62 AD? The Aborigines in Australia – were they reached? Hmmm…about the tribes that lived in South America? Have they all know of Jesus of Nazareth since before 62AD? Aren’t they part of "every creature under the heaven"?
Instead I believe this refers to what Paul wrote about in Romans 1-2. Not as you are interpreting it.
3) Laodicea – Paul does not refer to them as lukewarm, but as an active group of Christians. Paul does not write about them as if they are about to be ‘spit out’.
And yes, the Laodiceans did lose wealth from the earthquake – a lot. The British Museam put out catalogs about Greek and Roman coins. There is evidence from the coinage that there was a marked lack of coin from the 60’s from Laodicea. There were only 2 kinds under Vespasian. In contrast, there is lots from the period under Dominitan. The ruins of Laodicea, the great public buildings, were built after the earthquake, not finished til about 90 AD.
Now add to this that John was banished to Patmos when he wrote Revelation. There is no historical record that Nero banished anyone, or that John was banished before late 80’s AD. The ONLY record we have is that he was banished under Dominitan, and that Dominitan banished people to Patmos.

GW:
No one is debating that ECFs futurized the second coming (beyond what scripture allows, of course).
No, they believed it was future because it hadn’t happened yet.

--COMPARE THIS--

Revelation 3:20 (Christ to the first-century Laodiceans)
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
That this is included in the letter to Laodicea shows that Christ wasn’t even in their church. He’s outside, wanting to come in! . Similar to many church groups today, who have a meaningless faith. Jesus is telling them that if they open the door to Him, He will come in. The overcomers will open that door..​
--TO THIS--

Luke 12:36-37
"Be like men who are waiting for their master when he returns from the wedding feast, so that they may immediately open the door to him when he comes and knocks. Blessed are those slaves whom the master will find on the alert when he comes; truly I say to you, that he will gird himself to serve, and have them recline at the table, and will come up and wait on them.
And this is a different situation from Rev. 3:20, entirely. In this passage, Jesus is telling His followers to be watchful, be ready – and that still stands today!​
Frankly, it is bad exegesis of scripture to think these two verses are related as you put them.​
In Laodicea, Jesus is asking to come in – so they can be overcomers.​
In Luke 12, He is saying, ‘Be ready! Be doing My work when I come!’​
FREE:
Also, regarding Gentry, he quotes people in the 1800's who actually favored a postNero date for the writing. They don't really back him up at all!

GW:
There are two traditions on when Revelation was written. So...? We already establshed this. The point is that the late date is without any historical evidence. There was no persecution launched against Christianity by Domitian, and the Jewish-led persecution was still raging when John wrote (Rev 2:9; 3:9). And the Temple was still standing (Rev 11:2) and the city of Jerusalem was under attack (Rev 11:8, 13). This demands the early date.


What it shows, GW, is that Gentry was not very careful in his quotes, to use what truly supported his view. Many of the writers he quoted – besides being after 1800 – saw it written after Nero died.
And the late date has the historical support, which the early date is sorely missing.
ALL the ECF who see the Second Coming as future, and write that Revelation was written during the time of Dominitan.
There is history, recorded by a Roman, who writes of the freeing of those Dominitan banished – from Patmos!.
There is no evidence that the persecution of Nero included banishment, or that it extended beyond the city of Rome.
History does not record an event that fits the events of Revelation – no two witnesses who are resurrected. The seas did not all turn to blood. All sealife did not die. No 200,000,000 horsemen. No ‘Wormwood’ fell on the earth. Nero did not fit the activities of the beast, or of Daniel 7…..etc,. etc., etc.
All of this is fatal to the preterist view…along with the rest that I presented in this thread.

BTW -
Phillip Schaff, who advocates the earlier date, calls Irenaeus’s writing "clear and weighty testimony."


 
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FreeinChrist

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FREE:
Descending to ad hominen attack should be beneath you.

GW:
Claiming today's Jews will go extinct at the second coming (based on Matt 24:34) is serious stuff. It is no ad hominem to come against all forms of anti-semitism. I hope you will seriously consider retracting your interpretation of Matthew 24:34 and admit that a racial interpretation of the passage is very, very wrong.
:mad:That’s pathetic and stupid, GW, to make the claim that I said they will go EXTINCT!!! I didn’t claim that – and you are LYING OR PURPOSELY MISLEADING if you insist that I did! Frankly, my respect for you has just bottomed out! Apparently honesty in debate means little you.:(

If you truly read what I have written, or had any understanding of the view you oppose – you’d understand that what Dispensationism believes is that Christ will reign on this earth for 1000 years, and that 1/3 of the Jews that are alive during the tribulation will survive, having turned to Christ, and will REIGN with Him. Does that sound as if I think they will be extinct???? Hardly.

It is Dispensationsim that points out Romans 11: 25 – 29…"and so shall all Israel be saved…" – sound like extinction, GW?

It is Dispensationism that points out that Zechariah 14 is yet to be fulfilled – ever read it? And points out Ezekiel 36 and 37 as to be fulfilled yet…so is that extinction? Let me give you a hint - NO.

It has been from preterists that I have heard statements that the current state of Israel means nothing and claim that it was the Jews who were (are) of the kingdom of the beast. Some of the most anti-Semitic comments I have heard have come from preterists.
For instance, Dr. Moses Stuart, the father of American Preterism, referred to Israel as "God’s ancient enemy." And I have heard stuff like that from other preterists.
Talk about RACIST! So get off the high horse, GW!
GW:
No you couldn't introduce me to a few, or any. The tribal records were all destroyed at AD 70. There are no twelve tribes anymore.
YES, I could introduce you to a few. They may not know the tribe, but that is by the design of God, so that no one else can claim to be of the tribe of Judah and be the Christ.
GW:
The gentiles became co-heirs of Israel's inheritance back in the first century. That was achieved via the mission of Paul. We are not still waiting for the gentiles to receive their fulness.
More very, very poor interpretaion, GW. Or of deliberate effort to misrepresent scripture.
We are still in the times of the ‘fullness of the Gentiles’. Jerusalem had been overrun by Gentiles since about 70 AD. Still is if you bother to check the maps for where the Palestinians have territory. It is the Jordanian authority that have control of the Temple Mount.
Jesus said that the city would be overrun til the times of the fullness of the Gentiles is complete.
Seems to me that you ignore this statement from Jesus.
GW:
. You should simply admit when you are wrong.
You should take your own advice, GW.
GW:
Not true. The Holy Bible is THE #1 book on the question of WHEN JESUS RETURNED, and it fuly supports the preterist view.
Not true – it never says that He already returned! Why misrepresent it?
Preterism, as you teach it, didn’t exist before the 1600’s. PERIOD.
Even full preterist, Samuel Frost, writes that it is of recent development.
And Preterism has to insist that the ECF were all in error. That is a weak stance, frankly – if you must insist that those who died for Christ in the Early church were error in order for your view to be true! .
FREE:
And earlier you referenced John of Gischala as a false messiah. But he never declared himself to be a God.

GW:
The Zealots overthrew the Laws of Moses, the priesthood and the Temple, and set up their own regime at the Temple to rule the Nation from AD 66-70. There has been no higher abomination or desolation. And DESOLATION is exactly what they got at AD 70 (Luke 21:20-23/Rev 17:16-17).
Ruling as a king is not the same as claiming to be the Messiah. Josephus, who preterism elevates to godhood, it seems, does not says John of Gischala made that claim. And they did not like each other!

And yes, there was already a greater desolation…by Antiochus Epiphanes. He sacrificed a pig in the Holy of Holies. He claimed himself God in the temple of God. He set up statues of himself in the temple of God. He persecuted and tortured and killed the people of God, until he was finally overthrown in the Maccabean Revolt.
The Zealots did not do that – the sacrifices continued until stopped by the Roman army.
To restate: futurism is the unbiblical tradition of men. Preterism is biblical doctrine taught by Christ and the apostles.
No, preterism is a far more recent theory developed to try and counteract the teachers of ‘higher criticism’, and unsupported by history, by the ECF, and by scripture.

 
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