-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
-
CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Question that is preventing me from investigating Christianity further
- Thread starter alexiscurious
- Start date
I do not agree with that person and the Bible does not say they were perfect. Jesus was perfect and A&E were not clones of Christ.
I will address this on your other thread
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Because I've realized I'm not getting any help here in the wide variety of differing opinions in this thread. Everyone has their own take on this and no one can provide me with a reasonable answer to my question.
I have some other threads you can comment on though. Just as interesting.
Upvote
0
oi_antz
Opposed to Untruth.
Everyone has opinions, but not every opinion is equal. Some opinions are right and some opinions are wrong. You can see that your problem is based on a belief that I have not accepted, and I have asked you to show me why you think it is a valid belief. I just wondered why you did not reply to that, and I also wondered if it is a question you have not asked. I have had a suspicion that by questioning the validity of your belief then your whole OP becomes nullified, and I have also wondered whether this might be preventing you from questioning the belief. I could be wrong in this suspicion of course, but I won't know unless I ask you.
Upvote
0
What questions would you specifically like me to answer?
Do you believe Adam and Eve were created perfect? If so, you should have no problem accepting that the life you are living now is not the life God planned for you to have. I am supposed to willingly accept that my life God destined me to have was drastically altered by the reckless actions of two individuals, who for some apparent reason, thought that the paradise God gave them wasn't enough, so they screwed it up for everyone else. You could claim that if I were in their position I would do the same, but how would you know that? Were you and I given the same opportunity? My whole question revolves around why this is, and is this fair? Why am I where I am today and how can God justify putting billions in the same group called "sinners" when only two really deserve to be there. I believe in action and consequence. And so far, I see no action on my part to be in a world where I am enslaved to sin. Angels did not have to deal with the actions of Satan. So why should I have to deal with the actions of Adam and Eve? Sure you can claim angels are a whole other set of creation that follow a whole other set of rules. But really we are just like them. We have a beginning just like them. The only difference is that their beginning wasn't tampered with like mine was.
Upvote
0
oi_antz
Opposed to Untruth.
From #51: What reason do you have to think that we are to be held accountable for someone else's sin?
No I don't. Perfect is to have no fault, which is not consisent with the story. It doesn't make sense either, because perfect is to be complete, but they were obviously lacking something and when they became aware of it they desired it. Therefore I don't think perfection really applies to anything that begins and grows.
This doesn't make sense to me because I suppose instead that God is perfect (ie, without fault). If you use the word 'desire' instead of 'plan', I would be more willing to agree.
Pretty much, yes. Otherwise you wouldn't have the complaint you do have - being apart from God. It doesn't have to be that way. It is that way because you choose to make it that way.
What causes something to be deemed 'sin'? If you understand that and why we do it, then you will have your answer.
You are right about that. Even if you weren't in a world enslaved by sin, you would not be there because of some action you took.
What do you base this belief on? I showed you scripture that states otherwise, can you provide scripture too?
You don't. They aren't here. What you do have to deal with are the actions of your fellow man, and they have to deal with your actions too.
I don't know enough about it to make those assumptions. How come you do?
Again, this is something I don't know. I don't know if angels are still being created, and if they are then you are not correct. I don't know where you got your information about angelology, can you tell me?
Upvote
0
Angelquill
Bard of Angels
I'm beginning to think that there is no answer that you will accept.
The fact is that, however it happened, you are not perfect. Like every other man or woman on this planet, you have sinned, and fallen short of God's glory.
Now it doesn't really matter how you got here, the fact is that you are here. The question is, what will you do about it?
You have a choice. You can accept Christ's generous offer...or you can reject it.
You can whine about the unfairness of it all, and expect someone else to explain God's motives to you...as if anyone could do that. That's up to you. You may not understand why God put you in the situation. Maybe you never will.
However, you do understand the simple choice before you. Eternal life in Paradise with God through Christ...or...
I do hope that you will choose Christ.
The fact is that, however it happened, you are not perfect. Like every other man or woman on this planet, you have sinned, and fallen short of God's glory.
Now it doesn't really matter how you got here, the fact is that you are here. The question is, what will you do about it?
You have a choice. You can accept Christ's generous offer...or you can reject it.
You can whine about the unfairness of it all, and expect someone else to explain God's motives to you...as if anyone could do that. That's up to you. You may not understand why God put you in the situation. Maybe you never will.
However, you do understand the simple choice before you. Eternal life in Paradise with God through Christ...or...
I do hope that you will choose Christ.
Upvote
0
Angelquill
Bard of Angels
As for the angels...they are a different order of being entirely.
You think it is not fair that the angels that did not sin are not being held accountable for those who did.
Have you ever thought that the angels who did not sin do not have the choice that you have been given? There is no salvation for them. Their fate was sealed from the moment that they rebelled.
No angel will ever have the opportunity to sing "I have been redeemed".
You have that opportunity.
Those fallen angels may want it...but they can't have it.
Don't blow it.
You think it is not fair that the angels that did not sin are not being held accountable for those who did.
Have you ever thought that the angels who did not sin do not have the choice that you have been given? There is no salvation for them. Their fate was sealed from the moment that they rebelled.
No angel will ever have the opportunity to sing "I have been redeemed".
You have that opportunity.
Those fallen angels may want it...but they can't have it.
Don't blow it.
Upvote
0
Dear alexiscurious. When we ask quite simply Why? then what only comes to me is: God made us all in His image, and we are told by God to populate this Earth. Think of our GENES, which are hereditary. We are all the same, ready to sin and forget the Love and Compassion which God wants us to have.
The O.T. shows us the depth which we humans have sunk to, and it was not until Jesus our Saviour showed us what God wants from us.
In Matthew 5:48: Jesus told us what that is: " Be ye perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect." In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us what God wants: 1) Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. 2) Love our neighbour as we love ourselves. The Bible tells us:
" Repent, and Be Born Again." We have to change from our old nature to want and wish whatever we think of, and become Loving God with all our beings, and loving all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends,
(our neighbour) as we love ourselves. Matthew 7: 7-10 tells us: " ask and ye shall receive," we ask for Love and Joy, then we thank God and share all
Love and Joy with our neighbour. We keep asking and receiving, then thanking God and sharing all with all around us. God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. Jesus our Saviour will help and guide us:
JESUS IS THE WAY. Love and Compassion is what God wants from us:
in all we say and do, we might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and CARRY ON LOVING AND CARING. That is what God wants from us: Love God with all our hearts, and souls, and minds, AND
love our neighbour as we love ourselves. I say this with love, alex.
Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
The O.T. shows us the depth which we humans have sunk to, and it was not until Jesus our Saviour showed us what God wants from us.
In Matthew 5:48: Jesus told us what that is: " Be ye perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect." In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us what God wants: 1) Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. 2) Love our neighbour as we love ourselves. The Bible tells us:
" Repent, and Be Born Again." We have to change from our old nature to want and wish whatever we think of, and become Loving God with all our beings, and loving all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends,
(our neighbour) as we love ourselves. Matthew 7: 7-10 tells us: " ask and ye shall receive," we ask for Love and Joy, then we thank God and share all
Love and Joy with our neighbour. We keep asking and receiving, then thanking God and sharing all with all around us. God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. Jesus our Saviour will help and guide us:
JESUS IS THE WAY. Love and Compassion is what God wants from us:
in all we say and do, we might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and CARRY ON LOVING AND CARING. That is what God wants from us: Love God with all our hearts, and souls, and minds, AND
love our neighbour as we love ourselves. I say this with love, alex.
Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
Upvote
0
Ellwood3
Active Member
alexicurious said:
Do you believe Adam and Eve were created perfect? If so, you should have no problem accepting that the life you are living now is not the life God planned for you to have. I am supposed to willingly accept that my life God destined me to have was drastically altered by the reckless actions of two individuals, who for some apparent reason, thought that the paradise God gave them wasn't enough, so they screwed it up for everyone else. You could claim that if I were in their position I would do the same, but how would you know that? Were you and I given the same opportunity? My whole question revolves around why this is, and is this fair? Why am I where I am today and how can God justify putting billions in the same group called "sinners" when only two really deserve to be there. I believe in action and consequence. And so far, I see no action on my part to be in a world where I am enslaved to sin. Angels did not have to deal with the actions of Satan. So why should I have to deal with the actions of Adam and Eve? Sure you can claim angels are a whole other set of creation that follow a whole other set of rules. But really we are just like them. We have a beginning just like them. The only difference is that their beginning wasn't tampered with like mine was.
You are asking how you can believe in a God who seems so unfair to you that you were given the consequences of someone elses sins.
At the same time, you want to avoid being outside His will in being sent to the Lake of Fire in case that God does exist. But how could you love a God like that, who seems to treat you unfairly?
God has not been unfair. Through Adam and Eve you were created in His image.
You exist. You didnt pay anything for that. And you have arms and legs, likely, right?
What have you done to earn them? Have you a mind? Why?
What use have you been to the Creator of the Universe? And do you have two eyes, or
two feet? How did you earn them?
Do you breathe? What have you done to earn air? Did you put oxygen in the air that
justifies you in taking it out? What did you do to earn life or breath?
Is your Creator a dog under your feet who does nothing as sensibly as you would, were you God instead?
Do you even receive the light He sends you? The spiritual truths? Or do they fall at your feet?
This is a man who was born without arms and legs. Yet he is not angry at God for being unfair. He has been on a journey, and today lives aware of Gods goodness in his life, though once he wanted to die. He tells about his life here.
Nick Vujicic :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXlCeKBWfaA
This is a woman who is a quadriplegic, she has no use of her arms or legs. If you asked her if God has been unfair, she would say no. She too once sought death but on her journey toward God found a richer life and deeper faith.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWVyVMbSzM4
In this video, that is her husband, Ken Tada, pressing on her stomach to help her hit the notes. This movie, Alone Yet Not Alone, is now in theatres. Its a Christian movie.
Her site Joni and Friends, that helps people with disabilities
Joni and Friends
This is a show telling about the film:
Video » Alone, Yet Not Alone | LIFEToday.org
You are not alone in this universe. There is a God who loves you like He loves His only begotten Son, Jesus.
You have earned nothing. He has given you every good thing you ever have had or ever
will have.
Your call is to keep seeking to find Him, and learn how to stay on the road even though life will not always be fair.
Do you believe Adam and Eve were created perfect? If so, you should have no problem accepting that the life you are living now is not the life God planned for you to have. I am supposed to willingly accept that my life God destined me to have was drastically altered by the reckless actions of two individuals, who for some apparent reason, thought that the paradise God gave them wasn't enough, so they screwed it up for everyone else. You could claim that if I were in their position I would do the same, but how would you know that? Were you and I given the same opportunity? My whole question revolves around why this is, and is this fair? Why am I where I am today and how can God justify putting billions in the same group called "sinners" when only two really deserve to be there. I believe in action and consequence. And so far, I see no action on my part to be in a world where I am enslaved to sin. Angels did not have to deal with the actions of Satan. So why should I have to deal with the actions of Adam and Eve? Sure you can claim angels are a whole other set of creation that follow a whole other set of rules. But really we are just like them. We have a beginning just like them. The only difference is that their beginning wasn't tampered with like mine was.
You are asking how you can believe in a God who seems so unfair to you that you were given the consequences of someone elses sins.
At the same time, you want to avoid being outside His will in being sent to the Lake of Fire in case that God does exist. But how could you love a God like that, who seems to treat you unfairly?
God has not been unfair. Through Adam and Eve you were created in His image.
You exist. You didnt pay anything for that. And you have arms and legs, likely, right?
What have you done to earn them? Have you a mind? Why?
What use have you been to the Creator of the Universe? And do you have two eyes, or
two feet? How did you earn them?
Do you breathe? What have you done to earn air? Did you put oxygen in the air that
justifies you in taking it out? What did you do to earn life or breath?
Is your Creator a dog under your feet who does nothing as sensibly as you would, were you God instead?
Do you even receive the light He sends you? The spiritual truths? Or do they fall at your feet?
This is a man who was born without arms and legs. Yet he is not angry at God for being unfair. He has been on a journey, and today lives aware of Gods goodness in his life, though once he wanted to die. He tells about his life here.
Nick Vujicic :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXlCeKBWfaA
This is a woman who is a quadriplegic, she has no use of her arms or legs. If you asked her if God has been unfair, she would say no. She too once sought death but on her journey toward God found a richer life and deeper faith.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWVyVMbSzM4
In this video, that is her husband, Ken Tada, pressing on her stomach to help her hit the notes. This movie, Alone Yet Not Alone, is now in theatres. Its a Christian movie.
Her site Joni and Friends, that helps people with disabilities
Joni and Friends
This is a show telling about the film:
Video » Alone, Yet Not Alone | LIFEToday.org
You are not alone in this universe. There is a God who loves you like He loves His only begotten Son, Jesus.
You have earned nothing. He has given you every good thing you ever have had or ever
will have.
Your call is to keep seeking to find Him, and learn how to stay on the road even though life will not always be fair.
Upvote
0
One third of the angels in heaven fell with Satan, because they went against God together with him:
"His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. [...]" (Revelation 12:4 NKJV)
This is not literal, but it refers to the fall of Satan and a third of the angels in heaven.
Jesus said: "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Matthew 25:41 NKJV)
Another verse, in Jude:
"And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;" (Jude 1:6)
"His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. [...]" (Revelation 12:4 NKJV)
This is not literal, but it refers to the fall of Satan and a third of the angels in heaven.
Jesus said: "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Matthew 25:41 NKJV)
Another verse, in Jude:
"And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;" (Jude 1:6)
Upvote
0
They went against God by their own decision not by Satan's. How is it fair that all other humans should be involved in the consequence of Adam/Eve's decision?
Upvote
0
Original sin has caused all of humanity to be apart from God. Any sin I have committed in my lifetime had no impact on where I am now.
Upvote
0
Angelquill
Bard of Angels
Angels are a completely different order of being. The angels who sinned are paying for their sin. The rest of the angels did not sin, so what is your point?
Upvote
0
G
Godislove94
Guest
Hello! I'm actually glad I found this question because it's giving me a reason to build up answers for any agnostics or atheists I run across....I think what you're asking is, why didn't God intervene to make the next generation of humanity perfect after Adam and Eve sinned so that we wouldn't be stuck with the consequences of their actions, correct? This is just to clarify for any other posters on here.
Upvote
0
It's fair because God is a just God, and because we have descended from Adam and Eve, we share in the consequences of their sin and we share in the sin and death that came through Adam, because of genetics among other things.
However, God still chose to make it possible for man to be reconciled with Him, first through sacrifices and so, which point to the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross once and for all. So one shouldn't only look at the negative consequences for humanity, but see that God demonstrated His love toward us by giving His only begotten Son to die for us.
Many would probably say that Satan also had a part in convincing them to rebel against God, or similar. (In response to your other post).
Upvote
0
Similar threads
