Question that is preventing me from investigating Christianity further

[Ellwood3]

Hello Christian Forums,

The question on my mind has been bothering me for a while now. I would appreciate as many replies and thoughts on this as possible.

MY QUESTION:
How was I born into this crooked and corrupt life apart from my creator? Whenever I ask myself this question I am directed to Romans 5:12. This verse takes me to the story of the first two humans in existence. I realize their stupidity, but why should their decision affect me in any way? Was I consulted before they picked a fruit off a tree? Was I secretly involved in their defiance and disobedience? How in the world am I supposed to accept the punishment for a decision that was not mine to make? How did you and I get tangled up in this mess to begin with?

From what I understand, God originally planned humanity to be perfect and to live with him in harmony forever. How was the life God destined for me and you altered because of a careless decision someone else made? Romans 3:23 says because one man sinned we all fall short of the glory of God. When Satan/Luficer/The Devil sinned did all angels fall short of the glory of God as well? That isn't the case. So why is it humans are the only part of creation that this weird concept seems to apply to? Why did other angels not have to share punishment for what Satan did? But yet, I am supposed to accept the punishment for what Adam/Eve did? How does this make any sense?

So why is it I'm sitting here now, in this incomplete state, where I have to reconcile with my creator before the end of my life or else I will be in eternal damnation? Why couldn't I live the blissful and worry-free life God intended for me to have?

Thanks,
Alex

What if your human mother and dad both were blue-eyed? Genetically, you would be blue-eyed also (two recessive genes create blue eyes, and both your genes are recessives). Would you complain about this, or think it would do you any good if you did? What did I do to deserve blue eyes? I wanted brown--why was this not my choice?

Because it wasn't. It's the nature of things. You got what they had and delivered to you.

Okay--in some ways it may appear not to be suitable--the first man and woman were in relation with God before the fall. Their sin came later. Why should that change anything permanently? If someone put some poison in the souppot, why shouldn't that only impact whoever put in the poison? But if someone else comes along, they get poisoned too. Think of it like that: Adam and Eve became spiritually poisoned. It contaminated all their descendents.

Let's say they never sinned. No one else ever did either. One day you are born. Do you think you would never have sinned? To sin means to fall short--do you ever fall short? If you were given their temptation, are you sure you would never have taken it?

The point is when they fell, God already had a rescue plan in place from before the earth's foundations. He plan was to pay the price Himself to rescue the whole creation.

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Revelation%2013%3A8

And that is what Jesus did on the cross.

Also, it's not just humans who fell; their sin impacted the whole creation. Romans 8 tells us all creation waits on tiptoe for its final redemption. If you are part of creation, than final redemption is available for you.


Philips translation:

Present distress is temporary and negligible

18-21 In my opinion whatever we may have to go through now is less than nothing compared with the magnificent future God has planned for us. The whole creation is on tiptoe to see the wonderful sight of the sons of God coming into their own. The world of creation cannot as yet see reality, not because it chooses to be blind, but because in God’s purpose it has been so limited—yet it has been given hope. And the hope is that in the end the whole of created life will be rescued from the tyranny of change and decay, and have its share in that magnificent liberty which can only belong to the children of God!

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans 8&version=PHILLIPS


If you are seeking that "blissful and worry-free" life back in the garden--wondering why you can't have it--let's say your parents lived in a very nice place when you were born, but they didn't follow the rules of their mortgage agreement, and lost it and had to move out. Now your brothers and sisters say, we're innocent, don't we have the right to live there?

How would you explain it to them?


"You Don't Know What You've Got 'Til It's Gone"
Joni Mitchell Big Yellow Taxi - YouTube


God made the Road back to Himself long before the world was lost.

Rich Mullins - My Deliverer.wmv - YouTube

 

[Ellwood3]

I think it helps to remember the story in the Bible is about a good God, who takes on our punishment. Not about us being treated unfairly.

Here's a fine example of a summary of the whole Bible, from Volume 13 of the new What's in the Bible DVD series:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oGTCyQp67A

 

[alexiscurious]

What if your human mother and dad both were blue-eyed? Genetically, you would be blue-eyed also (two recessive genes create blue eyes, and both your genes are recessives). Would you complain about this, or think it would do you any good if you did? What did I do to deserve blue eyes? I wanted brown--why was this not my choice?

Is eye color something God can punish you for? No. Is Adam/Eve's sins something God has punished me for? Yes (an unavoidable and inevitable separation from him that needs to be patched before the end of my life or bad things will happen).

Because it wasn't. It's the nature of things. You got what they had and delivered to you.

Is this fair? Who decides how the consequences of sin play out for an entire generation? Angels surely did not have to pay for the sins their fellow angels committed? Why should I have to pay for the sins my fellow human beings did?

Okay--in some ways it may appear not to be suitable--the first man and woman were in relation with God before the fall. Their sin came later. Why should that change anything permanently? If someone put some poison in the souppot, why shouldn't that only impact whoever put in the poison? But if someone else comes along, they get poisoned too. Think of it like that: Adam and Eve became spiritually poisoned. It contaminated all their descendents.

Let's say they never sinned. No one else ever did either. One day you are born. Do you think you would never have sinned? To sin means to fall short--do you ever fall short? If you were given their temptation, are you sure you would never have taken it?

I don't think I was given the opportunity, unfortunately. How fair is that?

Are you asking me if I had everything in paradise forever would I screw my everything up for an apple which effects take away my everything? Nah I think I'll keep my everything forever. Sorry Satan???

 

[rstrats]

Ellwood3,

re: "...the story in the Bible is about a good God, who takes on our punishment."


Exactly what punishment was taken on that would otherwise have to be taken on by us?

 

[bling]

Hello Christian Forums,

The question on my mind has been bothering me for a while now. I would appreciate as many replies and thoughts on this as possible.

MY QUESTION:
How was I born into this crooked and corrupt life apart from my creator? Whenever I ask myself this question I am directed to Romans 5:12. This verse takes me to the story of the first two humans in existence. I realize their stupidity, but why should their decision affect me in any way? Was I consulted before they picked a fruit off a tree? Was I secretly involved in their defiance and disobedience? How in the world am I supposed to accept the punishment for a decision that was not mine to make? How did you and I get tangled up in this mess to begin with?

From what I understand, God originally planned humanity to be perfect and to live with him in harmony forever. How was the life God destined for me and you altered because of a careless decision someone else made? Romans 3:23 says because one man sinned we all fall short of the glory of God. When Satan/Luficer/The Devil sinned did all angels fall short of the glory of God as well? That isn't the case. So why is it humans are the only part of creation that this weird concept seems to apply to? Why did other angels not have to share punishment for what Satan did? But yet, I am supposed to accept the punishment for what Adam/Eve did? How does this make any sense?

So why is it I'm sitting here now, in this incomplete state, where I have to reconcile with my creator before the end of my life or else I will be in eternal damnation? Why couldn't I live the blissful and worry-free life God intended for me to have?

Thanks,
Alex

Lots of really good questions here.

You have also showed lots of logical wisdom in your responses to those that have tried to help you with their poor answers.

I might not get to all your questions right now, but will get started, my answers are different, but can be defined with scripture and are better than what you have been getting.

You have to understand man’s and God’s objective in all this since like it should be in any organization the objective drives the conclusion:

1. God is not trying to “get” something from man (man cannot “provide” anything for God), but God as pure unselfish charity is trying to give the greatest most powerful gifts possible to man. These gifts will enable man to be like God himself in that they will have Godly type Love (God is Love).

2. Godly Love compels God to do all He does, so it is the greatest force in all universes.

3. There are things that just cannot be done even by God and one thing God cannot do is program a person to have Godly type Love (an instinctive love) since that love would be a robotic type love.

4. God cannot force Godly type Love on a being, since that would be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun.

5. This “Love” has to be the result of a “free will” choice with likely alternatives (those alternatives for man are “the perceived pleasures of sin for a season”.

6. Man not ever sinning is not man’s objective, since obtaining and growing this Godly type Love is man’s objective (along with this Love God throws in heaven, eternal life, and a wonderful close relationship to sweeten the offer) we become like God Himself.

Adam and Eve’s first sin is not described in scripture as a “fall” and is a transition.

You did not “inherit” anything bad from Adam and Eve, your “nature” prior to your fist sin is the same as Adam/Eve.

Adam and Eve did obtain additional “knowledge” that was passed down to all of us in the form of a conscience, but is knowledge bad in and of itself?

Here is the question:


Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to be obedient to all God’s rules forever (that is the garden before sin situation) or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your humbly accepting God’s charity (that is where you are today)?

Man just cannot by man’s own power continue forever in obedience and that is what our best all human representatives (Adam and Eve) showed us early on in this story.

Yes, lots of things were “cursed” by God to provide limited resources, pain, death, and hardship, but these things also helped humans to fulfill their earthly objective.

God made Adam and Eve as He describes “very good” but that is not perfect. Christ was perfect but Christ was not a created being and always had Godly type Love. We on the other hand have to obtain Godly type Love, but remember we just cannot be created with this Love.

God is doing all He can to help us choose His Love over selfish love, but it has to be a real choice (no gun to the head).

 

[oi_antz]

Alex, you didn't tell me what you think of my post #35. I would like you to say it.

Angels surely did not have to pay for the sins their fellow angels committed?

Actually, yes:
Revelation 12:7

Why should I have to pay for the sins my fellow human beings did?

Can you tell me what is the basis of this belief? I am not saying it is not true, but I am intending to take you to a realization that you are equally someone else's fellow sinner. I think that will answer your question. I would still like to know what is behind your belief though.

 

[alexiscurious]

Alex, you didn't tell me what you think of my post #35. I would like you to say it.

Actually, yes:
Revelation 12:7

Can you tell me what is the basis of this belief? I am not saying it is not true, but I am intending to take you to a realization that you are equally someone else's fellow sinner. I think that will answer your question. I would still like to know what is behind your belief though.

Angels are not held accountable for their fellow angels sins. They are accountable for their own. Your reference does not answer anything.

When Adam/Eve sinned, it was decided that the entirety of humanity would be obligated and forced to be a part of that decision (to rebel against God). God detached from humanity as soon as they sinned. My relationship and the life God intended me to have was lost before I ever existed. My sins simply had nothing to do with it because I hadn't been brought into existence yet. This is a true statement that you somehow don't seem to agree with. You don't know your own Bible.

Romans 5:12 NLT:

When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.

What do you think this verse says about everyone's current status with God?

 

[alexiscurious]

You did not “inherit” anything bad from Adam and Eve, your “nature” prior to your fist sin is the same as Adam/Eve.

If what you say is true, and I inherited nothing from the sin of Adam/Eve how can the following verse be true:

Romans 5:12 NLT:
When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.

 

[RDKirk]

If what you say is true, and I inherited nothing from the sin of Adam/Eve how can the following verse be true:

Romans 5:12 NLT:
When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.

That would only have relevance if you have not sinned yourself. You're saying that you're being held back by only by an irrelevancy. What is intelligent about that?

 

[Angelquill]

Angels are not held accountable for their fellow angels sins. They are accountable for their own. Your reference does not answer anything.

Angels do not have children. They are immortal. Therefore, they can't pass their "sin nature" to another generation. Which is probably just as well...

When Adam/Eve sinned, it was decided that the entirety of humanity would be obligated and forced to be a part of that decision (to rebel against God). God detached from humanity as soon as they sinned. My relationship and the life God intended me to have was lost before I ever existed. My sins simply had nothing to do with it because I hadn't been brought into existence yet. This is a true statement that you somehow don't seem to agree with. You don't know your own Bible.

Romans 5:12 NLT:

When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.

What do you think this verse says about everyone's current status with God?

I think you're missing the important phrase "everyone sinned". Unless you are going to sit there and tell these good people that you, personally, have never sinned.

What that verse says about everyone's current status with God is that everyone of us is guilty of sin...our own sin.

That's the bad news.

The good news is that you can be righteous before God, through Jesus Christ, Who gave Himself for you.

You can continue to whine about your "undeserved fate", or you can own up to your sin, repent, and accept Jesus as your Savior.
It's up to you...

 

[oi_antz]

Angels are not held accountable for their fellow angels sins. They are accountable for their own. Your reference does not answer anything.

What reason do you have to think that we are to be held accountable for someone else's sin?

When Adam/Eve sinned, it was decided that the entirety of humanity would be obligated and forced to be a part of that decision (to rebel against God). God detached from humanity as soon as they sinned.

I don't think this is true, can you please provide your reference for this belief? I showed you a reference that demonstrates He was still accessible and keen to help us. You still managed to not answer my question from #35. Is it hard to answer?

My relationship and the life God intended me to have was lost before I ever existed. My sins simply had nothing to do with it because I hadn't been brought into existence yet. This is a true statement that you somehow don't seem to agree with. You don't know your own Bible.

Romans 5:12 NLT:

When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.

What do you think this verse says about everyone's current status with God?

It doesn't. It says that everyone sins and therefore dies. You seem to be reading this as a spiritual death. Even so, this verse says that everone dies because everone sins. What is this spiritual death then? Is it the same as I think it is, when we suppress what we know God is telling us, and therefore push Him away? If not, can you please describe the way that you understand it?

 

[Albion]

When Adam/Eve sinned, it was decided that the entirety of humanity would be obligated and forced to be a part of that decision (to rebel against God). God detached from humanity as soon as they sinned. My relationship and the life God intended me to have was lost before I ever existed.

Of course. We understand that.

My sins simply had nothing to do with it because I hadn't been brought into existence yet.

Right again, but it doesn't mean that you don't inherit from your parents. If they were dwarfs or carry the gene for some disease like Huntington's, you have the probability of getting it also. So also Original Sin and a fallen nature.

 

[alexiscurious]

What reason do you have to think that we are to be held accountable for someone else's sin?

I have already explained this and if you look at the post above, Albion seems to agree with it just fine. You are the only one who has a problem with it.

I don't think this is true, can you please provide your reference for this belief? I showed you a reference that demonstrates He was still accessible and keen to help us. You still managed to not answer my question from #35. Is it hard to answer?

You don't need a reference. Your relationship with him was lost before you ever existed, otherwise you wouldn't be apart from him and living a completely different life than the one he planned for you to have.

#35: The Lord spoke to him. That's all that I see in this verse. They are still living apart from him (not in paradise) and in complete sin.

It doesn't. It says that everyone sins and therefore dies. You seem to be reading this as a spiritual death. Even so, this verse says that everyone dies because everyone sins. What is this spiritual death then? Is it the same as I think it is, when we suppress what we know God is telling us, and therefore push Him away? If not, can you please describe the way that you understand it?

It says Adam's sin brought sin to everyone. So if you would agree with this verse you would have to agree with the statement: Your relationship with him was lost before you ever existed.

 

[alexiscurious]

Of course. We understand that.


Right again, but it doesn't mean that you don't inherit from your parents. If they were dwarfs or carry the gene for some disease like Huntington's, you have the probability of getting it also. So also Original Sin and a fallen nature.

Now we go back to my main point. Why should I have to inherit it? Is this fair? If I wasn't involved in the decision to rebel, why should I be involved in the consequences of it?

 

[oi_antz]

I have already explained this and if you look at the post above, Albion seems to agree with it just fine. You are the only one who has a problem with it.

Oh, I must have overlooked it. Can you please provide the post number?

You don't need a reference.

I do. I don't take your opinion as an authority on the matter, and I want to know whose authority you are referencing.

Your relationship with him was lost before you ever existed, otherwise you wouldn't be apart from him and living a completely different life than the one he planned for you to have.

What makes you so sure that I am living apart from Him and having a different life than He planned?

#35: The Lord spoke to him. That's all that I see in this verse. They are still living apart from him (not in paradise) and in complete sin.

But God went away from Adam and Eve while they were in paradise. That verse says that God wanted Cain to master sin, and was coaching Him. That demonstrates to me that God was still accessible. Why do you think that you don't have the same access to God's help in mastering sin?

It says Adam's sin brought sin to everyone. So if you would agree with this verse you would have to agree with the statement: Your relationship with him was lost before you ever existed.

No I don't agree with that. My relationship with Him did not exist until I became aware of it though.

 

[Albion]

Now we go back to my main point. Why should I have to inherit it? Is this fair?

My question would be, "What is fair?" Is it some modern concept of equality? Why is not "actions have consequences" thought to be just as "fair?"

God isn't an equalitarian product of the Enlightenment; he's the Creator, the Almighty, and his ways are not necessarily our ways.

 

[alexiscurious]

My question would be, "What is fair?" Is it some modern concept of equality? Why is not "actions have consequences" thought to be just as "fair?"

God isn't an equalitarian product of the Enlightenment; he's the Creator, the Almighty, and his ways are not necessarily our ways.

"That's just the way things are" is summarizing your reply.

My mind doesn't work like that. I need a feasible, understandable, sensible reason as to why I'm apart from a creator who loves me as much as the Bible claims. Please don't tell me that I'm apart from him simply because of my own sins because we have already established my sins have absolutely nothing to do with it. My relationship with him was lost way before I ever existed as you and I both agree. If your asking me to accept the consequences for someone else's choice to rebel then I can't do it. It was their choice to rebel, not mine, and I had no part in it. So why should I be a part of the consequences? My relationship with a fair and loving creator should not be altered because of someone else's screw up. So why am where I am now? What has he held me accountable for that he could justify putting me here? It is not due to my own sins, that is for sure.

 

[Albion]

"That's just the way things are" is summarizing your reply.

Not exactly, although each of us has to realize, sooner or later that we cannot expect to define God as we'd like to think of him. He is what he is, and there is no reason he cannot be something that doesn't quite fit our own Western, democratic, egalitarian, due process, Love is All, social ideas of the moment.

My mind doesn't work like that.

I understand. What I was doing was asking you to detach yourself from your basic view and consider the matter from a broader perspective.

I need a feasible, understandable, sensible reason as to why I'm apart from a creator who loves me as much as the Bible claims.

Oh, I think that what I told you is entirely feasible. In fact, much more feasible than assuming that God has to be whatever his creature thinks he must, by nature, be...or else he's not going to qualify.

Please don't tell me that I'm apart from him simply because of my own sins because we have already established my sins have absolutely nothing to do with it. My relationship with him was lost way before I ever existed as you and I both agree. If your asking me to accept the consequences for someone else's choice to rebel then I can't do it. It was their choice to rebel, not mine, and I had no part in it. So why should I be a part of the consequences?

Well, let me ask you why you "should be" the beneficiary or victim, depending upon the situation, of anything else that your ancestors did? Quite a bit of our "lot" in life results from that, so why cannot your spiritual standing be affected similarly??????

My relationship with a fair and loving creator should not be altered because of someone else's screw up.

"Should not be?" Who gets to decide what God's justice requires--you or me...or God?

So why am where I am now? What has he held me accountable for that he could justify putting me here? It is not due to my own sins, that is for sure.

Au contraire. Your own sins--and we all have them--are just as capable of estranging you from God as is Original Sin. The problem you think you are avoiding by rejecting the concept of Original Sin actually cannot be avoided unless you want to claim to never have transgressed against what's right at any time in your life, in which case, you'd be the first person since Christ to pull it off.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Hello Christian Forums,

The question on my mind has been bothering me for a while now. I would appreciate as many replies and thoughts on this as possible.

MY QUESTION:
How was I born into this crooked and corrupt life apart from my creator? Whenever I ask myself this question I am directed to Romans 5:12. This verse takes me to the story of the first two humans in existence. I realize their stupidity, but why should their decision affect me in any way? Was I consulted before they picked a fruit off a tree? Was I secretly involved in their defiance and disobedience? How in the world am I supposed to accept the punishment for a decision that was not mine to make? How did you and I get tangled up in this mess to begin with?

From what I understand, God originally planned humanity to be perfect and to live with him in harmony forever. How was the life God destined for me and you altered because of a careless decision someone else made? Romans 3:23 says because one man sinned we all fall short of the glory of God. When Satan/Luficer/The Devil sinned did all angels fall short of the glory of God as well? That isn't the case. So why is it humans are the only part of creation that this weird concept seems to apply to? Why did other angels not have to share punishment for what Satan did? But yet, I am supposed to accept the punishment for what Adam/Eve did? How does this make any sense?

So why is it I'm sitting here now, in this incomplete state, where I have to reconcile with my creator before the end of my life or else I will be in eternal damnation? Why couldn't I live the blissful and worry-free life God intended for me to have?

Thanks,
Alex

It is not possible for a creature with free will to always choose to do what is right.

Free will requires "original sin".

God could have made robots who didn't sin, or creatures capable of love who do sin.

Love is not possible without free will.

 

[Josephus]

Hello Christian Forums,

The question on my mind has been bothering me for a while now. I would appreciate as many replies and thoughts on this as possible.

MY QUESTION:
How was I born into this crooked and corrupt life apart from my creator? Whenever I ask myself this question I am directed to Romans 5:12. This verse takes me to the story of the first two humans in existence. I realize their stupidity, but why should their decision affect me in any way? Was I consulted before they picked a fruit off a tree? Was I secretly involved in their defiance and disobedience? How in the world am I supposed to accept the punishment for a decision that was not mine to make? How did you and I get tangled up in this mess to begin with?

From what I understand, God originally planned humanity to be perfect and to live with him in harmony forever. How was the life God destined for me and you altered because of a careless decision someone else made? Romans 3:23 says because one man sinned we all fall short of the glory of God. When Satan/Luficer/The Devil sinned did all angels fall short of the glory of God as well? That isn't the case. So why is it humans are the only part of creation that this weird concept seems to apply to? Why did other angels not have to share punishment for what Satan did? But yet, I am supposed to accept the punishment for what Adam/Eve did? How does this make any sense?

So why is it I'm sitting here now, in this incomplete state, where I have to reconcile with my creator before the end of my life or else I will be in eternal damnation? Why couldn't I live the blissful and worry-free life God intended for me to have?

Thanks,
Alex

Just as the writer of Hebrews points out that Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek because Levi was in the loins of Abraham, so too this Hebraic concept can be applied in the fall of all mankind through Adam. When G-d created Adam, he created all mankind within him. Literally within his loins. As a result, when Adam sinned, we all sinned. To a point, our physicality was there. This is not true of angels who were created separate from one another and do not multiply from another angel.

A person might argue they would have decided differently than Adam did, but this is not so according to a Jewish understanding of the Hebrew scriptures. Adam was in a perfect state but still chose what he did. Can we have done any better? Scripturaly speaking we were there in Adam. All mankind was. Just like Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek, so too all mankind choose to eat from the forbidden tree through Adam. Because we were physically there, in his loins, we were diminished from our original state of perfection when Adam was so diminished. We also therefore received the same physical concequence of death and the need for a perfect second Adam redeemer's merit to accord to us the level of righteousness lost which is required for a return to our place in the World to Come - Eden renewed. Our responsibility to re-attain this perfection is all fair no matter in what circumstance one finds themselves. The same level of challenge Adam faced in his perfection to obey one prohibition is the same level we face in our imperfection to obey multiple prohibitions and commands. This is the basis for "all have sinned" for we did sin through Adam which is made evident in our own lives.