Question that is preventing me from investigating Christianity further

[RDKirk]

"That's just the way things are" is summarizing your reply.

My mind doesn't work like that. I need a feasible, understandable, sensible reason as to why I'm apart from a creator who loves me as much as the Bible claims. Please don't tell me that I'm apart from him simply because of my own sins because we have already established my sins have absolutely nothing to do with it. My relationship with him was lost way before I ever existed as you and I both agree. If your asking me to accept the consequences for someone else's choice to rebel then I can't do it. It was their choice to rebel, not mine, and I had no part in it. So why should I be a part of the consequences? My relationship with a fair and loving creator should not be altered because of someone else's screw up. So why am where I am now? What has he held me accountable for that he could justify putting me here? It is not due to my own sins, that is for sure.

Why would you necessarily expect to be connected to your creator?

The story also tells us that Adam was not connected to God upon initial creation--God made the connection breathing His spirit into the material creation.

So if Adam was not initially connected upon creation, why should you be? According to the story, Adam broke the connection and therefore it does not exist in any of Adam's descendents.

But that only puts you at the same starting position as Adam's.

Why is that a stumbling block? God is waiting to breath His spirit into you as He did with Adam. As I said before, you're claimiing to be upset that God made the system "opt in" instead of "opt out."

 

[bling]

If what you say is true, and I inherited nothing from the sin of Adam/Eve how can the following verse be true:

Romans 5:12 NLT:
When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.

Thank you for addressing one of my points, but I would like your answer to my other questions so we can most forward.

Addressing your comment:

The main point in the verses is “all have sinned” and that is everyone’s problem and not a problem inherited from Adam and Eve.
As far as death goes: Is death bad in and of itself?
Death is the way bad people quit doing bad stuff and the way safed people get to go home.
Death has purpose in that it helps some nonbelievers to fulfill their earthly purpose without putting it off.

 

[alexiscurious]

Why would you necessarily expect to be connected to your creator?

Because I was apparently made in his image?

The story also tells us that Adam was not connected to God upon initial creation--God made the connection breathing His spirit into the material creation.

So if Adam was not initially connected upon creation, why should you be? According to the story, Adam broke the connection and therefore it does not exist in any of Adam's descendents.

He started with a clean slate and did not have to work toward a relationship with God, it was given to him unconditionally (whether he chose to keep it or not). You and I however were not given the same opportunity he was. We were forced to rebel (not given the initial choice like Adam was). Because I was in the loins of Adam it was decided that I should be a part of the rebellion as well. Where is my say in the matter? Why am I being held accountable for his decision? Where is the fairness in that?

But that only puts you at the same starting position as Adam's.

Actually, it doesn't.

Why is that a stumbling block? God is waiting to breath His spirit into you as He did with Adam. As I said before, you're claiming to be upset that God made the system "opt in" instead of "opt out."

The only thing I'm upset about is why God forced me to be a part of this rebellion.

 

[RDKirk]

Because I was apparently made in his image?



He started with a clean slate and did not have to work toward a relationship with God, it was given to him unconditionally (whether he chose to keep it or not). You and I however were not given the same opportunity he was. We were forced to rebel (not given the initial choice like Adam was). Because I was in the loins of Adam it was decided that I should be a part of the rebellion as well. Where is my say in the matter? Why am I being held accountable for his decision? Where is the fairness in that?




Actually, it doesn't.



The only thing I'm upset about is why God forced me to be a part of this rebellion.

Let me ask you this: Do you feel a need right now to be connected to God?

 

[alexiscurious]

It is not possible for a creature with free will to always choose to do what is right.

Then how do we have free will at all? That means there is a limit set on how many of my decisions can be "right" decisions.

Free will requires "original sin".

Then how did Adam/Eve have the free will to choose the apple?

God could have made robots who didn't sin, or creatures capable of love who do sin.

"who do sin" or "who could sin" ?

There's a difference.

Love is not possible without free will.

That's the only thing you've said so far that actually seems right.

 

[alexiscurious]

Let me ask you this: Do you feel a need right now to be connected to God?

The only thing I feel a need to do at this very moment is avoid eternal torment (if it even exists) and get my driver's license.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Then how do we have free will at all? That means there is a limit set on how many of my decisions can be "right" decisions.



Then how did Adam/Eve have the free will to choose the apple?



"who do sin" or "who could sin" ?

There's a difference.



That's the only thing you've said so far that actually seems right.

Free will means we can choose whether to do right or wrong. Adam and Eve had free will.

Can you describe a system where a creature with free will always chooses correctly? Explain how that would work and who would insure that the choices made are the correct choices.

 

[RDKirk]

The only thing I feel a need to do at this very moment is avoid eternal torment (if it even exists) and get my driver's license.

Let's not worry about eternal torment, let's think about this moment.

Do you feel that getting your driver's license would fulfill your psycho-emotional needs? You'd be satisfied then? Or do you feel like there ought to be some purpose beyond that?

 

[rstrats]

catholichomeschooler,

re: "Free will means we can choose whether to do right or wrong. Adam and Eve had free will.


But before they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil how could they have known what was right or wrong?

 

[catholichomeschooler]

catholichomeschooler,

re: "Free will means we can choose whether to do right or wrong. Adam and Eve had free will.


But before they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil how could they have known what was right or wrong?

They probably didn't in all cases. That didn't limit their choices.

They did have some specific instructions from God, though.

 

[Albion]

catholichomeschooler,

re: "Free will means we can choose whether to do right or wrong. Adam and Eve had free will.


But before they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil how could they have known what was right or wrong?

That was my thought, too, but then again, what's to be gained by bothering to point it out to him?

 

[Angelquill]

You get to start a whole brand new friendship with God.
How exciting is that??

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Hello Christian Forums,

The question on my mind has been bothering me for a while now. I would appreciate as many replies and thoughts on this as possible.

MY QUESTION:
How was I born into this crooked and corrupt life apart from my creator? Whenever I ask myself this question I am directed to Romans 5:12. This verse takes me to the story of the first two humans in existence. I realize their stupidity, but why should their decision affect me in any way? Was I consulted before they picked a fruit off a tree? Was I secretly involved in their defiance and disobedience? How in the world am I supposed to accept the punishment for a decision that was not mine to make? How did you and I get tangled up in this mess to begin with?

From what I understand, God originally planned humanity to be perfect and to live with him in harmony forever. How was the life God destined for me and you altered because of a careless decision someone else made? Romans 3:23 says because one man sinned we all fall short of the glory of God. When Satan/Luficer/The Devil sinned did all angels fall short of the glory of God as well? That isn't the case. So why is it humans are the only part of creation that this weird concept seems to apply to? Why did other angels not have to share punishment for what Satan did? But yet, I am supposed to accept the punishment for what Adam/Eve did? How does this make any sense?

So why is it I'm sitting here now, in this incomplete state, where I have to reconcile with my creator before the end of my life or else I will be in eternal damnation? Why couldn't I live the blissful and worry-free life God intended for me to have?

Thanks,
Alex

Your answer and many others are found here : Answers for Atheists and Agnostics

 

[Receiver]

...why should their decision affect me in any way?

They were duped by the suggestion that God will withhold the best:

"God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:5)

To make the same mistake of ignoring God's offer of life would be really dumb!

Was I consulted before they picked a fruit off a tree? Was I secretly involved in their defiance and disobedience? How in the world am I supposed to accept the punishment for a decision that was not mine to make? How did you and I get tangled up in this mess to begin with?

Tangled? Your thinking seems tangled!
Why not just do as others have done and learn from Adam & Eve, reject independence from God, choose his Life, choose to let Him teach and show you!

If you try and "cleverly" talk yourself out of it, all those that do will be witnesses against you!

From what I understand, God originally planned humanity to be perfect and to live with him in harmony forever. How was the life God destined for me and you altered because of a careless decision someone else made?

It's right there, in Christ, all you need to do is choose it .
In practice that means repent, be baptised and receive His Spirit, just like all the disciples did (and do) - Acts 2:4, 33, 39.

Romans 3:23 says because one man sinned we all fall short of the glory of God. When Satan/Luficer/The Devil sinned did all angels fall short of the glory of God as well? That isn't the case.

It's talking about mankind. All are born "in the flesh", all have the opportunity to be "born again".

So why is it humans are the only part of creation that this weird concept seems to apply to? Why did other angels not have to share punishment for what Satan did? But yet, I am supposed to accept the punishment for what Adam/Eve did? How does this make any sense?

No, God says you only take punishment for your own sins, if you don't repent, get baptised and receive the Spirit, then walk therein.

So why is it I'm sitting here now, in this incomplete state, where I have to reconcile with my creator before the end of my life or else I will be in eternal damnation? Why couldn't I live the blissful and worry-free life God intended for me to have?

You can, if you do as he says.

 

[alexiscurious]

Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to be obedient to all God’s rules forever (that is the garden before sin situation) or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your humbly accepting God’s charity (that is where you are today)?

Why wouldn't anyone want to be obedient to someone who pleases them in every way possible? Some claim if I was in Adam's position I would have done the same thing, therefore, I deserve to be where I am right now. How would anyone ever be able to know that? Saying for sure that I would choose wrong is in fact saying I have no free will. That means there is a limit set on how many of my decisions can be "right" decisions.

 

[alexiscurious]

They were duped by the suggestion that God will withhold the best:

"God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:5)

To make the same mistake of ignoring God's offer of life would be really dumb!



Tangled? Your thinking seems tangled!
Why not just do as others have done and learn from Adam & Eve, reject independence from God, choose his Life, choose to let Him teach and show you!

If you try and "cleverly" talk yourself out of it, all those that do will be witnesses against you!



It's right there, in Christ, all you need to do is choose it .
In practice that means repent, be baptised and receive His Spirit, just like all the disciples did (and do) - Acts 2:4, 33, 39.



It's talking about mankind. All are born "in the flesh", all have the opportunity to be "born again".



No, God says you only take punishment for your own sins, if you don't repent, get baptised and receive the Spirit, then walk therein.


You can, if you do as he says.

You said I am cleverly talking my way out of it but everything you've just said really provides absolutely no answer to the questions asked.

 

[bling]

Why wouldn't anyone want to be obedient to someone who pleases them in every way possible? Some claim if I was in Adam's position I would have done the same thing, therefore, I deserve to be where I am right now. How would anyone ever be able to know that? Saying for sure that I would choose wrong is in fact saying I have no free will. That means there is a limit set on how many of my decisions can be "right" decisions.

No, it is not saying you do not have free will. You may not have within you the power to just stop breathing, yet you can stop for a minute, so just because all mature adults will sin does not mean they cannot keep from a particular sin at a particular time.

Adam and Eve were described as being “very good” by God’s standard, but that is not the same as saying: “they are perfect”, like Christ was/is perfect. Adam and Eve were the very best created being, so if they sin we all would sin since they were made better than us.

We do not have to talk about our lasting in the Garden, since we can all examine the situation and conclude it is much easier for us today in our situation to fulfill our earthly objective than it would be for us to fulfill our objective in a Garden situation without first sinning.

Sin is not the problem and has a very easy solution to the “problem” it can cause (unforgiven sin can be a huge problem).

 

[Josephus]

Hello Christian Forums,

The question on my mind has been bothering me for a while now. I would appreciate as many replies and thoughts on this as possible.

MY QUESTION:
How was I born into this crooked and corrupt life apart from my creator? Whenever I ask myself this question I am directed to Romans 5:12. This verse takes me to the story of the first two humans in existence. I realize their stupidity, but why should their decision affect me in any way? Was I consulted before they picked a fruit off a tree? Was I secretly involved in their defiance and disobedience? How in the world am I supposed to accept the punishment for a decision that was not mine to make? How did you and I get tangled up in this mess to begin with?

From what I understand, God originally planned humanity to be perfect and to live with him in harmony forever. How was the life God destined for me and you altered because of a careless decision someone else made? Romans 3:23 says because one man sinned we all fall short of the glory of God. When Satan/Luficer/The Devil sinned did all angels fall short of the glory of God as well? That isn't the case. So why is it humans are the only part of creation that this weird concept seems to apply to? Why did other angels not have to share punishment for what Satan did? But yet, I am supposed to accept the punishment for what Adam/Eve did? How does this make any sense?

So why is it I'm sitting here now, in this incomplete state, where I have to reconcile with my creator before the end of my life or else I will be in eternal damnation? Why couldn't I live the blissful and worry-free life God intended for me to have?

Thanks,
Alex

Just as the writer of Hebrews points out that Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek because Levi was in the loins of Abraham, so too this Hebraic concept can be applied in the fall of all mankind through Adam. When G-d created Adam, he created all mankind within him. Literally within his loins. As a result, when Adam sinned, we all sinned. To a point, our physicality was there. This is not true of angels who were created separate from one another and do not multiply from another angel.

A person might argue they would have decided differently than Adam did, but this is not so according to a Jewish understanding of the Hebrew scriptures. Adam was in a perfect state but still chose what he did. Can we have done any better? Scripturaly speaking we were there in Adam. All mankind was. Just like Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek, so too all mankind choose to eat from the forbidden tree through Adam. Because we were physically there, in his loins, we were diminished from our original state of perfection when Adam was so diminished. We also therefore received the same physical concequence of death and the need for a perfect second Adam redeemer's merit to accord to us the level of righteousness lost which is required for a return to our place in the World to Come - Eden renewed. Our responsibility to re-attain this perfection is all fair no matter in what circumstance one finds themselves. The same level of challenge Adam faced in his perfection to obey one prohibition is the same level we face in our imperfection to obey multiple prohibitions and commands. This is the basis for "all have sinned" for we did sin through Adam which is made evident in our own lives.

 

[alexiscurious]

No, it is not saying you do not have free will. You may not have within you the power to just stop breathing, yet you can stop for a minute, so just because all mature adults will sin does not mean they cannot keep from a particular sin at a particular time.

Adam and Eve were described as being “very good” by God’s standard, but that is not the same as saying: “they are perfect”, like Christ was/is perfect. Adam and Eve were the very best created being, so if they sin we all would sin since they were made better than us.

We do not have to talk about our lasting in the Garden, since we can all examine the situation and conclude it is much easier for us today in our situation to fulfill our earthly objective than it would be for us to fulfill our objective in a Garden situation without first sinning.

Sin is not the problem and has a very easy solution to the “problem” it can cause (unforgiven sin can be a huge problem).

The person below you seems to disagree and says that Adam and Eve were indeed in a perfect state.

So if all mature adults will sin like you said, what prevents us from not being able to sin in heaven? Adam and Eve were with God and they still sinned, so even if we are with God in heaven, what will prevent us from doing it all over again?

 

[Ellwood3]

The only thing I feel a need to do at this very moment is avoid eternal torment (if it even exists) and get my driver's license.

Hello alexiscurious,

I just saw someone named "Chief Waterbuffalo," which immediately made me think of The Waterbuffalo Song:

VeggieTales: The Water Buffalo Song - Silly Song - YouTube

Many people are not aware Christian culture includes a singing cucumber named "Larry" or a talking asparagus pointing out truths.

Being a follower of Jesus Christ involves a lot most people never think about.

Imagine you avoid hell. You are now in eternity with Christ, who saved you. He died on the cross for you alone. In fact, if you were the only person who ever sinned Jesus would have bled and died for you alone (that's in the Abrahamic covenant, implied by the culture).

You will bow to Christ. You will see Him. You will understand a lot that doesn't make much sense right now.

What will you do? That's a rhetorical question, for you to think about, and you don't need to answer here.

When Jesus sees you, will He tell you, "Well done, good and faithful servant" ?

Will you see what you worked for burnt because it has no eternal value?

And will you have lost your opportunity here on earth to follow the God who gave up everything for you?

There is much you don't see about following Christ. What it means to do the works He has planned for you, marry the person He created with you in mind (or be single if that is His better design). You will miss your best life.

And you will miss your reward. Those who are not brought before the Great White Throne for judgement, but instead who are His will each be rewarded. God is no one's debtor.

And what if your time on through eternity, with at least some of your friends and loved ones, is with the knowledge you never trusted Him on earth enough to be His devoted follower before you entered His presence?

Those who do not follow Jesus in this lifetime, miss having their best lives.

So there's more to this than avoiding one destination in the Lake of Fire (where all the rebel angels who are now demons, led by satan, the Adversary, will go). Much more than that is at stake, for you, and those you will impact in your lifetime, however long that is.


MercyMe - I Can Only Imagine - YouTube


And for that reason, I like your questions. You are considering some challenging theological ideas, not just accepting what someone tells you, out of fear. Keep on seeking.

If you do this or not is not my business, but I will tell anyone seeking to begin to pray. This is one way to begin:

Jesus, if You are real, help me to learn about You, trust and follow You for my whole lifetime. I want to someday hear "Well done, good and faithful servant." I want the pleasure of Your company here on earth, I want to walk the best possible road to the best possible destination. I want to avoid the Lake of Fire, but I want so much more. I want to love You now before I see You the way that You deserve. So if You are there, give me ears to hear and eyes to find You in the midst of my questions, and help me fulfill Your best will for my life.

If you are seeking a relationship with someone, it helps to start talking.

Not ending up in the place made for devil and all the rebellious angels who followed him, is good.

Loving the One who makes it all possible is better.