Question for watchman and warners.

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Please explain the right - perfect way to stand against false teachings without those involved in the false teachings taking it personal. Because scripture CLEARLY says we should stand against it. It would seem you could just give clear scripture but as you know from the past, offense is taken in that as well. O thats right develop a relationship then tell them their doctrine is false according to scripture my guess is they will still be upset. actually thats been proven here as well.

Hey Rod, i think you missed my point. The point is not whether they take it personal or not. Of course they will. Everyone always takes an attack on their ideas personally. The point is .... hmmm, not sure how to put this. Remember when Jesus came to John to be baptized and John says like "what? YOU should be baptizing ME!" but Jesus says to him, "let it be this way to fulfill all righteousness" -- ? Well it's kind of like that. There exists the "offense of the cross" without a doubt, which we cannot do anything about, it will be there. But there exists also the offense of human flesh which does NOT need to be there and gets in the way and exacerbates and weighs down the offense of the cross with needless and unnecessary baggage -- and i guess it's the latter i'm talking about avoiding here.

In other words, if a row is hard enough to hoe as it stands, one does not make it harder on oneself by doing so with a toothpick.

 

[Elijah2]

Elijah glad to see you back can i now take a break LOL

NO!

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Show scripture that supports what you just said. i will be waiting

Keep waiting then, if your own mind cannot honestly grasp the vast difference between yourself and Moses.

Moriah asked you first to show your equivalence to Moses. You show Moriah yours and THEN she will show you hers.

 

[Elijah2]

Sometimes I've heard "watchmen" referred to as "perceivers"?

Be blessed.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

This is a wonderful post!
I believe that a LOT of people are very blind to this simple fact. Attacks from within the body, it's almost as if now a days, anything that is unique, and claimed to be "of God" or "of the Spirit" are auto-immune from being put in this category, and to me that is a very very dangerous attitude. Yet, I find typical "watchmen" as they are self call themselves(including myself at one point) are yes indeed wanting so badly to "have purpose" within the Body of Christ, that sometimes rational thoughts are subjected to personal prejudice and opinion on certain things.
That being said....I believe there are true discerners of things Holy and unholy.
I pray that we should not be so blatantly against everyone in this claim as to truely miss what is discerned at true evil.

peace and God Bless.


Peace and God Bless.

Another thing we should not overlook: sometimes false doctrine and error is just that: ERROR. Human beings, being NOT perfect, make mistakes in every field, why not in theology too? Human beings misinterpret scripture or don't have a complete knowledge of the Word. Human minds misunderstand God's truth and human flesh confuses things of God with its own biases and human beings well heckola just plain makesy mistakings alla times!!!

In other words sometimes nothing sinister exists behind it -- no motive to deceive or mislead -- just plain human confusion and error. If we approach those folks with the attitude that we have come to "expose" them for being "wolves" and "tares", we totally and unnecessarily alienate brothers and sisters in Christ whose ONLY "crime" would have been not having as high a "spiritual IQ" as we fancy ourselves to have.

Food for thought ...

 

[ImmersionX]

Ok...here's my newbie 2 cents again:

Watchmen, swatchmen...! We either, according to scripture(and only some have the true gift) discern evil(in intent or in the obvious) or we don't and fall for all sorts of rubbish.
That's all.

Peace.
(I'm so glad I got highspeed net at home now....wow it's late!!!!!!!)

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Sometimes I've heard "watchmen" referred to as "perceivers"?

And sometimes ... DECEIVERS !!!

(sorry, just could not resist the rhyme -- blame it on my inner hebephrenic!)

 

[ImmersionX]

Another thing we should not overlook: sometimes false doctrine and error is just that: ERROR. Human beings, being NOT perfect, make mistakes in every field, why not in theology too? Human beings misinterpret scripture or don't have a complete knowledge of the Word. Human minds misunderstand God's truth and human flesh confuses things of God with its own biases and human beings well heckola just plain makesy mistakings alla times!!!

In other words sometimes nothing sinister exists behind it -- no motive to deceive or mislead -- just plain human confusion and error. If we approach those folks with the attitude that we have come to "expose" them for being "wolves" and "tares", we totally and unnecessarily alienate brothers and sisters in Christ whose ONLY "crime" would have been not having as high a "spiritual IQ" as we fancy ourselves to have.

Food for thought ...

Ok I'm upping it to 4 cents now(see previous post of mine.)
So basically I am gathering that this is a "no win" situation for those claiming to be "watchmen" or even those with the biblical gift of discernment?
Yep that's what I'm gathering now.
Human influence can obviously corrupt any of the gifts. I believe that over half(more than actually) of people speaking in tongues...have it wrong...they fake it, are conditioned to do it, etc....so with this idea of "watchmen" it's the same thing....who to trust, who to believe as true?
We can't it seems
I go with my gut.

Peace and God Bless.

 

[Elijah2]

And sometimes ... DECEIVERS !!!

(sorry, just could not resist the rhyme -- blame it on my inner hebephrenic!)

Yair, and sometimes...RECEIVERS:o

 

[Simon_Templar]

hmm, I don't know if I'm considered to be one of these self appointed watchmen around here or not but I have taken issue with some of the stuff mentioned from time to time.

There is a general principle that ideas should not be judged based necessarily on who said them, but rather on their own merit, or their own veracity (or lack there of). In other words, the first answer to the question "who are you to say this?" is it doesn't really matter who I am, it only matters if what I said is true or not.

File that under "everyone can be wrong, and even a blind rat can find cheese once in a while". (or another personal favorite is, even a broken clock is right twice a day).

Secondly, everyone has to judge for themselves what is true and what isn't. It is every Christian's job and duty to do so. I think one of my primary giftings is probably teaching and so I have a desire to help people learn things, including good doctrine and doctrinal discernment. Further, it offends my sense of justice, and also my sense of rightness, when I see bad teachings, or false teachings being exalted and praised as good, so that is mildly irritating.

Ultimately, though, my job is simply to speak the truth to the best of my ability, and God's instruction to me, what anyone does with it is up to them.

Lastly, though it may sound like a cop out, it does not feel right to me to talk about "i do this, and I do that to minister for the Lord" etc. It feels like selling myself, and fishing for praise etc.

However, despite all that, to not be evasive...

Probably most of my 'ministry' opportunities have occured with friends of mine, and coworkers. I seem to have a nack for getting into 'religious' discussions and as a result of had a fair number of opportunities to witness and to generally to discuss faith with a fair number of people on a personal level. Over the years that has born various levels of fruit with different people.

On a more formal level, I currently minister on a weekly basis in a local nursing home and retirement community. In addition to weekly services, and some teaching, I lead a book study/discussion group there which has been on the topic of knowing God for some time. (following the book of the same title by JI Packer).

Somewhat ironically, I've wanted to work with young people, particularly young men for a while, but God has me working in a retirement home instead. Its an area that is often forgotten and often viewed as dead end waste of time from a ministry perspective because there is no money, no real "growth" potential, and no influence of fame involved. It has, however, been very good for me in developing a servant's heart which I really didn't have before. I believe, and find it to be true, that God has placed me there for now, as much to work in me, as to use me to work in them.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Human influence can obviously corrupt any of the gifts. I believe that over half (more than actually) of people speaking in tongues...have it wrong...they fake it, are conditioned to do it, etc....so with this idea of "watchmen" it's the same thing....who to trust, who to believe as true?
We can't it seems
I go with my gut.

Agree 100% with your perception of the proliferation of the false.
Moriah goes with God's Love. Bottom line on all of it, including how to deal with the false.

p.s. it bes not a contest silly!

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Yair, and sometimes...RECEIVERS:o

Mmmhm!

 

[Deba]

Regarding warning and relationships:

-Stephen had no relationship with the Pharisees or Saul, yet he pointed out the error of their ways.

-Philip had no relationship with the Ethopian eunich, yet he pointedly explained the need for repentance and baptism to him.

-And John, whom Jesus called the greatest of all prophets, had no relationship with Herod, until he was imprisoned for warning Herod.

Three warners sent - two were killed for doing what God desired of them. Things haven't changed much, in our society we don't kill the messanger we just politely denigrate.

 

[Father Rick]

The entire Watchmen thing is really a convoluted, man made distortion of the historic definition of the gift of spiritual discernment. The gift of discernment is the special ability that God gives to certain members of the body of Christ to distinguish between truth and error, and to know with assurance whether certain behavior purported to be of God is in reality divine, human, or satanic.

It is taken to extreme's on BOTH sides of this coin.

Welp that's my 2 cents in this circular arguement.

Peace and God Bless.

Ok...here's my newbie 2 cents again:

Watchmen, swatchmen...! We either, according to scripture(and only some have the true gift) discern evil(in intent or in the obvious) or we don't and fall for all sorts of rubbish.
That's all.

Peace.
(I'm so glad I got highspeed net at home now....wow it's late!!!!!!!)

Ok... here's one issue that has to be addressed, since what you've said here has (unfortunately) become widely taught/believed yet is not biblical in basis.

There is NO such thing as the "gift of discernment" in scripture. Rather, there is the "gift of discerning of spirits".

Yes, scripture is clear that all Christians are to exercise "discernment"-- however, the one time that word is used in the NT (and then only in some translations) is in Philippians 1:9... where it is speaking NOT of spiritual understanding, but of using your brain to think through issues.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:8 For God is my witness, how I long for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:10 so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ; [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:11 having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God. [/FONT]

I posted it here with the link to the interlinear, so that you can see for yourself the meaning of the word "discernment", which is:

1. perception, not only by the senses but by the intellect
2. cognition, discernment
   1. of moral discernment in ethical matters

In the OT, there are actually a couple of different words used that are translated as "discernment"... with the meaning/intent of the word there also being "understanding" (not some form of spiritual perception). One of these words is used in Isaiah 11, which is considered by the historical churches as a listing of spiritual gifts for all believers (as part of the impartation of the Spirit to all believers) that serve for the strengthening of the individual believer (in other words, NOT ministry gifts for other parts of the Body). It is usually, however, translated as "understanding"

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: [/FONT]

Again, even the KJV translates it as "understanding" not as "discernment"... the actual word being "biynah", which is defined as:

understanding, discernment

1. act
2. faculty
3. object
4. personified

In its 38 uses in the OT, that word was not translated "discernment" once by the KJV... and only 3 times by the NAS. The emphasis of the word is simply "understanding" or "wisdom"... and has never implied any form of supernatural knowledge of intent, motive, or origin of any particular person or doctrine.



The "gift of discerning of spirits" on the other hand uses a different word entirely... "diakrisis"... which means "a distinguishing"

1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles *; to another prophecy *; to another discerning of spirits *; to another divers kinds of tongues *; to another the interpretation of tongues:

It is the recognizing the difference between different items. Here, it is not JUST "distinguishing" but "distinguishing between different types of spirits" (not people; not doctrines; not "truth or error").

When the gift of discerning of spirits is in operation, it supernaturally allows one to know what type of spirit one is dealing with (aka. a demonic spirit, an angel, etc.) This falls into the category of prophetic revelation... and as such is subject to the same guidelines as all other prophetic revelation, namely judgement by the rest of the Body of Christ as to it's validity or lack thereof.

 

[BenAdam]

You don't need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing.

If one of those prophets issued a warning many would salivate over it.

 

[dkbwarrior]

You don't need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing.

If one of y'alls pet prophets issued a warning many would salivate over it.

Whats a pet prophet? Never heard that before.

Peace...

 

[JimB]

This is a serious question, I hear, we all hear over and over the warnings against:

Todd Bently
Benny Hinn
Kenneth Copeland.....Actually the whole line of WOF
Well I can't think of any others because I don't take the warnings seriously.

Okay here is the deal.

If you are a outspoken critic of any minister and you consider it your duty or calling to warn us here about them.......if you go so far as to consider yourself a God appointed watchman..........I want to know.

What do YOU do to minister to others. How many people have you shared the gospel with? How many miracles have you been used of God to perform? Healings?

I want to know what YOU have done for God, then I can decide (we all can decide) if your warnings should be given a second glance.

CA, aren’t you doing the same thing with this tread: setting yourself us as a watchmen to warn us of those you think are watchmen-wartners; those who view their responsibility to the body of Christ differently than you do?

FYI: Yes, I consider myself a God-appointed watchman/warner. In fact, all of us are appointed to do that (see scriptures below). The other alternative is to be gullible and open to deception by frauds and those who think godliness is a means of gain and whose only truly effective ministry to the flock of God is fleecing them—you know, to be a blind guide of the blind. So, I do not take your watchman warning seriously, either. Anyhow, what kind of shepherd would I be if I did not warn the flock of a wolf in their midst?

I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you.(1 Corinthians 4:14)
​

Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. (Colossians 1:28)

Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. (1 Thessalonians 5:14)

Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.(Romans 16.17)

The thief’s purpose is to steal and kill and destroy . . . A hired hand will run when he sees a wolf coming. He will abandon the sheep because they don’t belong to him and he isn’t their shepherd. And so the wolf attacks them and scatters the flock. The hired hand runs away because he’s working only for the money and doesn’t really care about the sheep. (John 10.10-13)

​

How many times did Paul warn fellow Christians about unruly/fraudulent ministers (like Diotrephes, Alexander, Hymeneaus, et.al.), even calling some of them by name, and telling us to mark (not ignore) those who cause division among us?

~Jim

If you have confidence in a seed you will simply plant it and let it grow.​

 

[Deba]

Whats a pet prophet? Never heard that before.

Peace...

Pet prophets followed the pet rock fad.
Some of us,fortunetely have not fallen for either.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The entire Watchmen thing is really a convoluted, man made distortion of the historic definition of the gift of spiritual discernment. The gift of discernment is the special ability that God gives to certain members of the body of Christ to distinguish between truth and error, and to know with assurance whether certain behavior purported to be of God is in reality divine, human, or satanic.

It is taken to extreme's on BOTH sides of this coin.

Welp that's my 2 cents in this circular arguement.

Peace and God Bless.

The spiritual "gift of discernment" is a myth.
No such animal anywhere is Scripture.
No such "gift."
No such "ministry."

People who claim to have this mythical "gift of discernment" are simply doing an end around those gifts and ministry gifts that God HAS set in the body: "apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, etc..."
A person claiming to have this alleged "gift of discernment" is the closest thing to a false prophet that exists. They have an invented "gift" and an invented "ministry" which they have exalted themselves into. Yet there is no scriptural support for any such thing. Also, those who exercise this mythical "gift" have absolutely no accountability to anyone and in fact they fly this as a banner. They answer to no-one. The are bounty hunters in the church. Gun slingers who are above the law. If you question them, they will "discern" you into satan's camp.

What if they are wrong? Does that make them "false discerners?" What is the difference between them and false prophets? Yet they answer to no such evaluations or examination.

There are just control freaks who instead of accepting the REAL spiritual gifts with which God has enabled them, they invent this new thing out of whole cloth, set up a shingle, and presume to Lord it over the rest of us with the FALSE accreditation and authority of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has given NOBODY such power or gifting. Every believer is accountable to others, and nobody with this invented "gift" has no right to judge you or your faith! They are simply usurpers of God's power and authority in the Church.

Fact is, they have no more power, authority, or calling than a post fly. Take everything they say with a pound of salt.

If I were the pastor of a church, and one of these "discerners" came up and presumed to "warn" me about something I was doing or teaching... I would "warn" him right out the door.

If you presume yourself one of these "discerners," then repent, find out what your real giftings are, and subject yourself to the real church ministries like the rest of us.

Was that clear enough?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Dup