Question about praying to Mary

[Maria Billingsley]

The link you provided proves your ignorance or proves you are are the type of person who deliberately provids false information. Take your pick.

Wow. I guess you didn't bother reading it.
This is my last post.
Be blessed.

 

[The Liturgist]

Well then so much for the suggestions that she can hear all the prayers said to her all over the world 24/7.

Omnipotence and omnipresence are not required in order to be able to do that. It is merely a charism, like prophecy.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Does not the bible teach that at death we are not conscious?

No, the "bible" does not teach that. Some have interpreted some passages to mean that. Seventh Day Adventists, for example, teach that death is unconscious and analogous to sleep. Jehovah's witnesses also teaching something similar. But Catholics, Orthodox, and all the ancient churches reject every form of soul sleep and annihilationism.

 

[YeshuaFollower]

No, the "bible" does not teach that. Some have interpreted some passages to mean that. Seventh Day Adventists, for example, teach that death is unconscious and analogous to sleep. Jehovah's witnesses also teaching something similar. But Catholics, Orthodox, and all the ancient churches reject every form of soul sleep and annihilationism.

I saw these verses yesterday, i will have to find them for you

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I saw these verses yesterday, i will have to find them for you

Soul sleep is the belief that after death, the soul goes into a state of unconsciousness until the resurrection. This belief contradicts the teachings of many Christians, including those from the Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox traditions, who believe in the continued conscious existence of the soul after death.

Scripture references that refute the concept of soul sleep include:

• Ecclesiastes 12:7, which states that the dust returns to the earth as it was, but the spirit returns to God who gave it.
• Revelation 6:9-10, which describes the souls of the martyrs under the altar crying out for justice.
• Luke 23:43, in which Jesus speaks to the thief on the cross, promising him that they will be together in paradise that very day.

Deuterocanonical references that support the continued existence of the soul after death include:

• Wisdom 3:1-3, which speaks of the souls of the righteous being in the hands of God, where there is no torment or suffering.
• Tobit 4:19, which states that the souls of the righteous are at peace.
• 2 Maccabees 12:44-45, which describes the offering of prayers and sacrifices for the dead, implying their continued existence after death.

These scriptural references and deuterocanonical passages suggest that the soul does not sleep after death, but rather continues to exist in some form in the presence of God.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:
Well then so much for the suggestions that she can hear all the prayers said to her all over the world 24/7.

Omnipotence and omnipresence are not required in order to be able to do that.

that answer sounds a bit self-conflicted. Is it wishful thinking or does some Bible text point that out?

It is merely a charism, like prophecy.

Prophecy does not work like that. In fact there is nothing in the Bible that claims to give that ability to any person alive or dead.

 

[BobRyan]

Soul sleep is the belief that after death, the soul goes into a state of unconsciousness until the resurrection. This belief contradicts the teachings of many Christians

I am thinking of one specific Christian... the Apostle Paul -

1 Thess 4:
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

And of course - the Apostle John

John 11:
11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

Does not the bible teach that at death we are not conscious? that our bodies return to dust and our souls return to to the lord GOD to await resurrection? I know that some were taken by GOD but they were exceptions, nowhere in scripture was Mary, undoubtedly a righteous woman in the eyes of GOD taken to heaven. The dead cannot hear or feel or see as they await resurrection.

Peace,

JFF

There are in fact a few.

 

[concretecamper]

Wow. I guess you didn't bother reading it.
This is my last post.
Be blessed.

In other words, you were caught being disingenuous, bow out, PLEASE

 

[JSRG]

No it is beatification by the Pope. Maybe my wording wasn't quite right.
" The Father" is God.

Who can grant sainthood?
The person is canonised through a formal papal decree that the candidate is holy and in heaven with God. The Pope makes the declaration during a special mass in honour of the new saint. A formal request for an individual to be considered for sainthood is submitted to a special Vatican tribunal.

Ah, then the problem was with your wording. A better way would have been:

"the prayers are collected and presented to The Father through Mary and saints (people beatified by the Pope)."

That would be more accurate. A bit oversimplified, but the basic idea is right. However, being beatified isn't being declared a saint (that's being canonized), though normally one goes through beatification prior to canonization. Also, in the earlier days, declaration of saints was more localized and declared by the local bishop, and it was later that such declarations became more of a universal thing (that is, a declaration applies to everyone) in which the pope was always involved. At least in the Catholic Church--not sure the saint process for the Orthodox churches.

 

[concretecamper]

Maybe my wording wasn't quite right.

Your wording was false

 

[JSRG]

Wow. I guess you didn't bother reading it.
This is my last post.
Be blessed.

Well, they did read it, but were apparently taking issue with your admitted poor phrasing.

In other words, you were caught being disingenuous, bow out, PLEASE

If your issue was the "by the pope" remark--I don't think you clearly stated it--Maria Billingsley clarified (admittedly, not in a reply to you, but to me) that it was an issue of poor writing on their part.

If the issue was the "by the pope" then you didn't say that was what it was. If it was something else... then what was it, exactly? It looks to me like the whole argument started up because of poor communication on, to be honest, both of your parts.

 

[concretecamper]

Does not the bible teach that at death we are not conscious? that our bodies return to dust and our souls return to to the lord GOD to await resurrection? I know that some were taken by GOD but they were exceptions, nowhere in scripture was Mary, undoubtedly a righteous woman in the eyes of GOD taken to heaven. The dead cannot hear or feel or see as they await resurrection.

Peace,

JFF

Like 15:7 I say to you that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance.


Those in Heaven are aware with what goes on here on earth

 

[concretecamper]

If your issue was the "by the pope" remark--I don't think you clearly stated it--Maria Billingsley clarified (admittedly, not in a reply to you, but to me) that it was an issue of poor writing on their part.

To those of us who have seen this type of what you call "poor writing" (from the same characters) too many times, it is apparent that it was intentional.

 

[BillMcEnaney]

Certainly we all know that infinite God has no limitations.

ISb that because you can hear what everyone on planet Earth says in their prayers - 24/7 so why shouldn't Mary also have that ability?dO

Certainly we all know that infinite God has no limitations.

IS that because you can hear what everyone on planet Earth says in their prayers - 24/7 so why shouldn't Mary also have that ability?

Bob, please define "all-knowing" and tell us whether Jesus and tell us whether Jesus Christ is all-knowing. After you do that, I'll explain why I asked you to do those two things for us.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I am thinking of one specific Christian... the Apostle Paul -

Post #85 present some scriptures that contradict soul sleep of every kind.

 

[BobRyan]

Post #85 present some scriptures that contradict soul sleep of every kind.

Does it refute these scriptures?

1 Thess 4:
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

John 11:
11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

in fact does post #85 even quote these texts at all??? (after reading it I see that the answer is "no")

In Matt 22 to prove the Bible truth of the future resurrection of the dead Christ says "God is not the god of the dead". Is point is that the statement God makes to Moses at the burning bush about Abraham can only be true -- if there is a future resurrection.

His proof from scripture , His logic an reasoning are so sound that even His enemies have no logical answer other than His own solution which is that there most certainly has to be a future resurrection and so instead of admitting it they are "put to silence" as the text says.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, please define "all-knowing" and tell us whether Jesus and tell us whether Jesus Christ is all-knowing.

Is it your claim that Mary is just as all-knowing as God the Son???

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Does it refute these scriptures?

All scripture is inspired by God and God does not self-contradict. The ancient Churches have always reject every form of annihilationism and soul sleep and so do I. No more need be said.

Scripture references that refute the concept of soul sleep include:

• Ecclesiastes 12:7, which states that the dust returns to the earth as it was, but the spirit returns to God who gave it.
• Revelation 6:9-10, which describes the souls of the martyrs under the altar crying out for justice.
• Luke 23:43, in which Jesus speaks to the thief on the cross, promising him that they will be together in paradise that very day.
• Wisdom 3:1-3, which speaks of the souls of the righteous being in the hands of God, where there is no torment or suffering.
• Tobit 4:19, which states that the souls of the righteous are at peace.
• 2 Maccabees 12:44-45, which describes the offering of prayers and sacrifices for the dead, implying their continued existence after death.

 

[Valletta]

Does not the bible teach that at death we are not conscious? that our bodies return to dust and our souls return to to the lord GOD to await resurrection? I know that some were taken by GOD but they were exceptions, nowhere in scripture was Mary, undoubtedly a righteous woman in the eyes of GOD taken to heaven. The dead cannot hear or feel or see as they await resurrection.

Peace,

JFF

God has the power to let the saints in Heaven know our prayers.

 

[BobRyan]

Scripture references that refute the concept of soul sleep include:

• Ecclesiastes 12:7, which states that the dust returns to the earth as it was, but the spirit returns to God who gave it.
• Revelation 6:9-10, which describes the souls of the martyrs under the altar crying out for justice.
• Luke 23:43, in which Jesus speaks to the thief on the cross, promising him that they will be together in paradise that very day.

Rev 6:11 - souls under the altar are told to "continue to rest - a little while longer" -- of course symbolic with instructive imagery

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Eccl 12: 7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. (the body does not sleep at death - rather it is dust... dust does not sleep. It is the spirit returns to God, it is the only thing that remains to be in a dormant state, nothing else still exists in a state where it could be dormant)

And of course the main point in Eccl 12: 13 The conclusion, when everything has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. 14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.

Which is also what we see in Rev 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven with an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation, tribe, language, and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth, and sea and springs of waters.” ...12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Eccl 9:3 Afterward they go to the dead. 4 For whoever is joined to all the living, there is hope; for better a live dog, than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor do they have a reward any longer, for their memory is forgotten. 6 Indeed their love, their hate, and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

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Luke 23 in which we find this
42 And he (the repentant thief) was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!”

Jesus' response is in that context - and He says
43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Jesus' promise to that specific request - is that when He comes into His kingdom - the thief will then be with Him.

Note: Rev 2 and Rev 22 remind us that Paradise is where the Tree of Life and the Throne of God are.

John 20 reminds us that on resurrection Sunday - Jesus still had not been to the throne of God
17 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father