Question about praying to Mary

[Lost4words]

Just as it were at Cana, Mary intercedes for us to Her Son.

We were given over to her at the foot of the cross. She is our Holy Mother.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Rev 6:11 - souls under the altar are told to "continue to rest - a little while longer" -- of course symbolic with instructive imagery

The point is missed when you take verse 11 in isolation. Here is what the three verses say.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.​

Revelation 6:9-11

And how does a commentator interpret the verses?

Revelation 6:9​

After the opening of the fifth seal, the souls of the martyrs under the altar cried aloud for justice, saying, how long, &c. Out of zeal for God’s honour, and the good of the Church, they pray that the enemies of Christ, and of the Christian faith, may be humbled, and that all may acknowledge and fear the justice of God, by the punishment of his enemies, and the reward of his faithful servants. St. Jerome, by under the altar, understands Christ himself, under whom, as under their head, are all the martyrs. Some who doubted or held that the blessed were not admitted to see God, in heaven before the day of general judgment, have turned this expression, under the altar, or at least the expressions of some of the fathers upon these words, as if they were favourable to their error, which is sufficiently disproved, even by the words that follow, that white robes were given to each of them one, in which they are said to walk with him wherever he goeth. (Chap. 3:4 and Chap. 14:4) (Witham) ---

Under the altar. Christ, as man, is this altar, under which the souls of the martyrs live in heaven: as their bodies are here deposited under our altars. ---

Revenge our blood. They ask not this out of hatred to their enemies, but out of zeal for the glory of God, and a desire that the Lord would accelerate the general judgment, and the complete beatitude of all his elect. (Challoner) ---

These holy souls, who had been slain for the word of God, do not beg the Almighty to revenge their blood, through any hatred of their enemies, but through the great zeal with which they were animated, to see the justice of God manifested: that by this severity they might be moved to fear him, and be converted to him. Thus in the Scripture we often read of the prophets beseeching the Almighty to fill their enemies with confusion, to humble them, &c. (Perer; Bossuet; Du Pin, &c.) ---

And white robes. To console them, they each had given them a white robe, as a mark of their innocence, and as an assurance that on account of it they would in due time receive full measure of beatitude. They should rest yet a little while, most probably to the day of final retribution, when the number of those destined to be their brethren in bliss should be completed. Then they should all together receive full recompense, and their persecutors be covered with confusion. (St. Augustine, serm. xi. de sanctis; Gregory the great, lib. ii. Moral. cap. iv.​

 

[Erose]

They do not think they are dead, no, otherwise they wouldn't pray to them.

I don't pray to them because God is a jealous God & wants you to pray to him. He wouldn't give other people his powers because it is HIS glory & HIS alone. Amen!

So, you don't believe God has given human beings the ability to work miracles, heal people, raise the dead, etc., etc?

 

[YeshuaFollower]

God has the power to let the saints in Heaven know our prayers.

scriptures please?

 

[YeshuaFollower]

Like 15:7 I say to you that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance.


Those in Heaven are aware with what goes on here on earth

please note the: ""There shall be"" in the verse.

 

[Valletta]

please note the: ""There shall be"" in the verse.

Do you think sinners will be doing penance after the world ends, or are sinners doing penance now?

 

[concretecamper]

please note the: ""There shall be"" in the verse.

Sinners repent all the time, in the future too!

 

[YeshuaFollower]

All scripture is inspired by God and God does not self-contradict. The ancient Churches have always reject every form of annihilationism and soul sleep and so do I. No more need be said.

Scripture references that refute the concept of soul sleep include:

• Ecclesiastes 12:7, which states that the dust returns to the earth as it was, but the spirit returns to God who gave it.
• Revelation 6:9-10, which describes the souls of the martyrs under the altar crying out for justice.
• Luke 23:43, in which Jesus speaks to the thief on the cross, promising him that they will be together in paradise that very day.
• Wisdom 3:1-3, which speaks of the souls of the righteous being in the hands of God, where there is no torment or suffering.
• Tobit 4:19, which states that the souls of the righteous are at peace.
• 2 Maccabees 12:44-45, which describes the offering of prayers and sacrifices for the dead, implying their continued existence after death.

BobRyan in post # 100 has quoted the verses i had in mind,

Thank you Bob!

Blessings,

JFF

 

[YeshuaFollower]

Do you think sinners will be doing penance after the world ends, or are sinners doing penance now?

The concept of penance is vaguely familiar to me since I was raised catholic but honestly I am not certain, I will research.

Blessings,

Jff

 

[Valletta]

The concept of penance is vaguely familiar to me since I was raised catholic but honestly I am not certain, I will research.

Blessings,

Jff

Well, Lent is coming up, fasting is a one form of penance. Today penance is generally done in private as per Matthew 16:6

 

[YeshuaFollower]

Do you think sinners will be doing penance after the world ends, or are sinners doing penance now?

Penance ( roman catholic sacrement as a form of punishment to demonstrate repentance ) see the full verses below; (NKJV) isaiah 58; I think NOW is the best why wait when we can do this now, in black the panance people do, in red what the living GOD wants us to do. Different versions of the bible (NASB) use penance in these verses. I do not agree with corporeal punishment to prove repentance rather doing good works, obeying GOD's commandments and having unwavering faith.

Fasting that Pleases God​

1“Cry aloud, spare not;
Lift up your voice like a trumpet;
Tell My people their transgression,
And the house of Jacob their sins.
2Yet they seek Me daily,
And delight to know My ways,
As a nation that did righteousness,
And did not forsake the ordinance of their God.
They ask of Me the ordinances of justice;
They take delight in approaching God.
3‘Why have we fasted,’ they say, ‘and You have not seen?
Why have we afflicted our souls, and You take no notice?’

“In fact, in the day of your fast you find pleasure,
And https://biblehub.com/nkjv/isaiah/58.htm#footnotesexploit all your laborers.
4Indeed you fast for strife and debate,
And to strike with the fist of wickedness.
You will not fast as you do this day,
To make your voice heard on high.
5Is it a fast that I have chosen,
A day for a man to afflict his soul?
Is it to bow down his head like a bulrush,
And to spread out sackcloth and ashes?
Would you call this a fast,
And an acceptable day to the Lord?

6“Is this not the fast that I have chosen:
To loose the bonds of wickedness,
To undo the heavy burdens,
To let the oppressed go free,
And that you break every yoke?
7Is it not to share your bread with the hungry,
And that you bring to your house the poor who are cast out;
When you see the naked, that you cover him,
And not hide yourself from your own flesh?
8Then your light shall break forth like the morning,
Your healing shall spring forth speedily,
And your righteousness shall go before you;
The glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard.
9Then you shall call, and the Lord will answer;
You shall cry, and He will say, ‘Here I am.’

“If you take away the yoke from your midst,
The pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness,
10If you extend your soul to the hungry
And satisfy the afflicted soul,
Then your light shall dawn in the darkness,
And your darkness shall be as the noonday.
11The Lord will guide you continually,
And satisfy your soul in drought,
And strengthen your bones;
You shall be like a watered garden,
And like a spring of water, whose waters do not fail.
12Those from among you
Shall build the old waste places;
You shall raise up the foundations of many generations;
And you shall be called the Repairer of the Breach,
The Restorer of Streets to Dwell In.

13“If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,
14Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord;
And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth,
And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father.
The mouth of the Lord has spoken.”


Blessings,

JFF

 

[The Liturgist]

that answer sounds a bit self-conflicted. Is it wishful thinking or does some Bible text point that out?

Neither. It’s called “logical deduction.” The ability to hear the prayers of the world is just one ability, whereas the abilities of God are infinite.

 

[Erose]

No it is beatification by the Pope. Maybe my wording wasn't quite right.
" The Father" is God.

Who can grant sainthood?
The person is canonised through a formal papal decree that the candidate is holy and in heaven with God. The Pope makes the declaration during a special mass in honour of the new saint. A formal request for an individual to be considered for sainthood is submitted to a special Vatican tribunal.

Not "grant" but "declare". Words are important here. One is not a saint in heaven because of the pope's declaration. Rather the pope declares to us that this person is in fact in heaven and we may in good conscience pray to him/her for intercession; and model our lives after them.

 

[Erose]

Does not the bible teach that at death we are not conscious? that our bodies return to dust and our souls return to to the lord GOD to await resurrection? I know that some were taken by GOD but they were exceptions, nowhere in scripture was Mary, undoubtedly a righteous woman in the eyes of GOD taken to heaven. The dead cannot hear or feel or see as they await resurrection.

Peace,

JFF

It depends on your view of the last days. But in Revelations 20:4-6 it speaks of the first resurrection, which occurs during what is called the 1000 year reign of Christ. The Catholic Church teaches that we are currently within the 1000 year reign of Christ. Now with the first resurrection it speaks only of the souls, not the bodies of the Saints, particularly those martyred for Christ.

Now the Blessed Mother of our Lord died after the NT was written, except maybe the book of Revelations and that Chapter 12 is an allusion to her.

 

[Valletta]

Penance ( roman catholic sacrement as a form of punishment to demonstrate repentance ) see the full verses below; (NKJV) isaiah 58; I think NOW is the best why wait when we can do this now, in black the panance people do, in red what the living GOD wants us to do. Different versions of the bible (NASB) use penance in these verses. I do not agree with corporeal punishment to prove repentance rather doing good works, obeying GOD's commandments and having unwavering faith.

Fasting that Pleases God​

1“Cry aloud, spare not;
Lift up your voice like a trumpet;
Tell My people their transgression,
And the house of Jacob their sins.
2Yet they seek Me daily,
And delight to know My ways,
As a nation that did righteousness,
And did not forsake the ordinance of their God.
They ask of Me the ordinances of justice;
They take delight in approaching God.
3‘Why have we fasted,’ they say, ‘and You have not seen?
Why have we afflicted our souls, and You take no notice?’

“In fact, in the day of your fast you find pleasure,
And Isaiah 58 NKJVexploit all your laborers.
4Indeed you fast for strife and debate,
And to strike with the fist of wickedness.
You will not fast as you do this day,
To make your voice heard on high.
5Is it a fast that I have chosen,
A day for a man to afflict his soul?
Is it to bow down his head like a bulrush,
And to spread out sackcloth and ashes?
Would you call this a fast,
And an acceptable day to the Lord?

6“Is this not the fast that I have chosen:
To loose the bonds of wickedness,
To undo the heavy burdens,
To let the oppressed go free,
And that you break every yoke?
7Is it not to share your bread with the hungry,
And that you bring to your house the poor who are cast out;
When you see the naked, that you cover him,
And not hide yourself from your own flesh?
8Then your light shall break forth like the morning,
Your healing shall spring forth speedily,
And your righteousness shall go before you;
The glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard.
9Then you shall call, and the Lord will answer;
You shall cry, and He will say, ‘Here I am.’

“If you take away the yoke from your midst,
The pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness,
10If you extend your soul to the hungry
And satisfy the afflicted soul,
Then your light shall dawn in the darkness,
And your darkness shall be as the noonday.
11The Lord will guide you continually,
And satisfy your soul in drought,
And strengthen your bones;
You shall be like a watered garden,
And like a spring of water, whose waters do not fail.
12Those from among you
Shall build the old waste places;
You shall raise up the foundations of many generations;
And you shall be called the Repairer of the Breach,
The Restorer of Streets to Dwell In.

13“If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,
14Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord;
And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth,
And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father.
The mouth of the Lord has spoken.”


Blessings,

JFF

You did not answer the question. The question was "Do you think sinners will be doing penance after the world ends, or are sinners doing penance now?" But since you have forgotten, let me remind you there are three major categories of penance--fasting, praying, and giving alms. Our Lord gave us these examples to follow, you have free will to approve or disapprove. So let me rephrase, do sinners fast and pray and give alms after the world ends, or now?

 

[YeshuaFollower]

You did not answer the question. The question was "Do you think sinners will be doing penance after the world ends, or are sinners doing penance now?" But since you have forgotten, let me remind you there are three major categories of penance--fasting, praying, and giving alms. Our Lord gave us these examples to follow, you have free will to approve or disapprove. So let me rephrase, do sinners fast and pray and give alms after the world ends, or now?

Hello Valetta,

I am sorry you are angry with me, It transpires in your message.

Yes, I did answer, i wrote, NOW.

I agree with you, about fasting praying and alms.

I just disagree with the old rites some catholic priests and people had some time ago about flagellation, and other torture devices.

Blessings,

JFF

 

[YeshuaFollower]

It depends on your view of the last days. But in Revelations 20:4-6 it speaks of the first resurrection, which occurs during what is called the 1000 year reign of Christ. The Catholic Church teaches that we are currently within the 1000 year reign of Christ. Now with the first resurrection it speaks only of the souls, not the bodies of the Saints, particularly those martyred for Christ.

Now the Blessed Mother of our Lord died after the NT was written, except maybe the book of Revelations and that Chapter 12 is an allusion to her.

Yes the first resurrection of the saints then yes, but i was not aware the catholic church teaches that the 1000 year reign of the messiah had started as the messiah has nor come yet. Would you be so kind to point me to a document of this teaching, i would like to read this, as I am not certain what they mean by that. As for rev. chap 12, the analogy to Mary seems there but it represents the church; see a part of Benson's commentary;

“St. John resumes his subject from the beginning, and represents the church (Rev 12:1-2) as a woman, and a mother bearing children unto Christ.

Blessings,


JFF

JFF

 

[BillMcEnaney]

Is it your claim that Mary is just as all-knowing as God the Son???

No, in context, only God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost can be all-knowing. If you say that a mere human person is all-knowing, he may know everything about some subject or other. But that doesn't mean that he knows all there is to know about everything. Since God is all-powerful, he can enable any saint to know anything God wants him to know. But that still limits human knowledge because only a divine person can be all-knowing.

You might tell me that even a human person can be all-knowing since Jesus, God the Son, is human. But that ignores the difference between being a human person and being a divine one with a human nature. God the Son, the Holy Trinity's second Person, existed before he incarnated. That's why John 1:1 tells us that, "IN the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God." But think about that passage, Does it make much sense to say that the second Person of the Trinity was with himself, or is St, John implying that the Son was with at least one other divine Person?

I asked you to define omniscience, to tell us the requirements someone must meet to be all-knowing. To put the question more formally, for any person P, P is all-knowing if and only if he meets requirements R1 to Rn. Please list those requirements for us, remembering that to be all-knowing, P must meet them simultaneously.

There's no way to answer the question by merely quoting Bible passages. To answer it, you must do some philosophy of religion.

 

[BobRyan]

But think about that passage, Does it make much sense to say that the second Person of the Trinity was with himself, or is St, John implying that the Son was with at least one other divine Person?

One God Deut 6:4 in Three Persons Matt 28:19

I asked you to define omniscience

All knowing.

, to tell us the requirements someone must meet to be all-knowing.

They must be God - only he "knows all", only He can hear all the prayers said all over the world - at the same time.

 

[The Liturgist]

Yes the first resurrection of the saints then yes, but i was not aware the catholic church teaches that the 1000 year reign of the messiah had started as the messiah has nor come yet. Would you be so kind to point me to a document of this teaching, i would like to read this, as I am not certain what they mean by that. As for rev. chap 12, the analogy to Mary seems there but it represents the church; see a part of Benson's commentary;

“St. John resumes his subject from the beginning, and represents the church (Rev 12:1-2) as a woman, and a mother bearing children unto Christ.

Blessings,


JFF

JFF

Actually all traditional churches, including traditional Protestant denominations like Anglicans, Lutherans and most Methodists, reject the idea of a literal 1,000 year reign and have done so since the Fourth Century. Rejecting this idea, known as Chiliasm, was the original reason why the clause “Whose Kingdom shall have no end” was inserted into the Nicene Creed, and also is the basis for the Feast of Christ the King and Kingdomtide, a liturgical season formerly celebrated by the Methodist Episcopal Church and the Presbyterians.