Question about praying to Mary

[The Liturgist]

"I don't know" is a perfectly fine answer. Answering a question with a series of questions, not so much. Making them personally challenging questions, even less so.

You must surely be referring to a reply other than that offered by @Erose in #17, which contains no questions.

That being said, asking questions in response to questions is a valid dialectical technique to stimulate thought.

Could you perhaps explain it in plain English?

Forgive me, but I don’t see how I can do better than “ It works by God's grace free given to the Blessed Mother and to all His Children in heaven. We will not be restricted in heaven like we are here on earth; thus what is impossible for us now; won't be in heaven.”

However, I will try. Basically, in the Resurrection, and the Theotokos is resurrected already, since like Elijah she was assumed bodily, we know that we shall be changed and have superhuman abilities, and in the interim in Heaven we exist alive in a spiritual form, and even on Earth God can grant us additional abilities, such as those seen in Acts. It is the power of an omnipotent deity to be able to grant to those of us who have embraced Him and been transformed by His love to respond with Love to the petitions of the millions who seek to follow them as followers of Jesus Christ throughout their lives.

Also how does a book that's in the Old Testament of the Catholic and Orthodox Bible, explain anything regarding Mary and Christian saints?

I didn't see such in reading the text:

14 Then Onias answering, said: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God.

15 Whereupon Jeremias stretched forth his right hand, and gave to Judas a sword of gold, saying:

16 Take this holy sword a gift from God, wherewith thou shalt overthrow the adversaries of my people Israel.

17 Thus being exhorted with the words of Judas, which were very good, and proper to stir up the courage, and strengthen the hearts of the young men, they resolved to fight, and to set upon them manfully: that valour might decide the matter, because the holy city and the temple were in danger. 2 Maccabees 15:14-17 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition).

Well, firstly, I am going to quote 2 Maccabees from the official Anglican Bible, the King James Version, which is Protestant, although Eastern Orthodox churches are known to like its translation of the New Testament (but would use another edition for reading 2 Maccabees, like the Orthodox Study Bible, translated from the Septuagint:

.
12 And this was his vision: That Onias, who had been high priest, a virtuous and a good man, reverend in conversation, gentle in condition, well spoken also, and exercised from a child in all points of virtue, holding up his hands prayed for the whole body of the Jews.
13 This done, in like manner there appeared a man with gray hairs, and exceeding glorious, who was of a wonderful and excellent majesty.
14 Then Onias answered, saying, This is a lover of the brethren, who prayeth much for the people, and for the holy city, to wit, Jeremias the prophet of God.
15 Whereupon Jeremias holding forth his right hand gave to Judas a sword of gold, and in giving it spake thus,
16 Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with the which thou shalt wound the adversaries.
17 Thus being well comforted by the words of Judas, which were very good, and able to stir them up to valour, and to encourage the hearts of the young men, they determined not to pitch camp, but courageously to set upon them, and manfully to try the matter by conflict, because the city and the sanctuary and the temple were in danger.

What we see here, in 2 Maccabees, in the King James Version, also known as the Authorized Version, translated by and for the Church of England, is an Old Testament saint interceding on behalf of the people. And it is clearly St. Jeremias and not an imposter, unlike in the Witch of Endor incident, where there is no Patristic consensus on whether or not that was St. Samuel, or a demon, or the witch herself or someone aiding her in her necromancy. However there is enough of a lack of consensus from enough Patristic authorities to make one wary of that incident. Not so here, in 2 Maccabees.

 

[ozso]

You must surely be referring to a reply other than that offered by @Erose in #17, which contains no questions.

That being said, asking questions in response to questions is a valid dialectical technique to stimulate thought.



Forgive me, but I don’t see how I can do better than “ It works by God's grace free given to the Blessed Mother and to all His Children in heaven. We will not be restricted in heaven like we are here on earth; thus what is impossible for us now; won't be in heaven.”

However, I will try. Basically, in the Resurrection, and the Theotokos is resurrected already, since like Elijah she was assumed bodily, we know that we shall be changed and have superhuman abilities, and in the interim in Heaven we exist alive in a spiritual form, and even on Earth God can grant us additional abilities, such as those seen in Acts. It is the power of an omnipotent deity to be able to grant to those of us who have embraced Him and been transformed by His love to respond with Love to the petitions of the millions who seek to follow them as followers of Jesus Christ throughout their lives.

So the answer to my question is, Mary was given god-like abilities. That's all anyone who knows about it had to say.

Well, firstly, I am going to quote 2 Maccabees from the official Anglican Bible, the King James Version, which is Protestant, although Eastern Orthodox churches are known to like its translation of the New Testament (but would use another edition for reading 2 Maccabees, like the Orthodox Study Bible, translated from the Septuagint:

.
12 And this was his vision: That Onias, who had been high priest, a virtuous and a good man, reverend in conversation, gentle in condition, well spoken also, and exercised from a child in all points of virtue, holding up his hands prayed for the whole body of the Jews.
13 This done, in like manner there appeared a man with gray hairs, and exceeding glorious, who was of a wonderful and excellent majesty.
14 Then Onias answered, saying, This is a lover of the brethren, who prayeth much for the people, and for the holy city, to wit, Jeremias the prophet of God.
15 Whereupon Jeremias holding forth his right hand gave to Judas a sword of gold, and in giving it spake thus,
16 Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with the which thou shalt wound the adversaries.
17 Thus being well comforted by the words of Judas, which were very good, and able to stir them up to valour, and to encourage the hearts of the young men, they determined not to pitch camp, but courageously to set upon them, and manfully to try the matter by conflict, because the city and the sanctuary and the temple were in danger.

What we see here, in 2 Maccabees, in the King James Version, also known as the Authorized Version, translated by and for the Church of England, is an Old Testament saint interceding on behalf of the people. And it is clearly St. Jeremias and not an imposter, unlike in the Witch of Endor incident, where there is no Patristic consensus on whether or not that was St. Samuel, or a demon, or the witch herself or someone aiding her in her necromancy. However there is enough of a lack of consensus from enough Patristic authorities to make one wary of that incident. Not so here, in 2 Maccabees.

That seems like very scant scriptural backing, especially if that's the main proof text. It seems like one of those interpretations that mostly only supports doctrine if one really very much wants it to.

Also I wasn't aware that Old Testament figures were counted as saints. I've never heard or seen "Saint Abraham" or "Saint Moses" or "Saint David" before.

 

[The Liturgist]

So the answer to my question is, Mary was given god-like abilities. That's all anyone who knows about it had to say.

I wouldn’t say that, except to the extent the charisms already received such as prophecy, instantaneous acquisition of new languages, and various other miraculous abilities are god-like, and they are godlike for a good reason: because our salvation, Theosis, entails us becoming godlike, insofar as we become eternal and immortal, which is a divine attribute.

However the specific ability of the Blessed Virgin Mary to hear our intercessory prayers appears to be granted to all saints and possibly to anyone in an excorporeal condition, so I would strongly hesitate to call that specific gift godlike. Rather, the godlike qualities of the Theotokos are her abstinence from sin, worldly desires, carnality and so on and her total love for and devotion to God, which is why she was selected to be a mother who provided a human nature to the Logos, facilitating the incarnation of God the Son.

It must be stressed that there is a difference between theosis and apotheosis, however. We never become members of the Holy Trinity or actual deities worthy of worship, as Mormonism suggests. Rather we become through grace what Christ is by nature, for as St. Athanasius put it, “God became man so man could become god.”

That seems like very scant scriptural backing, especially if that's the main proof text. It seems like one of those interpretations that mostly only supports doctrine if one really very much wants it to.

Frankly, there are numerous doctrines believed in by many which have scantier scriptural backing or which contradict it outright, for example, the rejection by adherents of Nuda Scriptura of tradition.

Also I wasn't aware that Old Testament figures were counted as saints. I've never heard or seen "Saint Abraham" or "Saint Moses" or "Saint David" before.

Well, they do…there was a Roman Catholic parish in Tehran, St. Abraham’s, which I believe has since been suppressed by the brutal dictatorship, and St. Elias (Elijah) is one of the most popular patron saints for Antiochian Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox and Melkite Catholic churches.

And this is extremely proper, because the Orthodox perspective is that the Church has always existed, and merely began its current form of operations at Pentecost, as opposed to starting at Pentecost from scratch, and also that the righteous men of the Old Testament and any others who wished to follow them were retrieved by our Lord in the Harrowing of Hell.

 

[ozso]

I wouldn’t say that, except to the extent the charisms already received such as prophecy, instantaneous acquisition of new languages, and various other miraculous abilities are god-like, and they are godlike for a good reason: because our salvation, Theosis, entails us becoming godlike, insofar as we become eternal and immortal, which is a divine attribute.

However the specific ability of the Blessed Virgin Mary to hear our intercessory prayers appears to be granted to all saints and possibly to anyone in an excorporeal condition, so I would strongly hesitate to call that specific gift godlike. Rather, the godlike qualities of the Theotokos are her abstinence from sin, worldly desires, carnality and so on and her total love for and devotion to God, which is why she was selected to be a mother who provided a human nature to the Logos, facilitating the incarnation of God the Son.

It must be stressed that there is a difference between theosis and apotheosis, however. We never become members of the Holy Trinity or actual deities worthy of worship, as Mormonism suggests. Rather we become through grace what Christ is by nature, for as St. Athanasius put it, “God became man so man could become god.”

Alright. I suppose there's no short answer. I remember when I asked the Orthodox about praying for the dead, I was told Paul prayed for the dead (wherever that is I don’t feel like tracking it down) and that was a good enough clear enough and scripturally backed answer as far as I was concerned.

Frankly, there are numerous doctrines believed in by many which have scantier scriptural backing or which contradict it outright, for example, the rejection by adherents of Nuda Scriptura of tradition.

Yeah but this is major theology of the Catholic and Orthodox Church.

Well, they do…there was a Roman Catholic parish in Tehran, St. Abraham’s, which I believe has since been suppressed by the brutal dictatorship, and St. Elias (Elijah) is one of the most popular patron saints for Antiochian Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox and Melkite Catholic churches.

And this is extremely proper, because the Orthodox perspective is that the Church has always existed, and merely began its current form of operations at Pentecost, as opposed to starting at Pentecost from scratch, and also that the righteous men of the Old Testament and any others who wished to follow them were retrieved by our Lord in the Harrowing of Hell.

I get it now. I just don't recall ever having come across it knowingly before. The names rendered into Latin rather then Greek makes it less obvious of course.

 

[The Liturgist]

Yeah but this is major theology of the Catholic and Orthodox Church.

And many Anglicans, who are Protestants, as well as other High Church Protestants, and the Assyrian churches.

Also note as much as I wish canonical reunification could happen, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox are distinct, albeit with extremely close ecumenical relations between the Armenians, Copts and Syriac Orthodox, and various Eastern Orthodox churches, particularly the Patriarchate of Alexandria and the Antiochian Orthodox Church.

Lastly, you should be aware that the EO, OO and Assyrians do not embrace even the Sola Scriptura of Martin Luther, let alone the Regulative Principle of Calvinists or the Nuda Scriptura approach of many evangelicals and fundamentalists. It is literally enough that a doctrine has existed as part of Holy Tradition, for example, the Dormition of the Theotokos, which is recognized by the EO, OO, RC and many Anglicans (also called the Assumption), and I believe some Lutherans as well, and which lacks any scriptural proof, but which nonetheless constitutes a traditional doctrine, and a reasonable one, given that there are no bodily relics of the Blessed Virgin, whereas we have relics of the other Apostles, for example, the head of St. Mark the Evangelist and the entire body of St. Thomas the Apostle (which was found secreted in the wall of a Syriac Orthodox church in Iraq by the late Patriarch Mor Ignatius Zakka Iwas, who reposed in 2014 - memory eternal). And many other relics; those are just two that come to mind, because the head of St. Mark was brought to the US to several Coptic Orthodox churches (I believe this was returned to the Copts on either a temporary or permanent basis from Venice, where it is a known fact that the old Venetian Republic, which really harmed Eastern Christianity, for example with the fourth crusade in 1204, stole his body from the Church in Alexandria in order to make Venice a destination for pilgrims).

 

[Erose]

All of your posts in this thread seem to amount to "I don't know".

Well, when it comes to the things of God, all we can give as an answer by God's grace or His power. I know you think you came up with a "I got you" question; but you really didn't.

So let me provide you with a short list of other questions in this realm:

1) How did God create the universe out of nothing?
2) How did the Apostles and some of the Prophets and other Saints healed people of afflictions?
3) How was the Red Sea departed?
4) How did Elijah stop it from raining, allowed it to start raining, gave a poor woman a jar that was never without flour, resurrected a young man?

What is your answer to these questions? I bet you it is the same as mine, via God's grace and power.

 

[BobRyan]

Question to Catholics: wouldn't Mary have to be omniscient to hear and process hundreds of prayers being prayed to her in a steady stream every minute 24/7?

Note: input from former or non-Catholics is welcome.

It is not just Mary - but in fact all of those that they are praying to in heaven.

In the Catholic Catechism this comes under the section "prayers to the dead". More precisely I should say it is "communion WITH the DEAD"

​

Catholic Catechism on communion with the dead.​

​

958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.​

Closely related to -- 957 where the only difference is the location of the dead person. In one case that location is "in heaven" as we see below.

957 Communion with the saints. "It is not merely by the title of example that we cherish the memory of those in heaven; we seek, rather, that by this devotion to the exercise of fraternal charity the union of the whole Church in the Spirit may be strengthened. Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself"498:​

And that brings up another whole list of questions as well.

Having God-like all-knowing omni-presence such that they are hearing all prayers to them even if said at the same moment in time as well as answering those prayers individually - is more god-like than almost anyone could image I suppose.

 

[Erose]

So the answer to my question is, Mary was given god-like abilities. That's all anyone who knows about it had to say.

Has not God given Saints here on earth otherworldly powers? The ability to heal, raise the dead, part the Red Sea, cast out demons, the ability to know the hearts of others, prophecy the future, call down fire from heaven. These were all done by men by faith in God. Just imagine what we will be able to do without a lack of faith! When we know God and see Him face to face. When no doubts remain, within our hearts.

It is not just Mary - but in fact all of those that they are praying to in heaven.

In the Catholic Catechism this comes under the section "prayers to the dead". And that brings up another whole list of questions as well.

Having God-like all-knowing omni-presence such that they are hearing all prayers to them even if said at the same moment in time as well as answering those prayers individually - is more god-like than almost anyone could image I suppose.

I guess you doubt what God’s grace can give us to do, especially when it comes to helping our brethren still in the fire. But then if I remember correctly you believe in the concept of soul-sleep; so I can see why you would find this incredulou.

 

[ozso]

And many Anglicans, who are Protestants, as well as other High Church Protestants, and the Assyrian churches.

Also note as much as I wish canonical reunification could happen, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox are distinct, albeit with extremely close ecumenical relations between the Armenians, Copts and Syriac Orthodox, and various Eastern Orthodox churches, particularly the Patriarchate of Alexandria and the Antiochian Orthodox Church.

Lastly, you should be aware that the EO, OO and Assyrians do not embrace even the Sola Scriptura of Martin Luther, let alone the Regulative Principle of Calvinists or the Nuda Scriptura approach of many evangelicals and fundamentalists. It is literally enough that a doctrine has existed as part of Holy Tradition, for example, the Dormition of the Theotokos, which is recognized by the EO, OO, RC and many Anglicans (also called the Assumption), and I believe some Lutherans as well, and which lacks any scriptural proof, but which nonetheless constitutes a traditional doctrine, and a reasonable one, given that there are no bodily relics of the Blessed Virgin, whereas we have relics of the other Apostles, for example, the head of St. Mark the Evangelist and the entire body of St. Thomas the Apostle (which was found secreted in the wall of a Syriac Orthodox church in Iraq by the late Patriarch Mor Ignatius Zakka Iwas, who reposed in 2014 - memory eternal). And many other relics; those are just two that come to mind, because the head of St. Mark was brought to the US to several Coptic Orthodox churches (I believe this was returned to the Copts on either a temporary or permanent basis from Venice, where it is a known fact that the old Venetian Republic, which really harmed Eastern Christianity, for example with the fourth crusade in 1204, stole his body from the Church in Alexandria in order to make Venice a destination for pilgrims).

Well as you know, many would say that's because Mary wasn't considered as important as the Apostles early on. Whereas concerning the Apostles we have passages like "The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." Revelation 21:14.

Did the first Church Fathers write anything about Mary?

 

[ozso]

Well, when it comes to the things of God, all we can give as an answer by God's grace or His power. I know you think you came up with a "I got you" question; but you really didn't.

So let me provide you with a short list of other questions in this realm:

1) How did God create the universe out of nothing?
2) How did the Apostles and some of the Prophets and other Saints healed people of afflictions?
3) How was the Red Sea departed?
4) How did Elijah stop it from raining, allowed it to start raining, gave a poor woman a jar that was never without flour, resurrected a young man?

What is your answer to these questions? I bet you it is the same as mine, via God's grace and power.

The question isn't can God bestow power on, or work through his children. The question is did God bestow power on Mary to make her virtually omniscient?

 

[Erose]

The question isn't can God bestow power on, or work through his children. The question is did God bestow power on Mary to make her virtually omniscient?

From the evidence over our 2000 year history, of prayers answered through the intercession of the Blessed Mother, the answer is yes.

My firstborn son is a result of her intercession; so I do not doubt this.

 

[ozso]

From the evidence over our 2000 year history, of prayers answered through the intercession of the Blessed Mother, the answer is yes.

My firstborn son is a result of her intercession; so I do not doubt this.

So if it weren't for Mary, many or most prayers wouldn't be answered.

Where's the biblical intercessor known as the Holy Spirit in all of this? Seems the the third person of the Godhead plays a relatively minor role in intercession.

 

[Erose]

So if it weren't for Mary, many or most prayers wouldn't be answered.

Where's the biblical intercessor known as the Holy Spirit in all of this? Seems the the third person of the Godhead plays a relatively minor role in intercession.

We learn from Scripture that the intercessory prayer of the righteous is more likely to be heard. We see this in the Old Testament, with the power of the prayer of the Prophets, especially Moses, who saw God face to face. Mary is the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ. Whose prayers is God more likely to answer? Mine or the Mother of His Son?

I'm not saying nor does the Church not to pray directly to God, for the prayer known as the "Our Father" taught to us by our Lord Jesus teaches this. But when we are dire straits and needing God's help, we would be foolish not to ask for others to pray for us.

In the doctrine of the Communion of Saints, we know that the whole Body of Christ, His Church is connected via His Spirit, in a very mystical and powerful way. That Body of Christ, the Church is not just His followers here on Earth, but also made up of His followers in heaven; and we Catholics would say also those in Purgatory. Church Militant, Church Triumphant, and Church Suffering. We believe that even though our brethren have already preceded us to live directly with God, they have not forgotten their brethren here on Earth; and thus intercede for us daily, that we may win the race, and join them in heaven with our Father.

Another way to look at it is we are family with God as our Father, our Firstborn brother, Jesus; and our Mother because she is the mother of Jesus. When a child wishes to get help or something from his/her father, that child can go directly to their dad to ask Him; but it also doesn't hurt to have mama, and bubba and sissy backing you up, especially if you are the kid that is always in trouble.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

That is why I pray to the father only as Jesus did.

Bessings,

jff

Do you pray to Jesus?

 

[DragonFox91]

Erose, would you be able to provide an example of a prayer to Mary? I think what scares a lot of us Protestants is the language to her is a lot more than simply asking a family member or friend to pray for them, so we can't connect w/ that analogy.

 

[YeshuaFollower]

Do you pray to Jesus?

I pray to the father, the living GOD, Jesus and the father are one according to scriptures, see John 17, john 10:30 and other verses as well, so when I pray to the father, Jesus knows also.

Blessings.

 

[Erose]

Erose, would you be able to provide an example of a prayer to Mary? I think what scares a lot of us Protestants is the language to her is a lot more than simply asking a family member or friend to pray for them, so we can't connect w/ that analogy.

Obviously the first prayer that would come to mind is the ”Hail Mary”. By far the most used prayer to our Blessed Mother.

Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with you
Blessed are you among women, blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus!

Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.

You may notice that most of this prayer is actually from Scripture, just the last part is not.

There are others, many of them coming from the Middle Ages which you have to take in mind that the language used during that time was very flourishing. You can find those online.

IMO, it is because of the flourishing language of that time where many prayers, that are still used come, from that a lot of non-Catholics get their issues. But when you read the language used for royalty and nobility, between lovers and beloveds, and with the understanding that Mary is the the Queen-Mother of the fulfilled Kingdom of David, that using language anything less than what was used for royalty and nobility would pretty much equate to blasphemy.

Also, the language used in so many prayers and even writings at that time by mystics and some saints are the same language used in the Song of Solomon, i.e. lover and beloved.

 

[bbbbbbb]

When all the dust really settles on this issue, the RCC, although not the EOC, treats Mary very close to being the Fourth individual of the Godhead. She is omniscient, omnipresent, and hears and answers untold millions of prayers addressed to her simultaneously. Moreover, her intercession is far more significant to her at certain holy places on earth than, say, in one's bathroom. The Four Marian Dogmas of the RCC make this quite plain, although the Fifth Marian Dogma has yet to be proclaimed, which will pretty much seal the deal.

 

[BobRyan]

It is not just Mary - but in fact all of those that they are praying to in heaven.

In the Catholic Catechism this comes under the section "prayers to the dead". And that brings up another whole list of questions as well.

Having God-like all-knowing omni-presence such that they are hearing all prayers to them even if said at the same moment in time as well as answering those prayers individually - is more god-like than almost anyone could image I suppose.

I guess you doubt what God’s grace can give us to do, especially when it comes to helping our brethren still in the fire. But then if I remember correctly you believe in the concept of soul-sleep; so I can see why you would find this incredulou.

I could come up with a lot of stories - and then if someone notices that the Bible does not support the details I come up with -- I could then charge them with "doubting that God has the power to do whatever I come up with in one of my stories".

So while that does fit the role of "a response" in defense of one of my stories -- - it is not a compelling argument per se, and I doubt that you would accept that as a satisfactory argument in favor of a story I posted.

Then if it goes to "the next step" and the one objecting also notes that my stories actually contradict clear Bible teaching at times - well then the case for my stories gets even worse.

I could try to salvage my story by saying "well then you doubt that God has the Power to fix the part where my story contradicts Bible teaching so that my story is still true"... but there again - not a very compelling solution for most.

 

[DragonFox91]

Erose, how does that prayer communicate what you want her to bring to the Godhead? What exactly do you want her to communicate to him when you say that?