Question about praying to Mary

[BobRyan]

Obviously the first prayer that would come to mind is the ”Hail Mary”. By far the most used prayer to our Blessed Mother.

Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with you
Blessed are you among women, blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus!

Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.

You may notice that most of this prayer is actually from Scripture, just the last part is not.

That is a quote of scripture - but in scripture it is not prayer.

In fact we find no example in scripture of anyone praying to the dead, no example at all of anyone praying to Mary alive or dead in scripture.

 

[DragonFox91]

That is a quote of scripture - but in scripture it is not prayer.

In fact we find no example in scripture of anyone praying to the dead, no example at all of anyone praying to Mary alive or dead in scripture.

They think "praying" is simply talking & Mary is alive in heaven so she's not dead. That makes sense to me. I can understand that part. What doesn't make sense to me is the point of the prayer. What message does the prayer want Mary to communicate to God? If they want Mary to intercede for them, shouldn't they be saying a little bit more than "pray for us?' When I ask someone to pray for me, I tell them my needs. Is Mary so distant too they can't communicate to her even the message they want her to take to God?

 

[The Liturgist]

Obviously the first prayer that would come to mind is the ”Hail Mary”. By far the most used prayer to our Blessed Mother.

Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with you
Blessed are you among women, blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus!

Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.

You may notice that most of this prayer is actually from Scripture, just the last part is not.

There are others, many of them coming from the Middle Ages which you have to take in mind that the language used during that time was very flourishing. You can find those online.

IMO, it is because of the flourishing language of that time where many prayers, that are still used come, from that a lot of non-Catholics get their issues. But when you read the language used for royalty and nobility, between lovers and beloveds, and with the understanding that Mary is the the Queen-Mother of the fulfilled Kingdom of David, that using language anything less than what was used for royalty and nobility would pretty much equate to blasphemy.

Also, the language used in so many prayers and even writings at that time by mystics and some saints are the same language used in the Song of Solomon, i.e. lover and beloved.

Interestingly Martin Luther used this prayer (the Hail Mary) except for the Intercession, as @MarkRohfrietsch can confirm, and the Syriac Orthodox use in English the same wording as the Roman Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox and Russian Old Rite Orthodox have two slightly different wordings. There is also the Prayer Rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov, prayed on a special lestovka (which I managed to obtain) which is 200 Hail Mary prayers. The difference between it and the Rosary is it lacks the Decades or the use of the visual imagination.

 

[The Liturgist]

That is a quote of scripture - but in scripture it is not prayer.

In fact we find no example in scripture of anyone praying to the dead, no example at all of anyone praying to Mary alive or dead in scripture.

St. Mary is alive, and again, no one in the churches which say the Hail Mary subscribe to Nuda Scriptura or the Regulative Principle interpretation of Sola Scriptura.

 

[The Liturgist]

They think "praying" is simply talking & Mary is alive in heaven so she's not dead. That makes sense to me. I can understand that part. What doesn't make sense to me is the point of the prayer. What message does the prayer want Mary to communicate to God? If they want Mary to intercede for them, shouldn't they be saying a little bit more than "pray for us?' When I ask someone to pray for me, I tell them my needs. Is Mary so distant too they can't communicate to her even the message they want her to take to God?

There are prayers where the Blessed Virgin is asked to pray on specific matters, for example, the Byzantine prayer-hymn known as the Akathist.

However, the Hail Mary is an example of an “Arrow Prayer” very similiar to the Jesus Prayer or the Kyrie Eleison “Lord have mercy” or “Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, a sinner”, in that we are praying either directly to God for mercy in this world and the next, or to the saints to intercede for divine mercy and salvation. I hope that clears that up.

 

[JSRG]

It is not just Mary - but in fact all of those that they are praying to in heaven.

In the Catholic Catechism this comes under the section "prayers to the dead". And that brings up another whole list of questions as well.

Having God-like all-knowing omni-presence such that they are hearing all prayers to them even if said at the same moment in time as well as answering those prayers individually - is more god-like than almost anyone could image I suppose.

A search through the Catechism of the Catholic Church at Catechism of the Catholic Church as well as Catechism of the Catholic Church : Catholic Church : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive turns up zero matches for the phrase "prayers to the dead". Can you point to the section you are referring to?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Psalm 44 in Douay Rheims, 45 in other translations


7 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a sceptre of uprightness.

8 Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

9 Myrrh and stacte and cassia perfume thy garments, from the ivory houses: out of which

10 the daughters of kings have delighted thee in thy glory. The queen stood on thy right hand, in gilded clothing; surrounded with variety.

11 Hearken, O daughter, and see, and incline thy ear: and forget thy people and thy father's house.

12 And the king shall greatly desire thy beauty; for he is the Lord thy God, and him they shall adore.


13 And the daughters of Tyre with gifts, yea, all the rich among the people, shall entreat thy countenance.

14 All the glory of the king's daughter is within in golden borders,

15 clothed round about with varieties. After her shall virgins be brought to the king: her neighbours shall be brought to thee.

16 They shall be brought with gladness and rejoicing: they shall be brought into the temple of the king



Jesus is at the right hand of the Father as declared in the Apostles creed. Mary is at the right hand of Jesus. Do you think God's grace keeps you blind as here on Earth? That is faulty reasoning. As Paul says now we see as through a glass darkly but then face to face. Mary is in heaven and beholding God face to face. We do not pray to her as to the Creator, but we ask her to pray for us, as she is closer to God than us and knows Him better than we ever will. Who can say that they bore the Creator of the universe in her womb and spoke with Him for thirty years and He was subject to her? None of us but Mary can say that. She is part of the hypostatic union. The God made man came into the world through her. Should she not receive honor? God commands us to honor our mother and father. Does He not obey His own commands better than us and honor His own mother above all creation? Would anything less be worthy of His self imposed duty to follow His own commands?

Mary can hear our prayers because she is at Jesus' right hand and He empowers her to hear them and answer them. There is more to Marian devotion than the "Hail Mary" prayer, which is a meditation on scripture. We do ask her for our specific intentions. The Memore prayer is said:

Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary
that never was it known that anyone
that fled to your protection, sought your help, or implored your intercession
was left unaided.
Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto you or Virgin of virgins, my mother
to thee do I come, before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful
O mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions
but in thy mercy hear and answer me

(tell her your petitions)

We ask her as an act of humility before God, as Jesus told us to become like little children to enter the kingdom of heaven. Children ask their mother to help them in speaking with their father. We do not treat her as an idol that is more powerful than God and to be looked to instead of God. We look to her as the work of God's hands, and by Hid command to humiliate ourselves. An idol is made by human hands, not God's. Mary is not an idol in the Catholic Church. Collyridianism is rebuked as heresy, by the Catholic Church. The modern equivalent would be radical feminism that exalts the female goddess over God Himself. That is not what the Catholic Church teaches us to do.



Those of you that look down on Mary or ignore her are in for a rude awakening. When you see her, you will be cut to the heart and embarrassed that you ever said any idle work against her. She is the first of all Christians, as she bore Him in her womb and raised Him for thirty years before He was ever revealed to the world. The bible says in Song of songs or Canticle of canticles 6:9 Who is she that comes forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the Sun, terrible as an army set in array?
She is the perfect example of humility, "Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done to me according to thy word"

Do you like people to talk bad about your mother? Do you think God likes it when people degrade His mother? Really?
I pray that you repent in this life, because if you see her unprepared in the next life, you will either cry for mercy and beg forgiveness or you will wail and gnash your teeth. That is truly a horrifying thought

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Interestingly Martin Luther used this prayer (the Hail Mary) except for the Intercession, as @MarkRohfrietsch can confirm, and the Syriac Orthodox use in English the same wording as the Roman Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox and Russian Old Rite Orthodox have two slightly different wordings. There is also the Prayer Rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov, prayed on a special lestovka (which I managed to obtain) which is 200 Hail Mary prayers. The difference between it and the Rosary is it lacks the Decades or the use of the visual imagination.

The Hail Mary, as found in the Bible is an exclamation by Elizabeth as she tries to comprehend the miracle of the incarnation; which, while not common, would be the purpose of using the pre-trent form by Lutherans; to contemplate the incarnation. Luther's "Evangelical Praise of the Mother of God does this as well; and is very much a prayer. Not asking for stuff, but honoring the Blessed Virgin:

O Blessed Virgin, Mother of God, what great comfort God has shown us in you, by so graciously regarding your unworthiness and low estate. This encourages us to believe that henceforth He will not despise us poor and lowly ones, but graciously regard us also, according to your example.

 

[BobRyan]

A search through the Catechism of the Catholic Church at Catechism of the Catholic Church as well as Catechism of the Catholic Church : Catholic Church : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive turns up zero matches for the phrase "prayers to the dead". Can you point to the section you are referring to?

I see the phrase when I look it up is "communion WITH the Dead" - I will update my post

Catholic Catechism on communion with the dead.

958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.

 

[DragonFox91]

I'm sorry, guys. I wish I could believe you're right. I want to get this right & leave no stone unturned. This is very important. But I don't see the analogies.

If it's honoring, contemplating, or meditating, then no, it's not like asking someone to pray for you here on earth. It is in fact honoring, contemplating, or meditating. But that reminds me more of worship than 'asking someone to pray for me' & I do not worship anyone outside the Godhead. It seems like you will occasionally sprinkle in a request to safeguard yourself so you can say these prayers aren't giving her the authority & glory.

No, it's not disrepecting her to not pray to her. I can respect she's his earthly mother. I can call her blessed. I can call her holy. But I do not ask people to pray to my mother, so no, I do not understand the analogy 'do you not like it when people disprect your mother?'

Bringing in a feminine is common in pagan religions. It's not like today's radical feminism, no, but it is of the same branch of your understanding of Mary in that it has the same motivations.

I see no difference between what pagan idolators of the past would have said & what you guys are saying. I'm sure idolators said the same thing when they were told not to idolize. "The One God made them so it's okay! They have a better connection to him than we do!!!" How much sense their arguments would make! "We don't know if he'll listen to our prayers so these idols will help!"

The Church is referred to as the Bride of Christ. That is the prophecy in that Psalm. It is not Mary. That Psalm is a wedding psalm. So b/c we know it's a wedding Psalm, we know the woman mentioned in it is the Bride & not the mother. The King's Bride is the Church. Jesus did not marry Mary & neither did you & neither will you.

I do not understand the 'he would honor his mother above all creation b/c of the Commandment to honor your parents' either. He honors the Father above all creation.

Idols can in fact be things not made of human hands. In the past people would worship kings & queens as sub-divine. They weren't made by human hands but humans idolized them regardless. So no, just b/c Mary was created by God, that doesn't mean she can't be an idol.

Do children ask their mother for help speaking to their father? Sometimes, but children do a lot of things, that doesn't mean you should be following how they do things to worship the Godhead!
Sometimes it's the opposite. Children go to their father to speak to their mother. Do you go to Jesus to help speak to Mary?

You speak like someone who has looked little into this, thought very deeply, or questioned it, & were led by emotion.

 

[BobRyan]

St. Mary is alive,

She never died? or she died and was resurrected? How do you mean that?

958 Communion with the dead. --

Are you saying there is no communion with Mary as one of those that are dead ?

 

[BobRyan]

They think "praying" is simply talking & Mary is alive in heaven so she's not dead.

ok so when they talk about -- 958 Communion with the dead. do they think those dead people "are dead"?

Paul calls them "the dead in Christ" in 1 Thess 4

 

[DragonFox91]

ok so when they talk about -- 958 Communion with the dead. do they think those dead people "are dead"?

Paul calls them "the dead in Christ" in 1 Thess 4

They do not think they are dead, no, otherwise they wouldn't pray to them.

I don't pray to them because God is a jealous God & wants you to pray to him. He wouldn't give other people his powers because it is HIS glory & HIS alone. Amen!

 

[BobRyan]

ok so when they talk about -- 958 Communion with the dead. do they think those dead people "are dead"?

They do not think they are dead,

There's the "rub" as they say since that means they are in a self-conflicted position with their own statement heading 958 in the Catechism by saying "the dead are not the dead - in fact not dead'.

So in the 958 sense of "the dead" do they "consult the dead on behalf of the living"??

 

[Valletta]

When all the dust really settles on this issue, the RCC, although not the EOC, treats Mary very close to being the Fourth individual of the Godhead. She is omniscient, omnipresent, and hears and answers untold millions of prayers addressed to her simultaneously. Moreover, her intercession is far more significant to her at certain holy places on earth than, say, in one's bathroom. The Four Marian Dogmas of the RCC make this quite plain, although the Fifth Marian Dogma has yet to be proclaimed, which will pretty much seal the deal.

False. Mary is not omniscient nor omnipresent. Why do you misrepresent the Catholic faith? Consider that perhaps you do so because you cannot factually disprove the Catholic faith. If you want a serious discussion about actual Catholic teaching please quote the Catholic Catechism, as I have told people so many times. Typically Catholic bashers pick their own incorrect rendition of Catholicism and then start from there. As is evident in one of our oldest prayers, Psalm 103, those in Heaven can hear us. As to the exact mechanism of how God makes it so, how our prayers are somehow transported through the ethos or whatever I do not know.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

She never died? or she died and was resurrected? How do you mean that?

958 Communion with the dead. --

Are you saying there is no communion with Mary as one of those that are dead ?

If I had a dollar for every time this question or one similar has been asked by you.... Trying to be smart; silly; what... it's not working. For the benifit of others; she lives eternally with all of the faithful departed.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I'm sorry, guys. I wish I could believe you're right. I want to get this right & leave no stone unturned. This is very important. But I don't see the analogies.

If it's honoring, contemplating, or meditating, then no, it's not like asking someone to pray for you here on earth. It is in fact honoring, contemplating, or meditating. But that reminds me more of worship than 'asking someone to pray for me' & I do not worship anyone outside the Godhead. It seems like you will occasionally sprinkle in a request to safeguard yourself so you can say these prayers aren't giving her the authority & glory.

No, it's not disrepecting her to not pray to her. I can respect she's his earthly mother. I can call her blessed. I can call her holy. But I do not ask people to pray to my mother, so no, I do not understand the analogy 'do you not like it when people disprect your mother?'

Bringing in a feminine is common in pagan religions. It's not like today's radical feminism, no, but it is of the same branch of your understanding of Mary in that it has the same motivations.

I see no difference between what pagan idolators of the past would have said & what you guys are saying. I'm sure idolators said the same thing when they were told not to idolize. "The One God made them so it's okay! They have a better connection to him than we do!!!" How much sense their arguments would make! "We don't know if he'll listen to our prayers so these idols will help!"

The Church is referred to as the Bride of Christ. That is the prophecy in that Psalm. It is not Mary. That Psalm is a wedding psalm. So b/c we know it's a wedding Psalm, we know the woman mentioned in it is the Bride & not the mother. The King's Bride is the Church. Jesus did not marry Mary & neither did you & neither will you.

I do not understand the 'he would honor his mother above all creation b/c of the Commandment to honor your parents' either. He honors the Father above all creation.

Idols can in fact be things not made of human hands. In the past people would worship kings & queens as sub-divine. They weren't made by human hands but humans idolized them regardless. So no, just b/c Mary was created by God, that doesn't mean she can't be an idol.

Do children ask their mother for help speaking to their father? Sometimes, but children do a lot of things, that doesn't mean you should be following how they do things to worship the Godhead!
Sometimes it's the opposite. Children go to their father to speak to their mother. Do you go to Jesus to help speak to Mary?

You speak like someone who has looked little into this, thought very deeply, or questioned it, & were led by emotion.

Since the Bible speaks often of her, and in a way that shows honor and blessedness, if we do not do the same we dishonor Scripture, which is the Word of God, so we would, in my opinion, dishonor God by denying to Mary what the Bible states is her due. This past Friday in our Church we marked "The Presentation of our Lord and the Purification of the Virgin Mary. Our Choir, Pastor and I doing the best we could with a poor turnout due to blizzard conditions:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=711160757423366

 

[The Liturgist]

Since the Bible speaks often of her, and in a way that shows honor and blessedness, if we do not do the same we dishonor Scripture, which is the Word of God, so we would, in my opinion, dishonor God by denying to Mary what the Bible states is her due. This past Friday in our Church we marked "The Presentation of our Lord and the Purification of the Virgin Mary. Our Choir, Pastor and I doing the best we could with a poor turnout due to blizzard conditions:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=711160757423366

I shudder to think how cold it must get for a Canadian to declare blizzard conditions, given how hardy you all are. What I might call a blizzard I expect you would dismiss as “Its just a snowstorm eh.”

What is really impressive though is how your church gets turnout despite blizzard conditions.

 

[YeshuaFollower]

When all the dust really settles on this issue, the RCC, although not the EOC, treats Mary very close to being the Fourth individual of the Godhead. She is omniscient, omnipresent, and hears and answers untold millions of prayers addressed to her simultaneously. Moreover, her intercession is far more significant to her at certain holy places on earth than, say, in one's bathroom. The Four Marian Dogmas of the RCC make this quite plain, although the Fifth Marian Dogma has yet to be proclaimed, which will pretty much seal the deal.

Do you have any scriptures to prove your point? it would be useful.

thanks,

JFF

 

[BillMcEnaney]

That is why I pray to the father only as Jesus did.

Bessings,

jff

The Catholic Church teaches that people in heaven don't have the limitations we have on earth.

I have no idea why anyone would believe Mary would need to be all-knowing to hear prayers 24/7. She may remember everything she hears from millions of people. But that doesn't mean she's all-knowing. She doesn't know that date when we'll Christ will return to earth to resurrect our bodies, judge the saved and the damned, send the damned to hell, and take the saved to heaven,

My high school best friend was a Lutheran who prayed only to God the Father and told me that I needed to have a relationship with Christ. But my friend didn't know what you say when I asked him how I can have a relationship with someone I never talk with. If I accept Christ and then ignore him, that's like treating him as a mere tool, not as my divine elder brother who saves me.

I know many people who pray only when they want something. That's how to treat God as a vending machine, You visit a vending machine when you want to buy something from it. I don't go to one because I think it's my friend. It's a mere tool.