Purgatory: Scriptural or not... or worse?

[paul becke]

Very good !

It seems to me, that the absolutely compelling NDEs indicate that Purgatory (for the pedants who agonize over location : 'purgation') extends from close to the periphery of Hell (whether understood to be topographical or qualitative) and the gates (or metaphorically, an outer suburb) of Heaven. It has been suggested that this latter would probably be the Paradise promised that day to the Good Thief. Although God is not bound by his own rules, should he wish to depart from them. It's a mystery we might not understand, until we, ourselves, die.

 

[W2L]

No purgatory for me, im going straight to heaven.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

"Novel - Wikipedia
A novel is a long, fictional narrative which describes intimate human experiences."
Pgrtry: tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of stories/ novels.

(fiction)(deceptive)(oppresive)(death dealing/ pernicious)(not friendly)

 

[Kenny'sID]

It took me five years of reading many NDE accounts ..... and comparing them with other scriptures.......to get over my dogmatic belief in the Soul Sleep doctrine as taught by the Worldwide Church of God.

There are so many verses that can appear like this idea is true...... that it is awfully difficult to come out of this belief.

Honestly, I forgot exactly what it was but seems I had words with people here who pushed it and it left a very sour taste in my mouth...just didn't work for me.

 

[Albion]

Your statement is a denial of the covenant principle of hierarchy, or Church authority and leadership. Of course, not a surprising statement from one who belongs to a congregation which defied the authority of Rome over them.

Actually, it has nothing to do with it. There are other verses that deal with that matter. This one, despite being quoted a lot, isn't one of them.

 

[sdowney717]

QUOTE="Light of the East,"]

There is no purgatory.

This is a Roman Catholic false doctrine and is not supported by scripture.

When you die you had better be fessed up and right with God through Jesus and His cross His blood and His sacrifice.

The simplicity of the gospel is just that.

[/QUOTE
TRUTH. YES. TRUE. (NO, no problem with that: GOD'S WORD VERIFIED)

A concept of a lasting purgatory where people work off their sins is antichrist doctrine.
For the believer scripture teaches absent from the body, PRESENT with the Lord Jesus, and He is not in purgatory.

 

[Albion]

Are you indicating that it doesn't, when it explicitly does?

I'm saying that even if we agree that it speaks of something that relates to the afterlife, it's far from being a proof of the existence of a Purgatory.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Actually, it has nothing to do with it. There are other verses that deal with that matter. This one, despite being quoted a lot, isn't one of them.

Correct, and another thing also: as people are swayed by visions and dreams and such that are contrary to SCRIPTURE,
but "feels so good" it must be RIGHT!? no.

Scripture is true, though all mankind be liars....

 

[sdowney717]

2 Corinthians 5:1-9New King James Version (NKJV)
Assurance of the Resurrection
5 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

The Judgment Seat of Christ
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.

 

[Albion]

That could be said about merely being born !!!!!

I just don't see how that is so.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'm saying that even if we agree that it speaks of something that relates to the afterlife, it's far from being a proof of the existence of a Purgatory.

Billions of the world's religious people believe in afterlife,
but
don't know JESUS - never learned the truth,
so
where did their beliefs come from ? The devil. All the world is and has been deceived by the devil, as
GOD says in GOD'S WORD..

So why then, why go to those people of the world, under the devil, to get (as if possible)
a description of any afterlife ?

Why not instead do what GOD says? Go to SCRIPTURE, Go to GOD in prayer, and renounce the pagan beliefs as
others who got saved did.

Follow JESUS to LIFE and AFTERLIFE -

the pagan religions lead to death, only to death.

 

[PropheticTimes]

Is ‘purgatory’ Biblical?

Jesus spoke very clearly of only two choices in the afterlife in Luke 16:19-31. There we find that a certain rich man had died as an unbeliever and was "in torment" (Luke 16:23). Jesus made it clear that the afterlife offers two options, and that both heaven and hell are eternal.

Matthew 7:13-14 also notes, "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." Again, only two options are provided. There is no third option.

Purgatory is an extra-biblical teaching developed beyond what Jesus and the apostles presented in the Bible. As such, it lacks biblical authority and is to be rejected. While the idea of a "middle ground" may find historical support in other places or seem sensible to many, the fact is that it is not supported by the Bible—the very book that forms the basis for Christian belief. Believers are not called to offer prayers or works on behalf of the dead. The dead's eternity has already been decided. Instead, we must seek to grow in Christ and share Him with others.

Is praying to ‘canonized saints’ Biblical?

The Greek word for saints is an interesting one. It is the word “hagios” and means “most holy thing” so a saint is a holy person but wait, aren’t all men sinners, even after they are saved? Yes, that’s true but God sees us as having Jesus own righteousness because Christ became sin for us so that when the Father now sees us, He sees us as having the righteousness of Jesus Christ (2 Cor 5:21). A saint is anyone who has been saved and then they are set apart for holy use.

Praying to Mary and other dead saints is not biblical and praying to anyone other than God is idolatry. Nowhere in Scripture does it say pray to dead saints. Nowhere in Scripture does it say ask dead saints to pray for you. Those who have died in the Lord have "ceased from their labor." They have already "finished the race." (see Rev 14:13 and 2 Tim 4:7). Jesus told us clearly who can pray with us. He said in Matthew 18:19, "Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven." Notice the important clause "on earth." The people who pray together must be "on earth." This definitely rules out those who have left this earth.

When Jesus taught the disciples to pray, He never encourages the disciples to ask Abraham or Moses or Noah to pray for them. Asking the deceased to pray for us is unheard of in the Bible, and contradicts the teaching of the Bible.

Timothy 2:5 There is one God. There is also one mediator between God and human beings—a human, the Messiah Jesus.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

Philippians 4:6-7 - Be careful for nothing; but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Again, only two options are provided. There is no third option.

IN the BIBLE, correct.

The devil offers many other options.

 

[PollyJetix]

One could almost say that purgatory is the Catholic version of Once Saved, Always Saved.
Only instead of Christ carrying ALL of our sins on the cross,
The wayward backslider himself instead has to pay for some of them.

You can't have it both ways.
Either Christ himself died for all our sin, or else He didn't.
Either the blood cleanses completely, or else it doesn't.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Oh boy.


I'll be blunt. This is all wildly off-base from what Catholics believe. Allow me to explain why. First, Purgatory.

Purgatory does not add to what was accomplished on the Cross, nor does it bypass the Cross. It is only possible through the Cross. The existence of Purgatory, really, is self-evident. Nothing that is unclean shall enter the Kingdom of God (Rev 21:27). I dare say that none of us will be wholly clean when we die. And no "covering" of our sins can deceive God. Shall we suppose that God can ignore sins? By no means! Rather, we must be purified. One might even say our sins must be purged from us. Purgatory is the place of this purification.

As far as Scripture goes, first we have Second Maccabees. Though you may not recognize this work's canonicity as the Catholic and Orthodox churches do, it is a historical text, from which we can learn things about ancient Jewish practice. In 2nd Maccabees, specifically Chapter 12, vss 39-46, Judas Maccabeus and his soldiers discover fallen Israelites who were carrying tokens of a pagan god under their tunics, which would be sinful. Judas and his companions conclude these men died because of their sin, and then pray for the dead men to be forgiven. He also sets up a "sin collection" to make atonement for their sins. Thus, we see clearly that the Jews believed that the sins of the dead could be forgiven after death. Jesus never speaks on this, true, but he never explicitly condemns it, even when he condemns other practices of empty piety.

Secondly in support of Purgatory, Jesus speaks in the Sermon on the Mount about making peace with your enemies. In Mt 5:25-26, He says to make peace, lest you be thrown into prison. Is this talking about temporal prison? Unlikely. Is it talking about Hell? Also unlikely, considering He adds that even if you end up in this prison, you can leave—after you've paid the last penny. Also pointing to a supernatural understanding of "prison" is that the Greek work, phulake, is also used in the First Epistle of Peter to describe where Jesus went after His death.

Finally, we have First Corinthians and the Trial by Fire (1Cor 3:11-15). This is obviously speaking about the judgement more particularly, but notice that even the one whose work is lost, is himself saved. That is Purgatory at its essence: a painful process that ultimately saves us. But again, it only works by the Cross.

Now, as for canonized saints...of course, we are all "saints" in a sense. Canonization is merely saying that this person is, beyond a shadow of a doubt, in Heaven, and moreover that they are a good model of Christian living. It doesn't mean that your grandmother is not in heaven. It just means that we don't have explicit confirmation, which nowadays comes through miracles attributed to the saint's intercession.

One is made clean by the finished work of the cross, the blood of Jesus. End of story.

if you are unlean, you are not covered by the blood of Jesus. That is what makes a person unlclean.

Purgatory is and was a great way to generate money. You have to pay to have the church pray for your loved ones time to get out of purgatory. Purgatory does indeed nullify the cross entirely. If you just have to do time in purgatory then why ever accept Jesus as savior? If all you have to do is spend time. What determines the difference between who goes to purgatory vs who goes to hell? Frankly it is blasphemous to the cross and to our Lord and Savior and the work of the cross and the resurrection.

 

[Albion]

One could almost say that purgatory is the Catholic version of Once Saved, Always Saved.
Only instead of Christ carrying ALL of our sins on the cross,
The wayward backslider himself instead has to pay for some of them.

In a way, that's true. However, Purgatory is more than that. According to the teaching about Purgatory, you also have to pay for sins already forgiven, just because you committed them in the first place.

 

[Kenny'sID]

VER GUD ! .... The TRUTH , seek the TRUTH, and you shall KNOW,
not wonder,
not guess,
not be in doubt,
KNOW THE TRUTH, and the TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE.
(not acceptable to worldly or carnal or deceived mankind,btw)

THE ANSWER(pm for key) to your quest, Kenny, is CLEAR and PERFECT in BIBLE, and not
corrupted* from greek myths or persia or babylong*.

*(sic) (sick) (society)(mankind) (untruthful)(deceptive)(men)

I agree, we need to be careful, but as I pointed out in another post, not everyone deceives by design. Some do, it is true, or they refuse to look into what they are teaching if called on it's authenticity, and continue teaching the wrong thing out of sheer stubbornness (might have done that myself before. However, there are those that only want the truth, but make honest mistakes.

Even those that teach false doctrine out of stubbornness, as someone already mentioned on this thread, it's hard to pull away from things we always believed were true. We're talking the most serious subjects there are here, eternity, things that people are very passionate about, as they should be.

So all I'm saying there is leave plenty of room for understanding of the variables before we jump the gun, then when worse comes to worse, there may come a time to jump.

 

[Albion]

Purgatory does indeed nullify the cross entirely. If you just have to do time in purgatory then why ever accept Jesus as savior? If all you have to do is spend time.

Because without Christ you get Hell, not Purgatory.

What determines the difference between who goes to purgatory vs who goes to hell?

Everyone who has ever committed a mortal sin goes to Purgatory (in theory) unless it has never been repented of and forgiven. In that case, it's Hell, not Purgatory.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

The way that I see this is like a school test. You are in the class, we are all in the class. There is a passing mark of 50%. To achieve the minimum mark, all you have to do is accept Christ as for who He is and His free gift of salvation.... accepting your heart to be sinful and falling short of what is necessary for 50%. Asking for forgiveness and turning your heart to the ways of God.

After that, your faith works will earn you crowns and awards. Through the help of the Holy Spirit, you will do great things on this earth and bring others to Christ, care for the poor, sick and underprivileged.... etc. These things you do will be judged upon your death.

This trial by fire will leave some with the basic passing grade of 50%. In by the skin of your teeth so to speak. Others will be given crowns and honors for their works by faith..

If you did not get the basic 50% for belief in Christ and acceptance of who He was and what He stood for... You never go beyond 0%.....

So, your options are 0%, no matter what you do in your mind to think you are such a great person. You may do great things but Christ will say "I never knew you"

Or, 50% plus...where you have acknowledged God and are saved.

There is no need to and no ability on my part or yours to earn anything toward salvation. It is way beyond our ability to do anything that would justify payment for our sins.

If this were so, then the whole of the gospel was unnecessary and we could have all just spent an allotted time in some jail in the afterlife until we earned our freedom.

Totally unbiblical and a fabrication of those who have a worldly outlook of God's judgement.

What kind of teaching is this? One is either 100% saved or 0% saved. All crowns will be cast at the feet of the Lord. You are not going to be walking around heaven with crowns, there is one KING, Jesus. Works are the result of a changed heart and the working of the Holy Spirit within the believer, they are not a means to earning points and if anyone thinks feeding the poor is getting crowns for them to look good in heaven they may find out how prideful and silly that notion is one day when they stand before a Holy GOD.

 

[W2L]

So how much money does it take to save my loved ones from purgatory?