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Purgatory/Gehenna

Albion

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Hi, Fide. Personally, I like that you made the effort to give readers a thoughtful response to the idea that you believe what you do, only because you have decided to enroll in a church body that insists that you do so.

I have to say, however, that your post only tended to confirm that perception, not dispel it.

And if, in addition, the idea is that that unity is important...therefore we ought to join the denomination that has suffered the most significant splits and schisms of all Christian denominations...well, that approach just defies logic. Or so it seems to me.
 
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fide

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Hi, Fide. Personally, I like that you made the effort to give readers a thoughtful response to the idea that you believe what you do, only because you have decided to enroll in a church body that insists that you do so.

I have to say, however, that your post only tended to confirm that perception, not dispel it.

And if, in addition, the idea is that that unity is important...therefore we ought to join the denomination that has suffered the most significant splits and schisms of all Christian denominations...well, that approach just defies logic. Or so it seems to me.

Does your "logic" prefer that one "enroll in a church body" that is so unnecessary and optional that it insists you do as you please? Truth does not volunteer to be optional, or unnecessary. Jesus did not die for the individual's right to personally interpret God's revealed Truth. I want the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth!

You rely on human logic all you want - if your logic is not undergirded with that which is eternal, rock-solid and true absolutely, it will be undergirded with sand and mud, political correctness, and the self-love of man.
 
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Albion

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Does your "logic" prefer that one "enroll in a church body" that is so unnecessary and optional that it insists you do as you please?

I'd say "no." That doesn't mean that I don't smile when I encounter strawman arguments like that one, however. ;)

Jesus did not die for the individual's right to personally interpret God's revealed Truth. I want the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth!
We agree on that.
 
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Major1

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Thank you for this invitation and opening to be honest!

Yes, let's do be honest: I am not a life-long Catholic - I am a "revert", having left the Church in early adulthood, because like many in young adulthood, I knew more than anyone else in the known world. I knew better than to even believe in God. So I left the Church as soon as I got out of the house, and into college. First it was agnosticism, then atheism. After graduation I was working as a research engineer, when I discovered non-theistic humanism - this is where the journey home began, actually. To make the long story short, I became a "born-again evangelical", sola-scriptura of course, having encountered Jesus and a whole new life in His Word, Holy Scripture.

To shorten that phase of my life, let me merely say that Scripture "alone" - illuminated by the Holy Spirit without doubt - convicted me that "find the church that you like best" was an ugly creation of sinful men, was not God's will at all. He said clearly (Jn 17) that His will was that all who were His should be ONE, and for very important reason: that the world can come to believe! READ this, brother:
John 17:20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
John 17:21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Division among Christians is the cause of disbelief in the world! The world cannot convert, when Christians cannot even agree among themselves!

Yes, I was convicted. In my youthful arrogance I had left the Church that I saw filled with errors and emptiness, to become not part of any solution, but to become part of the problem! "Denominations" were NOT the creation of God, who wants ONE Church. I knew two things, with no doubt:
1) I needed to return to the Catholic Church - His original created ecclesia;
2) I needed to really learn what this Church believes and teaches, and why - not merely my opinions, but the truth: what does the Church believe, and teach.

So I did. I returned, but cautiously. I returned to full-time student life in a Catholic university, to study and to learn about this Church, this Faith that I rejected in almost complete ignorance as a young "adult" (in years, if not in wisdom).
  • That was now some decades ago. I did learn; I did mature; I did grow. I can say with confidence, the Catholic Church is the one Church of divine intention and will. There are problems in the Church - as there are in any group of men anywhere - namely, sin - but no error.
  • Not all in the one Church are holy saints - but some are.
  • There is no error in what the Church formally teaches and believes. It all fits together, into one consistent whole, of origin that is too beautiful to even be possible for men to fabricate or even "touch up!" This is of God.
  • The moral teachings of the Church are true, all true.
  • The Sacraments truly communicate holy divine grace - which is a share in the divine life.
  • The Holy Spirit is truly here, guiding all who seek the fullness of divine Truth, leading seekers into the fullness of prayer: intomate personal communion with God the Holy Trinity.
I can only say to you.......That is your choice.

Myself, having been brought up in a Pentecostal environment, I also ran away from it as fast as I could when age allowed me to do so.

However, there was something planted in my soul when I was very young and
As I grew I learned how wrong religion is as it ADDED to the Scriptures'.

I became a Bible believer instead of a Church believer. I am NOT against church per se, I am just against what some Church denominations teach which is not found in the Word of God, and the biggest of those offenders is the Catholic church.

You are welcome to believe as you wish as it is YOURE choice and I do not argue that with anyone. All I expect is the same kind of respect for my choices which do not agree with yours.

Some here can debate those differences, but not many. Most in time become angry and combative when they see that what they thought is NOT what is reality according to the Bible. Allow me to illustrate that for you as you just said................

"I can say with confidence, the Catholic Church is the one Church of divine intention and will."

Now that is of course YOUR own opinion and has not basis of Biblical fact. You see, the Roman Catholic Church is a body with two heads! It claims Jesus is its head in Heaven and the Pope is its head on earth. The “college of cardinals” elects the Pope to office. Under the cardinals are the archbishops, bishops, priests, monks, nuns, and finally “the laity”. Clearly, the organization of the Roman Catholic Church proves it is not the church of the Bible.

BUT.....just as you have an opinion, so do I and others and I for one base my comments in what the Bible says and YOU as a Catholic base your comments on what the RCC tells you.

Then again, just to illustrate you said................
"Not all in the one Church are holy saints - but some are."

Again, that is your opinion which is rooted in the RCC dogma. The Bible actually says that ALL born again believers are in fact SAINTS.

Romans 1:7..........
"To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints......".

1 Corth. 1:2......
" to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints".

Ephesians 1:1...
"To the saints who are in Ephesus".

The Bible declares that born again believers are Saints and they do not have to die to be declared one by the RCC.

Then you said..........
"The moral teachings of the Church are true, all true."

But if Morality is not based upon the Word of God then it is just wishful thinking.
Morality is the application of God’s laws regarding a person’s private and public behavior. In his or her seeking to live a moral life, a Christian tries to obey the rules for his or her personal behavior that have been decreed by God and recorded in the Bible as acceptable.

Then you said...................
"The Sacraments truly communicate holy divine grace."

I know you have to believe that because it is RCC doctrine and I am happy for you.
However, the whole idea of "sacraments" that convey saving grace upon people is unbiblical.

Two of the main sacraments specifically are said by the Roman Catholic Church to be necessary in order to gain eternal life: baptism and communion. Because of the Roman Catholic Church belief that baptism is required for salvation, Catholics maintain that it is important to baptize infants. But nowhere in Scripture can you find even a single example or command to do so.

Now PLEASE do not accept that! YOU LOOK IT UP and post those Scriptures for ALL of us and I will be the 1st to apologize to you.

Some Roman Catholics use Acts 16:33 as a possible example, because it states that the Philippian jailor "and his family" were baptized. But, taking this verse in context, we note two things:

1). When the jailor asked Paul what he must do to be saved, Paul did NOT say, "Believe on Jesus and be baptized and take communion.

2). We see that the "family" could not have included infants or toddlers, as it states in verse 34 that the jailor had "believed in God with all his household." Infants and toddlers cannot exercise faith in God in such a fashion.

So, you can see that we can disagree on things and still be civil.
 
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Albion

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"I can say with confidence, the Catholic Church is the one Church of divine intention and will."

Now that is of course YOUR own opinion....

Quite obviously, what you replied is correct to say. Some people like to discuss issues here and others insist upon testifying to what they believe. The latter kind of posting doesn't offer much of any opportunity for discussion, does it? OK, he believes X. So what are we readers supposed to do with that, especially since we didn't ask for such testimony in the first place! :)
 
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Major1

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Does your "logic" prefer that one "enroll in a church body" that is so unnecessary and optional that it insists you do as you please? Truth does not volunteer to be optional, or unnecessary. Jesus did not die for the individual's right to personally interpret God's revealed Truth. I want the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth!

You rely on human logic all you want - if your logic is not undergirded with that which is eternal, rock-solid and true absolutely, it will be undergirded with sand and mud, political correctness, and the self-love of man.

And I think that you have just hit upon the real division between Catholics and Protestants.

YOU just said............
"I want the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth".

Just as Jack Nicholson said to Tom Cruise...........
"YOU can not handle the truth"!

You see my dear friend, truth is NOT what YOU or I think that it is. Truth is only what God says that it is.

John 18:37-38...............
"Pilate therefore said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.” Pilate said to Him, “What is truth?” And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews, and said to them, “I find no guilt in Him”.

PLEASE read the Scriptures here and understand that why Pilate’s response is distressing. He was serving as the judge who was to pass judgment on our Lord.

Judgment must be according to truth: Zechariah 8:16 says.............
“‘These are the things which you should do: speak the truth to one another; judge with truth and judgment for peace in your gates’”.

Consider your comment, “I want the Truth". “What is truth?”
That in itself indicates cynicism. Just as Pilate seems to doubt that one can know the truth or even that truth exists. Truth for Pilate was whatever He wished to believe is true.

When we, anyone rejects the Bible which is the Word of God and is the Truth of God then they will believe whatever they wish truth to be. Hence the Catholic doctrine of TRADITIONS.

Relativism has now replaced the absolutism which was rooted in confidence concerning our ability to know the truth from the Scriptures. This relativism is especially evident in the realm Religious teachings and TRADITIONS where the thoughts and ideas and dogmas of men have replaced the TRUTH found only in the Scriptures.

As a result we have men who believe that Mary was sinless, a perpetual virgin and was assumed into heaven when not one single Bible verse can be found to confirm such things.
 
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fide

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.......

You see my dear friend, truth is NOT what YOU or I think that it is. Truth is only what God says that it is.

.......

Catholics and Protestants agree with that: "truth is NOT what YOU or I think that it is. Truth is only what God says that it is."

Our difference is, you say that what God says Truth is, is limited to what I (that is, you) can discern from reading Holy Scripture.

Catholics say that such a criterion for Truth is not established in the Bible! The presumption of "sola scriptura" in other words is self-contradicted. Nowhere in Scripture will you find an affirmation that all revealed Truth is contained in and limited to what has been written and collected in your Bible.

In fact, your Bible - that is, the collection of books in your Bible, is nowhere listed in any book in the Bible. The Table of Contents in your Bible, in other words, was assembled and decided upon by men - none of whom claim to be inspired by God in the same sense that they claim that the individual books of the Bible are inspired by God: Genesis, Matthew, Leviticus, Paul, Luke, etc.

Again, in other words, uninspired men decided which books were inspired by God, and are "God's Word", and which books are not inspired. Which books belong in the Bible and which do not? That answer cannot be found in the Bible! So where does the "sola scriptura" assumption come from - that the Bible is the written Word of God, and that if it is not in the Bible it is not divine revelation? The answer is, "sola scriptura" is an unwritten unprovable presumption - it is a human tradition: the very thing you folks charge us Catholics with believing!

The foundation of protestantism - sola scriptura - is an unprovable human oral tradition, and it is false. If you want to believe it by faith, that is your decision to do so. But at least admit that that is not solid rock on which you are standing. It is an assumption, held by faith that is NOT established in Scripture alone.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Catholics and Protestants agree with that: "truth is NOT what YOU or I think that it is. Truth is only what God says that it is."

Our difference is, you say that what God says Truth is, is limited to what I (that is, you) can discern from reading Holy Scripture.

Catholics say that such a criterion for Truth is not established in the Bible! The presumption of "sola scriptura" in other words is self-contradicted. Nowhere in Scripture will you find an affirmation that all revealed Truth is contained to and limited to what has been written and collected in your Bible.

In fact, your Bible - that is, the collection of books in your Bible, is nowhere listed in any book in the Bible. The Table of Contents in your Bible, in other words, was assembled and decided upon by men - none of whom claim to be inspired by God in the same sense that they claim that the individual books of the Bible are inspired by God: Genesis, Matthew, Leviticus, Paul, Luke, etc.

Again, in other words, uninspired men decided which books were inspired by God, and are "God's Word", and which books are not inspired. Which books belong in the Bible and which do not? That answer cannot be found in the Bible! So where does the "sola scriptura" assumption come from - that the Bible is the written Word of God, and that if it is not in the Bible it is not divine revelation? The answer is, "sola scriptura" is an unwritten unprovable presumption - it is a human tradition: the very thing you folks charge us Catholics with believing!

The foundation of protestantism - sola scriptura - is an unprovable human oral tradition, and it is false. If you want to believe it by faith, that is your decision to do so. But at least admit that that is not solid rock on which you are standing. It is an assumption, held by faith that is NOT established in Scripture alone.

The difficulty of Catholicism is that it has opened an enormous can of worms when it opens the door to extra-biblical revelation. The result over time has been the evolution of a religious structure which contains dogmas and doctrines not commonly held by any other branch of Christianity, leaving Catholicism, by necessity, to claim itself as the sole arbiter of Truth.
 
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fide

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The difficulty of Catholicism is that it has opened an enormous can of worms when it opens the door to extra-biblical revelation. The result over time has been the evolution of a religious structure which contains dogmas and doctrines not commonly held by any other branch of Christianity, leaving Catholicism, by necessity, to claim itself as the sole arbiter of Truth.

Hello b - may I call you that, or do you prefer your full name? (just playing).

To return to the serious: The Church did not open any can of worms - she is only living in obedience to faith - to Faith! By faith we believe that Jesus said and meant this:
Jn 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

Read this one verse carefully, please. It is consistent with the rest of written Scripture, which itself calls for a living continuous act of faith! If you believe His promise(s) of a living, abiding, teaching, leading and guiding Holy Spirit in His Church, then you see that such obedience to Him is no "can of worms", it is Christianity itself. It is the obedient listening and following of discipleship.

The Holy Spirit is NOT "extra-biblical"! "Sola-scriptura" - that forbids the Holy Spirit of God to dare illuminate divine revelation with deeper insights into the Gospel - is not even "intra-biblical"! Jn 16:13, as a particularly powerful teaching, is very much IN the Bible.

Yes, there are many, many smaller groups of Christians, who claim superior understanding and fidelity. They all profess the one Christ, they all profess the gospel truth, they all differ from one another in interpretations ranging from the trivial to the crucial, they all agree that the Catholic Church is wrong. Such credentials seem very thin to me, seeing that before the 1500's, Christianity was very, very different from what has happened to it since the 1500's. That is, protestantism is very obviously a modernist innovation - not much of a foundation, IMHO - and the fruit of protestantism is denominationalism: many churches, many gospels, "attend the church of your choice." Not exactly a "Gospel" teaching, in which we read,
Eph 4:3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Hello b - may I call you that, or do you prefer your full name? (just playing).

To return to the serious: The Church did not open any can of worms - she is only living in obedience to faith - to Faith! By faith we believe that Jesus said and meant this:
Jn 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

Read this one verse carefully, please. It is consistent with the rest of written Scripture, which itself calls for a living continuous act of faith! If you believe His promise(s) of a living, abiding, teaching, leading and guiding Holy Spirit in His Church, then you see that such obedience to Him is no "can of worms", it is Christianity itself. It is the obedient listening and following of discipleship.

The Holy Spirit is NOT "extra-biblical"! "Sola-scriptura" - that forbids the Holy Spirit of God to dare illuminate divine revelation with deeper insights into the Gospel - is not even "intra-biblical"! Jn 16:13, as a particularly powerful teaching, is very much IN the Bible.

Yes, there are many, many smaller groups of Christians, who claim superior understanding and fidelity. They all profess the one Christ, they all profess the gospel truth, they all differ from one another in interpretations ranging from the trivial to the crucial, they all agree that the Catholic Church is wrong. Such credentials seem very thin to me, seeing that before the 1500's, Christianity was very, very different from what has happened to it since the 1500's. That is, protestantism is very obviously a modernist innovation - not much of a foundation, IMHO - and the fruit of protestantism is denominationalism: many churches, many gospels, "attend the church of your choice." Not exactly a "Gospel" teaching, in which we read,
Eph 4:3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

I have been called far worse things than b, and enjoy that as well as the full name.

Now, the question is where does one places one's faith? For you and all other Catholics it is ultimately in the Catholic Church as being God's presence on the earth and, more specifically, the Pope as the Vicar of Christ. An outsider such as myself can well ask what is the origin of this belief and is it truly valid. The origin for this belief is the Catholic Church itself. To be sure, it sources this belief in outside material, such as the few verses in the Bible which it stretches and twists to conform to this belief, but ultimately the Catholic Church claims to be the ultimate arbiter of Truth because it claims to be such.

Is this valid? Well, if I claim to be Marie Antoinette incarnate, although other objective evidence says otherwise (such as the fact that I am in a male body) then it becomes a matter of pure faith if others wish to believe my claim and they must deny the objective evidence.

For all of the other branches of Christianity the objective evidence is overwhelming that the Catholic Church's claims are implausible and cannot be embraced with a clear conscience.
 
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Fidelibus

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Before my converting to the Catholic Church after years of "church shopping" various Protestant Churches and Non-Denominational/bible only sects, I too didn't believe in a state other than Heaven or Hell. I also must admit during my conversion, the belief of Purgatory was difficult for me to understand until a very good friend of mine that was my sponsor during my RCIA classes and my conversion gave me some questions to ponder on that led me to my belief of Purgatory. I would like to ask these same questions of the no Purgatory posters, and to hear their thoughts on them. I probably wont be able to ask them word for word, but will do my best that memory will allow.

1. Do you beleive purification can be completed on earth?

2. Is there forgiveness after death? Or put another way, can there be forgiveness in heaven or in hell?

3. Do you beleive there could be suffering in heaven or compassion in hell?

4. In Lk. 12:47-48 it says when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. Do you beleive these light beatings could be taking place in heaven? Or is it possible to live with the Master in hell?

5. In Rev. 21:4 it says after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth, God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain. Do you beleive there could be morning or pain in heaven? Or the possibility God could wipe away tears in hell?

6. Are those in heaven perfect, and could those in hell still be made perfect?

7. Is there a need for mercy in heaven, and can mercy be given in hell?

8. In Phil. 2:10 it say's every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and under the earth. Do you beleive Satan will allow every knee to bend to Jesus in hell?


These are a few that come to mind. Any and all responces will be greatly appreciated.
 
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Albion

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Before my converting to the Catholic Church after years of "church shopping" various Protestant Churches and Non-Denominational/bible only sects, I too didn't believe in a state other than Heaven or Hell. I also must admit during my conversion, the belief of Purgatory was difficult for me to understand until a very good friend of mine that was my sponsor during my RCIA classes and my conversion gave me some questions to ponder on that led me to my belief of Purgatory. I would like to ask these same questions of the no Purgatory posters, and to hear their thoughts on them.
Hi. I started to answer your questions, in part because I like quizzes and puzzles. But really, we simply cannot make a doctrine out of a rationalization. Either there is a Purgatory or there is not one, and either Scripture or (for the benefit of Catholics) Tradition must show that there is one.

We cannot just rationalize that it would make sense if God had something like this in mind. Worse, it's not "Purgatory" even if all the questions you're asking were answered in the way you would answer. At best you'd be strengthening the argument that something that kinda finishes the process of getting one ready for Heaven probably takes place after death. THAT IS NOT a proof of "Purgatory."
 
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fide

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I have been called far worse things than b, and enjoy that as well as the full name.

Now, the question is where does one places one's faith? For you and all other Catholics it is ultimately in the Catholic Church as being God's presence on the earth and, more specifically, the Pope as the Vicar of Christ. An outsider such as myself can well ask what is the origin of this belief and is it truly valid. The origin for this belief is the Catholic Church itself. To be sure, it sources this belief in outside material, such as the few verses in the Bible which it stretches and twists to conform to this belief, but ultimately the Catholic Church claims to be the ultimate arbiter of Truth because it claims to be such.

Is this valid? Well, if I claim to be Marie Antoinette incarnate, although other objective evidence says otherwise (such as the fact that I am in a male body) then it becomes a matter of pure faith if others wish to believe my claim and they must deny the objective evidence.

For all of the other branches of Christianity the objective evidence is overwhelming that the Catholic Church's claims are implausible and cannot be embraced with a clear conscience.

We agree the issue here is faith. But I would say it this way - it is not that "we place our faith" anywhere. We can make a decision to "believe" this or that - but a human decision is not supernatural faith, the gift from God that brings life to the soul. We can believe an argument, and assess it on what we trust at the moment, but to assent to an argument is not supernatural faith - it is a human act of reasoning, a human "work".

Supernatural faith is a gift from God, enabled by His gift of holy grace. Thus, "you are saved by grace, through faith, not because of works lest any man should boast."

Did you "chose" to believe that the Bible is the written Word of God? If you did, are you not superior to the Bible? It seems so, since then, you believe beforehand that you can make such a decision about what is of God and what is not.

I suspect that you "just believed" the Bible not because you "just decided to", but because God opened your eyes and heart and mind to "see" - to "know" - that the Bible is of Him. And in Faith you stand on that foundation, Holy Scripture.

I did too, and I do today as well. Scripture is the written Word of God. And after some years of living in and on that faith, God gave me a second blessing, built upon the first: He showed me that His one Church, where I ought to be, was His Catholic Church. And so I came to believe, and trust in, this Church along with Holy Scripture. Both are of God.

It is all about faith.
 
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bbbbbbb

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We agree the issue here is faith. But I would say it this way - it is not that "we place our faith" anywhere. We can make a decision to "believe" this or that - but a human decision is not supernatural faith, the gift from God that brings life to the soul. We can believe an argument, and assess it on what we trust at the moment, but to assent to an argument is not supernatural faith - it is a human act of reasoning, a human "work".

Supernatural faith is a gift from God, enabled by His gift of holy grace. Thus, "you are saved by grace, through faith, not because of works lest any man should boast."

Did you "chose" to believe that the Bible is the written Word of God? If you did, are you not superior to the Bible? It seems so, since then, you believe beforehand that you can make such a decision about what is of God and what is not.

I suspect that you "just believed" the Bible not because you "just decided to", but because God opened your eyes and heart and mind to "see" - to "know" - that the Bible is of Him. And in Faith you stand on that foundation, Holy Scripture.

I did too, and I do today as well. Scripture is the written Word of God. And after some years of living in and on that faith, God gave me a second blessing, built upon the first: He showed me that His one Church, where I ought to be, was His Catholic Church. And so I came to believe, and trust in, this Church along with Holy Scripture. Both are of God.

It is all about faith.

I agree it is all about faith, but a faith which does not engage the mind is no faith at all. Everyone on earth has faith, but very few have faith in Jesus Christ.
 
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fide

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I agree it is all about faith, but a faith which does not engage the mind is no faith at all. Everyone on earth has faith, but very few have faith in Jesus Christ.

Faith must "engage" the mind, but salvation is not attained by natural logic or mere human reasoning, by through supernatural and holy faith.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Faith must "engage" the mind, but salvation is not attained by natural logic or mere human reasoning, by through supernatural and holy faith.

The question then is the focus of the faith. The focus of an atheists faith is that there is no god. The focus of a Muslim's faith is not necessarily Allah, but Mohammed. Hindus have a range of foci for their faith, having a vast pantheon of gods from which to choose.

Without the Church a Catholic lacks a clear focus for his faith, would you not agree?
 
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fide

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The question then is the focus of the faith. The focus of an atheists faith is that there is no god. The focus of a Muslim's faith is not necessarily Allah, but Mohammed. Hindus have a range of foci for their faith, having a vast pantheon of gods from which to choose.

Without the Church a Catholic lacks a clear focus for his faith, would you not agree?

Well, I would say - No, it is not the "focus" of the faith - the question is the source - or the Source - of the faith. The source - or the Source - determines its focus and its substance (or its Substance). There is only one God. Apart from Him can be misunderstandings, innocent errors, outright stubborn errors, or even idolatries.
 
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Fidelibus

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Either there is a Purgatory or there is not one, and either Scripture or (for the benefit of Catholics) Tradition must show that there is one.

Thank you Albion for your response.

So to understand you correctly, is it your belief that Scripture is explicit in regards to Heaven and Hell, but not so when it comes to Purgatory? In other words, there is nothing other than Heaven or Hell.

Peace
 
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Albion

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Thank you Albion for your response.

So to understand you correctly, is it your belief that Scripture is explicit in regards to Heaven and Hell, but not so when it comes to Purgatory? In other words, there is nothing other than Heaven or Hell.

Peace
We do not know everything about Heaven and Hell, but we are given--in Scripture--to know what will get you to one or the other. And what we do not know is basically left that way by theologians. That is to say, if Hell is a mental torture rather than burning in fire...the well-informed churchman will say these details don't change the essentials and that we just are not given by God to know everything about them in this life.

But when we turn to the idea of Purgatory, the Biblical hints are extremely sketchy and questionable, but from that the Medieval Catholic Church fashioned an extremely detailed explanation of the "place" and made it a doctrine.

So what states exist in the afterlife, judging from Scripture? Yes, Heaven and Hell. The Catholic Church once taught that there was a Limbo for unbaptized babies who had died, but that's now been shelved. The Church's explanation is that it was just conjecture and, anyway, it wasn't made into a must-believe doctrine anyway.

Then there's Abraham's Bosom or Paradise which Jesus is believed to have visited after his crucifixion. It was for the otherwise righteous who had died prior to the coming of the Savior. But that was temporary, has no meaning now, and is considered to be "vacant."

So, yes, there's Heaven and Hell.
 
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fide

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Hi. I started to answer your questions, in part because I like quizzes and puzzles. But really, we simply cannot make a doctrine out of a rationalization. Either there is a Purgatory or there is not one, and either Scripture or (for the benefit of Catholics) Tradition must show that there is one.

We cannot just rationalize that it would make sense if God had something like this in mind. Worse, it's not "Purgatory" even if all the questions you're asking were answered in the way you would answer. At best you'd be strengthening the argument that something that kinda finishes the process of getting one ready for Heaven probably takes place after death. THAT IS NOT a proof of "Purgatory."

Is "God said so" a proof of something, or is the only kind of proof that is acceptable to a non-Catholic, only whatever criterion of Truth that the non-Catholic holds to? So, if and only if the non-Catholic can say, "OK - this paper I just read has convinced me personally, individually that there is a purgatory. Therefore I will accept it as true."

In other words, what could be "proof of 'Purgatory'" for you?
 
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