Purgatory/Gehenna

[bbbbbbb]

Well, I would say - No, it is not the "focus" of the faith - the question is the source - or the Source - of the faith. The source - or the Source - determines its focus and its substance (or its Substance). There is only one God. Apart from Him can be misunderstandings, innocent errors, outright stubborn errors, or even idolatries.

What is the Source of your faith? In my personal interactions with Catholics most would say that God, of course, is the Source, but is mediated through the Church such that the doctrinal content for my friends never varies from anything the Catholic Church teaches.

 

[fide]

What is the Source of your faith? In my personal interactions with Catholics most would say that God, of course, is the Source, but is mediated through the Church such that the doctrinal content for my friends never varies from anything the Catholic Church teaches.

The Source of faith itself ("believing") is divine grace, the gift of God. The "content" of faith (what we believe) for a ("faithful") Catholic, is perfectly aligned and coherent with the Faith of the whole Church. We believe in Christ, and therefore we believe that His Church is true.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Source of faith itself ("believing") is divine grace, the gift of God. The "content" of faith (what we believe) for a ("faithful") Catholic, is perfectly aligned and coherent with the Faith of the whole Church. We believe in Christ, and therefore we believe that His Church is true.

Of course, that is precisely the response of a faithful Catholic. The problem, however, is that in the Catholic world the "whole Church" consists only of the Roman Catholic Church and ignores non-Catholic branches of Christianity.

 

[fide]

Of course, that is precisely the response of a faithful Catholic. The problem, however, is that in the Catholic world the "whole Church" consists only of the Roman Catholic Church and ignores non-Catholic branches of Christianity.

Jesus created one and only one Church; He prayed that that Church be one. Denominations are the creations of men. The only important question about "church(es) is this: Which is the true Church?

He promised, "Lo I am with you until the close of the age." The age has not yet closed, so the answer to the question is, the first, original Church is the true Church, and the only true Church. So the answer is found by history.

For my part, I had trouble accepting the historical answer, because I did not accept the theology of the Catholic Church. It took me time, but every question that I had, became resolved. The Catholic Church is the true Church.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Jesus created one and only one Church; He prayed that that Church be one. Denominations are the creations of men. The only important question about "church(es) is this: Which is the true Church?

He promised, "Lo I am with you until the close of the age." The age has not yet closed, so the answer to the question is, the first, original Church is the true Church, and the only true Church. So the answer is found by history.

For my part, I had trouble accepting the historical answer, because I did not accept the theology of the Catholic Church. It took me time, but every question that I had, became resolved. The Catholic Church is the true Church.

Did you consider the historical data of Eastern Orthodoxy in their claims to be THE CHURCH?

 

[Fidelibus]

So what states exist in the afterlife, judging from Scripture? Yes, Heaven and Hell.

Thanks Albion for your insight, it is much appreciated. I am sure you remember when I said on post #91 how during my conversion to the Catholic faith, my RCIA Sponsor gave me some questions to think about when I was struggling with the belief of Purgatory. As I pondered on these questions, along with my doubting the notion of this Catholic Belief of Purgatory, I decided to pray for guidence, and began to cross- reference these questions with Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition in regards to Purgatory. To be honest, I was skeptical, and thought I was wasting my time, since I was still some-what in my sola scriptura frame of mind. But man....... was I ever into the surprise of my life! If you don't mind, I'd like to share what I learned.

For the question, can purification be completed on earth? In Matt. 5:48.... Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Now (and I hope you would agree) to be "perfect" this purification, if not obtained on earth, must be obtained elsewhere. So I had to ask myself....It surely can't be in heaven for to be in heaven everything is perfect, right? And as far as hell....... well if you are there, forget about being perfected, aint going to happen. So where else could it be?....... Purgatory.

For the question, is there forgiveness after death, in heaven or hell? In Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Now by what Jesus is saying, there must be forgiveness after death. When Jesus say's...."In the next" He must be speaking of an afterlife as it does in Mk.10:30, Eph.1:21, Lk. 18:30; 20:35. I knew that forgiveness is not necessary in heaven. I also knew that there is no forgiveness in hell. So the only answer I could come up with is...... that there had to be another state after death, and that state is what the Church and the early Church Fathers for 2,000 years called........ Purgatory.

For the question..... could there be suffering in heaven or compassion in hell? Well, to answer this question, I was led by the Holy Spirit to Lk.16:19-31. In these passages I could see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. So I sat there for a moment scraching my head, and then it dawned on me......there can't be suffering in heaven. As for compassion in hell.......well, compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is this rich man? If he is not suffering in heaven, or receiving compassion in hell, he must be in another state. Purgatory!

For the question, (Lk.12:47-48) could light beatings take place in heaven? Or is it possible to live with the Master in hell? The only logical answer I could come up with was....No, on both counts! The reason being, is because there are no beatings in heaven, and in hell we are forever separated, and will no longer live with the Master. So I could only conclude, there has to be another state......Purgatory!

For space and time constraints, I won't comment on the remaining questions I posted on #91 But will of asked. There are many "No-Purgatory"/ "sola scripturists" beleivers that will disagree with me saying..... "You still didn't show where the word "purgatory" is in the bible. And to that I will respond. neither is the word Trinity, Bible, Incarnation, ect. but as Christians, we do beleive in them, even though not directly expressed.


Peace

 

[fide]

Did you consider the historical data of Eastern Orthodoxy in their claims to be THE CHURCH?

Oh yes - they are apostolic in origin, and lineage - their sacraments are valid, thus efficacious, they are rightly called "a Church". But they deviated from the true faith on a few points - maybe because, historically, of the intertwining of the sacred and the secular in their part of the world, Church and State, around the times leading to "the Great Schism" when the separation became fixed. The West was also greatly challenged in that same area, but the West confronted it differently and survived.

 

[Albion]

For the question, can purification be completed on earth? In Matt. 5:48.... Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Now (and I hope you would agree) to be "perfect" this purification, if not obtained on earth, must be obtained elsewhere. So I had to ask myself....It surely can't be in heaven for to be in heaven everything is perfect, right? And as far as hell....... well if you are there, forget about being perfected, aint going to happen. So where else could it be?....... Purgatory.

That seems to me to be quite a leap. The statement itself is not a prediction but an admonition, advice, or a way of pointing to the ideal. And if it were taken to be a clear reference to some place, in the afterlife, where perfection is to be obtained, why isn't that Heaven? And even if we conclude that there must be some transitional, reorientation kind of state of being, why immediately conclude that it's the very Medieval guess, with all it's specifics, that one church out of all the churches that exist, made in the 1400s? Even the Eastern Orthodox, who can claim antiquity and tradition with "the best of 'em" don't believe in Purgatory.

For the question, is there forgiveness after death, in heaven or hell? In Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.”

That doesn't mean that there WILL be forgiveness in the next. It clearly says that there WON'T BE.

Remember also that Purgatory is not a place of forgiveness, but of punishment for sins. Indeed, as the RCC describes Purgatory, it exists in order to punish souls for sins committed and already forgiven! The punishment is supposedly for you having committed them in the first place. So it cannot be a place for forgiveness.. Not that and also meet the definition of Purgatory.

For space and time constraints, I won't comment on the remaining questions I posted on #91 But will of asked. There are many "No-Purgatory"/ "sola scripturists" beleivers that will disagree with me saying..... "You still didn't show where the word "purgatory" is in the bible. And to that I will respond. neither is the word Trinity, Bible, Incarnation, ect. but as Christians, we do beleive in them, even though not directly expressed.

That one again.

I think that there was someone in this thread who said that the word isn't in the Bible, but I didn't take that comment to mean that this was the reason not to believe in the theory of Purgatory. The reason not to believe in it is because the idea isn't to be found there. It's strictly an invention that came out of the age of Scholasticism, which is better known to many people because of the question "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" meaning, of course, that theologians in that era are remembered, even yet, for their fascination with speculating on hypotheticals and minutia.

 

[fide]

Remember also that Purgatory is not a place of forgiveness, but of punishment for sins. Indeed, as the RCC describes Purgatory, it exists in order to punish souls for sins committed and already forgiven! The punishment is supposedly for you having committed them in the first place. So it cannot be a place for forgiveness.. Not that and also meet the definition of Purgatory.
.

You wrote,
"Remember also that Purgatory is not a place of forgiveness, but of punishment for sins. Indeed, as the RCC describes Purgatory, it exists in order to punish souls for sins committed and already forgiven! The punishment is supposedly for you having committed them in the first place. So it cannot be a place for forgiveness.. Not that and also meet the definition of Purgatory."

"Punishment" for persons who are in a living relationship with God (what the Church calls "the state of grace") is always remedial - not terminal. Therefore purgatory is "a place for forgiveness".

Think in terms of a loving parent. Does he or she punish the child merely to inflict suffering - no - only for remediation, to correct, to "purify" by "purging" from the child his/her love for the unrighteous act. Then, after "punishment", the child is become more fitting for the household.

 

[Albion]

You wrote,
"Remember also that Purgatory is not a place of forgiveness, but of punishment for sins. Indeed, as the RCC describes Purgatory, it exists in order to punish souls for sins committed and already forgiven! The punishment is supposedly for you having committed them in the first place. So it cannot be a place for forgiveness.. Not that and also meet the definition of Purgatory."

"Punishment" for persons who are in a living relationship with God (what the Church calls "the state of grace") is always remedial - not terminal. Therefore purgatory is "a place for forgiveness".

You just agreed that it's for punishment. It cannot be made better by saying that the souls in Purgatory deserved it. And remember that it is taught by the church that you will wind up there to be punished for sins that ALREADY HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN.

Think in terms of a loving parent.

Nope. Rationalizations and weak analogies abound, but Purgatory is to be believed if God has revealed it to his people. We cannot go by the "why not?" proof of Purgatory I hear so often or the "If I were God, I'd do X, so he probably does that, too" approach.

 

[fide]

You just agreed that it's for punishment. It cannot be made better by saying that the souls in Purgatory deserved it. And remember that it is taught by the church that you will wind up there to be punished for sins that ALREADY HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN.


Nope. Rationalizations and weak analogies abound, but Purgatory is to be believed if God has revealed it to his people. We cannot go by the "why not?" proof of Purgatory I hear so often or the "If I were God, I'd do X, so he probably does that, too" approach.

Your criticisms sound very strange to me. I think the strangeness has to do with the understanding of salvation itself, among non-Catholics. The Catholic Church believes and teaches that, finally, salvation means not only satisfaction of justice (forgiveness of sin) - in an external, forensic sense - it means the reception of a new heart and a right spirit: holiness, and readiness for eternal fellowship with God, and all His holy ones in heaven.

Suppose, as an example, a man has a deep-seated love for some act that is sinful. Pick one that seems reasonable to you. Now this man can receive forgiveness for the sins he has committed - all of them - but in his heart can remain the attraction to, that is, the love - the desire - for this sin. This love for this sinful act is disordered, the love for it in his heart (actually, his soul) is a disorder. He has been forgiven the sinful actions that this love led him to on earth, but in his soul there possibly (and probably) remains this love even after his death. His soul did not die! His soul after death is the same soul it was before death! And so if his soul was loving some uncleanness before his death, and he did not himself fully repent and find renewal of heart before death, then that "cleansing" must happen to him after death.

This "cleansing" will "hurt"! The main cause of the suffering is the grief and pain that he experiences realizing that he could be in heaven with the Lord this very moment, if only he had deeply and fully repented of this sinful love, while he had the time, and the grace to do so, on earth.

So there it is, if you can hear it. If you don't want to, of course it is your choice - your life - your faith. But know that the one Church begun by the Lord Jesus believes and teaches differently.

 

[Albion]

Your criticisms sound very strange to me. I think the strangeness has to do with the understanding of salvation itself, among non-Catholics. The Catholic Church believes and teaches that, finally, salvation means not only satisfaction of justice (forgiveness of sin) - in an external, forensic sense - it means the reception of a new heart and a right spirit: holiness, and readiness for eternal fellowship with God, and all His holy ones in heaven.

Very well. I find it strange to make this concept be so important when it's based upon very scant Biblical information, whereas the references to salvation (or damnation) in the way you say "non-Catholics" understand things are very numerous.

However, the question of whether there IS a Purgatory according to your view of salvation remains, and as I pointed out in the previous post, the definition of Purgatory--as given by the only church that believes in it--conflicts with your own theory as previously given to me.

...love for some act that is sinful. Pick one that seems reasonable to you. Now this man can receive forgiveness for the sins he has committed - all of them - but in his heart can remain the attraction to, that is, the love - the desire - for this sin. This love for this sinful act is disordered, the love for it in his heart (actually, his soul) is a disorder. He has been forgiven the sinful actions that this love led him to on earth, but in his soul there possibly (and probably) remains this love even after his death.

How do we know that to be so? I think that once we have the mysteries of the God opened up to us and the scales fall from our eyes, beginning at the judgment following death, we most likely will cease to have such Earthly impulses and thoughts. We will be freed from all of that.

So there it is, if you can hear it. If you don't want to, of course it is your choice

You have speculated and hypothesized all through this exchange. There is nothing in this latter part about how things might be in Purgatory that is anything but a personal theory. You cannot "prove" the existence of a Purgatory by coming up with a scenario that might logically take place. Or not. There are a dozen others that any of us could come up with, relying only upon that which seems logical.

 

[fide]

Very well. I find it strange to make this concept be so important when it's based upon very scant Biblical information, whereas the references to salvation (or damnation) in the way you say "non-Catholics" understand things are very numerous.

The predominant concern in the early Church was to call people to conversion. The Holy Spirit was to guide the faithful Church, in time, into the things proper to maturity. Thus, we read,

Heb 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,...​

and again,

Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ;
Eph 4:14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles.​

and again,

1Co 3:1 But I, brethren, could not address you as spiritual men, but as men of the flesh, as babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I fed you with milk, not solid food; for you were not ready for it; and even yet you are not ready,
1Co 3:3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh, and behaving like ordinary men?​

Thus the role of the Spirit would be to guide the Church, in time:

John 16:12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
John 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. (all future tense)​

It was never God's idea to tie the Church to the dominant themes of the beginning (i.e. "sola scriptura" - an invention of impatient men) - but to guide her into the fullness of truth, and maturity, as she was ready.

However, the question of whether there IS a Purgatory according to your view of salvation remains, and as I pointed out in the previous post, the definition of Purgatory--as given by the only church that believes in it--conflicts with your own theory as previously given to me.

There are different ways of approaching and understanding the supernatural truth of every Truth of the Gospel. Things of God are not "bumpersticker theology." Wisdom, itself a supernatural gift, is needed - and comes to those who seek it.

 

[Albion]

We can return to discussing the evidence (or lack of same) for Purgatory when you're ready. In the meantime, "My church says so" isn't going to get it.

 

[fide]

We can return to discussing the evidence (or lack of same) for Purgatory when you're ready. In the meantime, "My church says so" isn't going to get it.

The only thing that will "get it" is........
..... ready?.....
.... is holy faith.

"Prove it" is a mental game. I'll move on.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Oh yes - they are apostolic in origin, and lineage - their sacraments are valid, thus efficacious, they are rightly called "a Church". But they deviated from the true faith on a few points - maybe because, historically, of the intertwining of the sacred and the secular in their part of the world, Church and State, around the times leading to "the Great Schism" when the separation became fixed. The West was also greatly challenged in that same area, but the West confronted it differently and survived.

That is odd. Both the West and the East confronted matters differently and both have survived. Some would say that one has survived better than the other, but that depends on which metrics one chooses to apply. If survival is the chief criterion for determining and history is the secondary criterion, perhaps you ought to be Hindu. Those folks have not only survived, but have been around way longer than Christians.

So, because the Eastern Orthodox Churches do not recognize your Pope as Lord and Head of the Church, you can dismiss them as having deviated from the "true faith". You might find this odd, but they would level the inverse argument against you and your denomination.

 

[fide]

That is odd. Both the West and the East confronted matters differently and both have survived. Some would say that one has survived better than the other, but that depends on which metrics one chooses to apply. If survival is the chief criterion for determining and history is the secondary criterion, perhaps you ought to be Hindu. Those folks have not only survived, but have been around way longer than Christians.

So, because the Eastern Orthodox Churches do not recognize your Pope as Lord and Head of the Church, you can dismiss them as having deviated from the "true faith". You might find this odd, but they would level the inverse argument against you and your denomination.

There exists truth, and there exists error. Because each proponent can argue his case, does not effect the truth or the error. Everyone who seeks, finds.

 

[Albion]

The only thing that will "get it" is........
..... ready?.....
.... is holy faith.

"Prove it" is a mental game. I'll move on.

Sounds good. At least we reached some resolution before breaking off the discussion.

Not surprisingly, the attempt to prove that Purgatory exists--which we both set out to do--resulted in showing that it's a Medieval fable turned into a doctrine, and by one church only.

You, however, want to believe it anyway, largely because your church insists upon it, and will put the best face possible on your decision...by calling it an act of "faith."

 

[fide]

Sounds good. At least we reached some resolution before breaking off the discussion.

Not surprisingly, the attempt to prove that Purgatory exists--which we both set out to do--resulted in showing that it's a Medieval fable turned into a doctrine, and by one church only.

You, however, want to believe it anyway, largely because your church insists upon it, and will put the best face possible on your decision...by calling it an act of "faith."

I would be very cautious about demeaning faith - as you have here, labeling faith that you clearly do not understand, but feel free to demean it anyway - "fable turned into doctrine", asserting it is merely a "decision" made "largely because your church insists upon it." I would encourage you to reconsider your foundations of judgment. Faith is not "faith" in quotes - faith, true faith, stands on rock. Faith is a supernatural reality, of divine origin and object - salvific - holy.

 

[Albion]

I would be very cautious about demeaning faith - as you have here...

That is not in the least what I did. I was saying that faith in the theological sense is not simply "to take it 'on faith.'"

That use of the word is more like credulousness or compliance, not faith as the word is used in the Bible and by Christianity generally.