Purgatory/Gehenna

Tom 1

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Hello,

Just requesting explanations of the Catholic teaching on purgatory and Jewish views on what Gehenna means/represents. I know this is a controversial topic so what I’m hoping for are explanations of the teaching rather than any debate of opinions on its validity.

Much appreciated, in advance,

Tom
 

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Hello,

Just requesting explanations of the Catholic teaching on purgatory and Jewish views on what Gehenna means/represents. I know this is a controversial topic so what I’m hoping for are explanations of the teaching rather than any debate of opinions on its validity.

Much appreciated, in advance,

Tom
Hi Tom,

If you're wanting explanations and no debate, the best place is to ask in the respective own congregational forums. You won't likely get no-debate here. And if you want to really understand a doctrine, it really is only fair to go to the source and ask them what they really teach, rather than relying on second-hand info. That is particularly true of Catholic teaching, I've found, but really applies to any.

With that said, I won't comment on either. My understanding of purgatory is probably nuanced by my own rejection of it, and as for gehenna from a Jewish perspective particularly, I'm not sure.

I hope you find what you are looking for. :)
 
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Tom 1

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Hi Tom,

If you're wanting explanations and no debate, the best place is to ask in the respective own congregational forums. You won't likely get no-debate here. And if you want to really understand a doctrine, it really is only fair to go to the source and ask them what they really teach, rather than relying on second-hand info. That is particularly true of Catholic teaching, I've found, but really applies to any.

With that said, I won't comment on either. My understanding of purgatory is probably nuanced by my own rejection of it, and as for gehenna from a Jewish perspective particularly, I'm not sure.

I hope you find what you are looking for. :)

Thanks, maybe I’ll ask admin for the best place to post
 
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Basil the Great

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Purgatory is the place that Catholics believe that souls go to after death who die without any unconfessed mortal/grave sins, but still have sins that need to be purged of before going on to Heaven. The length of time that one would spend in Purgatory depends upon each person. As far as Gehenna, this appears to be another name for Hell. It is certainly not the same as Sheol or Hades, the abode of the dead back at the time of Jesus.
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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Purgatory is the place that Catholics believe that souls go to after death who die without any unconfessed mortal/grave sins, but still have sins that need to be purged of before going on to Heaven. The length of time that one would spend in Purgatory depends upon each person. As far as Gehenna, this appears to be another name for Hell. It is certainly not the same as Sheol or Hades, the abode of the dead back at the time of Jesus.


I think that Gehenna was the garbage dump located south of the City of David...where the fires were never quenched...a good analagy for Hell,used by Jesus in zHis teaching
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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The teaching of Purgatory is based on a passage from the non-biblical book of 2 Maccabees, which is not part of the divine, inspired Scriptures, and therefore not the same in authority as the 66 Books of the Holy Bible. This teaching is nowhere to be found in the entire Bible, even though there are some who suppose that it does. The New Testament Book of Hebrews, is very clear that after a person dies, only the Righteous Judgement of God awaits them: " And just as it is appointed for people to die once and for all and after this, judgment" (9:27). Salvation is not possible after death. All those who leave this world as "born-again believers", through repentance of personal sins, and faith in Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour, are "saved" and will spend eternity in heaven with the Lord. All who die "in their sins", that is, without Jesus Christ as their Saviour, will end up in "hell", which Jesus describes as a place of suffering (wailing and gnashing of teeth - Matthew 13:42, etc), "where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:48). Note the use of the personal "their" (both in the Hebrew [Isaiah 66:24] and Greek) "worm", which is a reference not to the "creeping animals", but to the person [body] (Isaiah 41:14).

On Gehenna, "is strictly "the valley of Hinnom" (Jos 15:8; Ne 11:30); "the valley of the children of Hinnom" (2Ki 23:10); "the valley of the son of Hinnom" (2Ch 28:3); "the valley of dead bodies," or Tophet, where malefactors' dead bodies were cast, S. of the city (Jer 31:40). A deep narrow glen S. of Jerusalem, where, after Ahaz introduced the worship of the fire gods, the sun, Baal, Moloch, the Jews under Manasseh made their children to pass through the fire (2Ch 33:6), and offered them as burnt offerings (Jer 7:31; 19:2-6). So the godly Josiah defiled the valley, making it a receptacle of carcass and criminals' corpses, in which worms were continually gendering. (Fausset’s Bible Dictionary)

“The LXX does not have γέεννα. Joseph. mentions neither the term nor the matter, probably because he was a Pharisee and thus denied the resurrection of the ungodly (Bell., 3, 374 f.; Ap., 2, 218). Philo does not know the word and uses τάρταρος instead (Exsecr., 152).7...It is significant that the oldest Rabbinic reference to Gehenna (T. Sanh., 13, 3 and par.) tells us that the disciples of Shammai, as distinct from those of Hillel, ascribe to Gehenna a purgatorial as well as a penal character, namely, in the case of the שְׁקוּלִים or בֵּינוֹנִים, i.e., those whose merits and transgressions balance one another. It may be that this conception of a purificatory character of the final fire of judgment underlies such passages as Mk. 9:49; 1 C. 3:13–15; cf. 2 Pt. 3:10." (Kittel TDNT)

The Greek Old Testament, which was completed some 150 years before the Birth of Jesus Christ, does not have the word "gehenna". The Jewish Philosopher, Philo (25 B.C.-A.D.50), never used the word. Nor does the Jewish historian Josephus, who lived just after the death of Jesus (A.D.37-100).

In my own study on "γέεννα", I found that the majority of its uses in the New Testament, it is used in connection with believers, as in Matthew 5:22, 25, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23: 15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5, and James 3:6. It is clear from the teachings in the New Testament, that those who are truly "born-again" believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, can never be lost in hell, but are guaranteed heaven after they die. I cannot understand the use of "γέεννα" for this group.
 
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Thanks, maybe I’ll ask admin for the best place to post

I usually ask any Catholic questions in OBOB (One Bread One Body) ... though to be honest, I rarely get my question answered, lol, though there will be replies. There are a few other Catholic forums on here, but I'm not familiar with them.

As for a Jewish perspective on Gehenna ...

I don't think we have a Jewish board. The Messianics have tried to recapture that but I don't know how many of them are connected with Jewish thought or how it has been maintained through the centuries. The Eastern Orthodox might be another good place to ask, since we maintain and study the writings of the first century Jewsish who became Christian. (I can't really answer your question because other than recognizing the distinctions between places mentioned in Scripture, and what Gehenna actually referred to - the burning garbage dump - I had no further interest.)

I hope you find the info you need. :)
 
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ViaCrucis

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The teaching of Purgatory is based on a passage from the non-biblical book of 2 Maccabees, which is not part of the divine, inspired Scriptures, and therefore not the same in authority as the 66 Books of the Holy Bible.

2 Maccabees doesn't mention purgatory, it references prayers for the dead. Prayers for the dead =/= purgatory. Only Roman Catholics believe in purgatory, but Catholics, Orthodox, and Lutherans (also [some] Anglicans?) all accept the ancient Jewish and Christian practice of praying for the dead.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Tom 1

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2 Maccabees doesn't mention purgatory, it references prayers for the dead. Prayers for the dead =/= purgatory. Only Roman Catholics believe in purgatory, but Catholics, Orthodox, and Lutherans (also [some] Anglicans?) all believe in praying for the dead.

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks - in the other churches you mention there apart from RC, what is the function of the praying for the dead?
 
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Thanks - in the other churches you mention there apart from RC, what is the function of the praying for the dead?

Approaching the subject as a Lutheran, in the most simple sense praying for the faithfully departed is much the same as praying for the living. In the Apostles' Creed we confess faith in the Communion of Saints, and as such the faithfully departed are still part of the Church, and thus we pray for one another as we have been instructed. We pray for them, and they for us; even as we pray for one another while present in this mortal body here on earth. Thus our prayers for the faithfully departed is about recognizing the continued unity and true communion of the people of God in Christ. Death is no obstacle to communion, for Christ our Lord has triumphed over death. We don't pray for the faithfully departed as though by our prayers their station is somehow improved--they are already in glory, joined with all the choirs of holy angels before God's presence, having received rest from their weariness as they await, even as we await, the future resurrection and life of the Age to Come. They are in far better shape than we are, so we do not pray that they somehow be improved; but rather we pray, as having been instructed in Scripture to pray for one another, to love one another, for we are part of one another in Christ, as the Church of God.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Tom 1

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Approaching the subject as a Lutheran, in the most simple sense praying for the faithfully departed is much the same as praying for the living. In the Apostles' Creed we confess faith in the Communion of Saints, and as such the faithfully departed are still part of the Church, and thus we pray for one another as we have been instructed. We pray for them, and they for us; even as we pray for one another while present in this mortal body here on earth. Thus our prayers for the faithfully departed is about recognizing the continued unity and true communion of the people of God in Christ. Death is no obstacle to communion, for Christ our Lord has triumphed over death. We don't pray for the faithfully departed as though by our prayers their station is somehow improved--they are already in glory, joined with all the choirs of holy angels before God's presence, having received rest from their weariness as they await, even as we await, the future resurrection and life of the Age to Come. They are in far better shape than we are, so we do not pray that they somehow be improved; but rather we pray, as having been instructed in Scripture to pray for one another, to love one another, for we are part of one another in Christ, as the Church of God.

-CryptoLutheran

Great, thanks
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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2 Maccabees doesn't mention purgatory, it references prayers for the dead. Prayers for the dead =/= purgatory. Only Roman Catholics believe in purgatory, but Catholics, Orthodox, and Lutherans (also [some] Anglicans?) all accept the ancient Jewish and Christian practice of praying for the dead.

-CryptoLutheran

The Roman Catholic church uses 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 for support of this teaching, which was adopted by the Council of Trent. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Purgatory This is unbibilical and "wishful theology", and has no part of serious Bible teaching. Other "proofs" like 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, have nothing to do with "purgatory", as some contend!
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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The Roman Catholic church uses 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 for support of this teaching, which was adopted by the Council of Trent. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Purgatory This is unbibilical and "wishful theology", and has no part of serious Bible teaching. Other "proofs" like 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, have nothing to do with "purgatory", as some contend!


It’s all a fairy - tale for thos who desecrate the value of The Blood of Christ.It might as well be the blood of a goat—- able to cover sins for awhile , but not do away with sin
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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It’s all a fairy - tale for thos who desecrate the value of The Blood of Christ.It might as well be the blood of a goat—- able to cover sins for awhile , but not do away with sin

Indeed! I don't know if you are aware of this, almost all the uses of Gehenna in the New Testament, are for believers! I am not too sure as to why, but have seen from my personal study, that Gehenna as a place of future torment, is found in the inter-testamental books that are not part of the Jewish Old Testament Canon. However, this teaching was common in Christ's time among some Jewish teachers. It is puzzling to me.
 
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This thread has been moved from the Controversial Christian Theology
Forum to the Denomination Specific Theology Forum.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The Roman Catholic church uses 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 for support of this teaching, which was adopted by the Council of Trent. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Purgatory This is unbibilical and "wishful theology", and has no part of serious Bible teaching. Other "proofs" like 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, have nothing to do with "purgatory", as some contend!

Then the issue is interpretation, not the text itself. Blaming 2 Maccabees for purgatory is like blaming 1 Corinthians for purgatory.

My point was that 2 Maccabees doesn't teach purgatory, it simply mentions praying for the dead, which is historically normative Jewish and Christian practice. Even St. Paul prayed for the dead, 2 Timothy 1:16-18.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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TuxAme

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Purgatory is where most of us who are destined for heaven, will probably end up before we get there. We still have to be purged of our sin (nothing unclean will enter the Kingdom of Heaven), and we must endure the temporal punishments attached to the sins we've committed.

For a crude example, I might compare it to a chemical shower. It hurts a lot, but you wouldn't have to be taking it if you hadn't been exposed to chemicals, and it's for your own good that you take the shower.
 
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Basil the Great

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Thanks - in the other churches you mention there apart from RC, what is the function of the praying for the dead?
Excellent question. If Anglicans and Lutherans and any other Protestant groups pray for the dead, it is my experience and understanding that said prayers are pretty much in the form of thanksgiving and maybe, possibly, a one-time very mild request at the funeral for God to accept one's soul. These Protestant prayers for the dead should not be compared to those of the Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox Church or the Oriental Orthodox Churches.

Now as to the Eastern Orthodox, they do pray very much for the dead, but they do not pretend to know exactly how said prayers help the deceased. However, once a year at Pentecost, the Eastern Orthodox pray St. Basil's Third Kneeling Prayer and this prayer is specifically for the souls bound in Hades, aka apparently the Eastern Orthodox conditional Hell. EO do not believe that souls go to Heaven or Hell as such until the Last Judgment, but that souls receive a foretaste of Heaven or Hell when they die. Some Eastern Orthodox, but not all, believe that it is possible for souls bound in Hades, aka conditional Hell, to be released from their bondage and be allowed to move up to conditional Heaven, as the judgment of souls is believed not to be finalized until Jesus returns. Most Orthodox who might doubt that souls could escape their bondage in Hades, probably still believe that prayers for those in bondage can still grant them a measure of relief. I cannot really speak to the Oriental Orthodox, other than in my research once regarding St. Basil's Third Kneeling prayer, I ran across a discussion between a Coptic Orthodox Christian (Oriental Orthodox) and an Eastern Orthodox Christian. As I recall, the Copt explained to the other fellow that they did not believe that souls in bondage have a chance to be released.
 
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Purgatory is where most of us who are destined for heaven, will probably end up before we get there. We still have to be purged of our sin (nothing unclean will enter the Kingdom of Heaven), and we must endure the temporal punishments attached to the sins we've committed.

For a crude example, I might compare it to a chemical shower. It hurts a lot, but you wouldn't have to be taking it if you hadn't been exposed to chemicals, and it's for your own good that you take the shower.


I thought the Bible said that His Blood cleanses us from ALL sin
 
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