Purgatory/Gehenna

[~Anastasia~]

Thanks - in the other churches you mention there apart from RC, what is the function of the praying for the dead?

We pray for the dead because we love them, and because God is not constrained by time and can know all prayers we ever will pray. We ask generally for God to have mercy on them, but we also pray for their eternal rest just as we would pray for anyone's soul while they are still alive. We do not expect that God will "change His mind" and remove someone from torment and place them in grace - we are not dogmatic about how or when God might answer such prayers. We simply love, so we pray, as we would for anyone. What/when God does with that is strictly His business.

It is true that we do not believe the final judgement has taken place yet. We don't go beyond what we have been given in beliefs about the afterlife, and this information is limited on some aspects. But we also do not limit what God can do.

I remember as a Protestant (evangelical type) I developed the habit of praying for people involved when I saw emergency vehicles. At one point I thought to myself that I could without realizing it be praying for someone already dead, and considered whether I should stop doing it. But then I thought to myself, God knows I would pray that prayer, and He knew it while they were still alive, and could answer it however it needed to be answered. So I kept doing it, for the sake of those unknown people, not knowing if they had anyone else who might pray for them.

It's a lot like that.

 

[concretecamper]

Purgatory is the place that Catholics believe that souls go to after death who die without any unconfessed mortal/grave sins,

Nope, this is not what the Church teaches.

 

[Basil the Great]

Nope, this is not what the Church teaches.

Pray tell and how was my answer incorrect? Those who die in mortal/grave sin go to Hell. The apparently few saints that die go directly to Heaven, being free of both mortal and venial sin. All Catholics who die in venial sin, but without any unconfessed mortal sin go to Purgatory. Non-Catholics who also members of the Catholic Church without knowing so, via the doctrine of "invincible ignorance", also go to Purgatory, assuming that they are not in a state of unforgiven mortal sin. I suppose it is possible for a Protestant or an Orthodox Christian to be a saint and go directly to Heaven, though I have not seen any Catholic teaching say so directly.

 

[concretecamper]

Purgatory is the place that Catholics believe that souls go to after death who die without any unconfessed mortal/grave sins

Those who die in mortal/grave sin go to Hell. The apparently few saints that die go directly to Heaven, being free of both mortal and venial sin

Pray tell and how was my answer incorrect?

You don't see the difference between these 2 statements? (A person who dies free of serious/mortal sin has 2 possibilities.....I added this based on Anastasia's question)

You corrected yourself nicely

 

[~Anastasia~]

You don't see the difference between these 2 statements? You corrected yourself nicely

Wait ... may I ask a question, please?

Purgatory in the Catholic teaching is supposed to cleanse from any vestiges of impurity, etc, correct? I understand it to be about incompleted temporal punishment for sins, but that punishment is supposed to "purify the soul" correct?

So does Confession of those venial sins also purify the soul? Any penance given takes the place of "punishment" owed, correct? Or does it?

If a Catholic dies immediately after a good confession, do they expect to go straight to heaven? Or if the soul is not truly yet healed (as I think you might view the Saints to generally be) ... do they still need purgatory? Does it matter if they have not lived long enough to complete their penance?

I'm a bit confused about the supposed purpose according to purgation/punishment, and wondering if Catholicism considers them necessarily the same?


(Disclaimer to anyone reading - Orthodoxy does not consider the necessary temporal punishment of sins, but we do expect a person needs to be perfected before entering blessedness. We just don't explain the mechanics of how it happens since that is part of the mystery of God.)

 

[concretecamper]

Purgatory in the Catholic teaching is supposed to cleanse from any vestiges of impurity, etc, correct?

Purgatory is a STATE where the soul is purified from their stain of sin.

So does Confession of those venial sins also purify the soul? Any penance given takes the place of "punishment" owed, correct? Or does it?

The Sacrament of Confession forgives sin. Confession and the penance given does not substitute for purgatory.

If a Catholic dies immediately after a good confession, do they expect to go straight to heaven?

I don't think a Catholic would expect that, but it doesn't mean it could not happen.

I'm a bit confused about the supposed purpose according to purgation/punishment, and wondering if Catholicism considers them necessarily the same?

There are NUMEROUS threads on this. I do not have the time to go into it all but it would not take you long to search and find a boat load of stuff or just read the CCC

Here are a few Dogmas of the Church concerning the Last Things

The souls of the just which in the moment of death are free from all guilt of sin and punishment for sin, enter into Heaven.

The bliss of Heaven lasts for all eternity.

The degree of perfection of the Beatific Vision granted to the just is proportioned to each one's merit.

The souls of those who die in the condition of personal grievous sin enter Hell.

The punishment of Hell lasts for all eternity.

The souls of the just which, in the moment of death, are burdened with venial sins or temporal punishment due to sins, enter purgatory.

 

[Basil the Great]

You don't see the difference between these 2 statements? (A person who dies free of serious/mortal sin has 2 possibilities.....I added this based on Anastasia's question)

You corrected yourself nicely

Well, yes, I suppose you are right. Still, you could have made the correction instead of making me do so? Anyway, God speed and have a blessed Christmas!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Purgatory is a STATE where the soul is purified from their stain of sin.

The Sacrament of Confession forgives sin. Confession and the penance given does not substitute for purgatory.

I don't think a Catholic would expect that, but it doesn't mean it could not happen.

There are NUMEROUS threads on this. I do not have the time to go into it all but it would not take you long to search and find a boat load of stuff or just read the CCC

Here are a few Dogmas of the Church concerning the Last Things

The souls of the just which in the moment of death are free from all guilt of sin and punishment for sin, enter into Heaven.

The bliss of Heaven lasts for all eternity.

The degree of perfection of the Beatific Vision granted to the just is proportioned to each one's merit.

The souls of those who die in the condition of personal grievous sin enter Hell.

The punishment of Hell lasts for all eternity.

The souls of the just which, in the moment of death, are burdened with venial sins or temporal punishment due to sins, enter purgatory.

Thank you for the reply. I appreciate the time you have taken and do not wish to be an undue burden.

Actually in your summary (especially if that represents a good outline) I think I see where is this disconnect between my beliefs and yours.

It seems in every case it is still speaking of sin, punishment, guilt, and merit.

That is still quite a different paradigm from how we view it, which has to do with healing the soul from the effects of sin, which is about perfecting it, purifying it, etc.

I don't mean this in any way to be insulting. It's just a few posts in this thread made me think perhaps we are a little closer than I previously thought, at least about the needs of the soul. But I think maybe perhaps not after all.

Thank you again for the time you have taken.

Blessed Nativity to you and yours, and God be with you.

 

[concretecamper]

Well, yes, I suppose you are right. Still, you could have made the correction instead of making me do so? Anyway, God speed and have a blessed Christmas!

You are right. I should have. It's just that soooo many people on this forum put out incomplete information or even intentional falsehoods about the RCC...I reacted poorly. Have a blessed Christmas.

 

[Basil the Great]

You are right. I should have. It's just that soooo many people on this forum put out incomplete information or even intentional falsehoods about the RCC...I reacted poorly. Have a blessed Christmas.

My reply was an unintentional oversight. I pride myself in knowing more about Catholic theology than probably 80-90% of the U.S. Catholics and I often stick up for Catholics on C.F., especially when Catholicism is accused of a works based salvation.

 

[Athanasius377]

Hello,

Just requesting explanations of the Catholic teaching on purgatory and Jewish views on what Gehenna means/represents. I know this is a controversial topic so what I’m hoping for are explanations of the teaching rather than any debate of opinions on its validity.

Much appreciated, in advance,

Tom

Good question.

The best explanation I can offer is this. When a person dies who is in a state of grace; meaning no unforgiven mortal sins and has enough merit from good works is heaven bound. However, there is a purification that needs to take place first. According to Roman theology there are two parts to sin that need to be dealt with. First is the guilt of sin. This is forgiven by a priest after a confession by a person who is contrite. The second part is the temporal punishment of sin. This can be dealt with by the priest assigning some form of penance (a good work and or prayers for example). If a person dies in the above stated state of grace but has not worked off as it were the temporal punishment due sin then it must be burned off in Purgatory. Historically this has been defined in terms of years, sometimes thousands of years depending on the time period. Purgatory is an intermediate state where this purification takes place.

 

[Tom 1]

Many thanks all for the info, very helpful

 

[fide]

I think the best way to understand the common - usual - need for purgatory, after the death of a person in the state of grace, is the issue of love, the purity of love, in his soul.

The commandment is to love God with all of one's mind, heart, soul and strength - and one's neighbor as self. Since this is commanded, we can understand it as the requirement upon us: we must do this. Our love for God, and all neighbors, must be pure - not mixed with the impurity of disordered self-love.

It is disordered self-love that is manifested in sin. "Punishment" for sin ought to cleanse us from the love for it. But often it does not cleanse us from the love of the sin! Often we repeat the sin - why? - because we love it more than we love God; we love ourselves, our pleasure, more than we love God (or neighbor as God wills). We cannot enter the divine Presence - the Beatific Vision - the Glory of Heaven with God - if we have within us, such impurity of love, impurity of soul.

Hence the need for purification - the "purging fire" that drives the base metals out of the pure gold, so to speak.

Purgatory is God's "plan B" for the saved: if we fail to use holy grace to become holy in this life, we need "plan B" - purgatory. Purgatory is not absolutely necessary: God provides us with grace abundantly! But we are wasteful, we are typically "prodigal sons", wasting the Father's gifts and treasures offered to us in Christ Jesus. Yet He remains thrice-Holy, and thus our vocation - our call into Him - must be taken very, very, very seriously: "All are called to holiness, and to the perfection of Charity." (from Vatican II)

 

[Major1]

Then the issue is interpretation, not the text itself. Blaming 2 Maccabees for purgatory is like blaming 1 Corinthians for purgatory.

My point was that 2 Maccabees doesn't teach purgatory, it simply mentions praying for the dead, which is historically normative Jewish and Christian practice. Even St. Paul prayed for the dead, 2 Timothy 1:16-18.

-CryptoLutheran

Areeed.

Using 2 Maccabees or 1 Corth. for Purgatory would be the same as standing in a garage and calling yourself a car.

 

[Major1]

I think the best way to understand the common - usual - need for purgatory, after the death of a person in the state of grace, is the issue of love, the purity of love, in his soul.

The commandment is to love God with all of one's mind, heart, soul and strength - and one's neighbor as self. Since this is commanded, we can understand it as the requirement upon us: we must do this. Our love for God, and all neighbors, must be pure - not mixed with the impurity of disordered self-love.

It is disordered self-love that is manifested in sin. "Punishment" for sin ought to cleanse us from the love for it. But often it does not cleanse us from the love of the sin! Often we repeat the sin - why? - because we love it more than we love God; we love ourselves, our pleasure, more than we love God (or neighbor as God wills). We cannot enter the divine Presence - the Beatific Vision - the Glory of Heaven with God - if we have within us, such impurity of love, impurity of soul.

Hence the need for purification - the "purging fire" that drives the base metals out of the pure gold, so to speak.

Purgatory is God's "plan B" for the saved: if we fail to use holy grace to become holy in this life, we need "plan B" - purgatory. Purgatory is not absolutely necessary: God provides us with grace abundantly! But we are wasteful, we are typically "prodigal sons", wasting the Father's gifts and treasures offered to us in Christ Jesus. Yet He remains thrice-Holy, and thus our vocation - our call into Him - must be taken very, very, very seriously: "All are called to holiness, and to the perfection of Charity." (from Vatican II)

With all due respect to you and I do not mean to be mean spirited to you but I do not know of any other word than ........that is NONESENSE!

"Purgatory is God's Plan B".

That kind of teaching completely removes the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and His atoning blood.

The Bible teaches us That salvation is found in Jesus and Him alone.

Acts 4:12...........
'And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved.'

1 John 5:11-12............
'And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.'

The Bible teaches us that salvation cannot come by performing good works but through faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for your behalf and Purgatory is exactly THAT.

Eph 2:8............
'For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.'

Romans 3:20 '...
"by the works of the Law no one will be justified in His sight.'

 

[Phil 1:21]

Purgatory is where most of us who are destined for heaven, will probably end up before we get there. We still have to be purged of our sin (nothing unclean will enter the Kingdom of Heaven), and we must endure the temporal punishments attached to the sins we've committed.

For a crude example, I might compare it to a chemical shower. It hurts a lot, but you wouldn't have to be taking it if you hadn't been exposed to chemicals, and it's for your own good that you take the shower.

What exactly do you think happened at Calvary?

 

[TuxAme]

What exactly do you think happened at Calvary?

Jesus made a pure sacrifice, which was (and is) more than abundant to take away our sins.

Since I can only assume you disagree with what I said, let me clarify: if you're in purgatory, your sins have already been forgiven (or are about to be). Purgatory is a place where you are purged of any venial sins you may have died with, and you receive the temporal punishment due for the sins you've committed in your life.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Jesus made a pure sacrifice, which was (and is) more than abundant to take away our sins.

Since I can only assume you disagree with what I said, let me clarify: if you're in purgatory, your sins have already been forgiven (or are about to be). Purgatory is a place where you are purged of any venial sins you may have died with, and you receive the temporal punishment due for the sins you've committed in your life.

I trust you see how your second paragraph contradicts the first.

 

[fide]

With all due respect to you and I do not mean to be mean spirited to you but I do not know of any other word than ........that is NONESENSE!

"Purgatory is God's Plan B".

That kind of teaching completely removes the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and His atoning blood.

The Bible teaches us That salvation is found in Jesus and Him alone.

Acts 4:12...........
'And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved.'

1 John 5:11-12............
'And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.'

The Bible teaches us that salvation cannot come by performing good works but through faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for your behalf and Purgatory is exactly THAT.

Eph 2:8............
'For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.'

Romans 3:20 '...
"by the works of the Law no one will be justified in His sight.'

Maybe your view of purgatory "removes the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and His atoning blood," but the Catholic doctrine does not. Purgatory could not and did not exist before the atonement of Christ. The problem that remains after Christ, is imperfect - partial - mixed embrace of Christ and His Gospel.

If you are honest (no disrespect intended) you can see and admit that not all who profess Christ "remain" - "dwell " - "abide" in Him continuously - or for some, even habitually! Many are "in Christ" on a part-time basis. And if they die in this mixed condition of soul, they may be saved, but are not pure. And as Scripture says, (Rev 21:27), "But nothing unclean shall enter it..."

For this reason Jesus taught, "Be you therefore perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Mt 5:48)

And James gravely warned about the double-mindedness of those who think that salvation is cheap and easy - that you can love God and enjoy the world and its lusts, both. It cannot be "both"! One or the other! James wrote:
Jas 1:7 For that person must not suppose that a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways, will receive anything from the Lord.
Jas 4:8 Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind.

Indeed the word translated here "double-mind" is literally "two-soul"! Men who compromise the Gospel, and try to enjoy the pleasures of this world - sins - while still "OK" with God - have two souls in them (so to speak) - one that loves God, the other that loves sin. These cannot in truth co-exist - they contradict one another. That persisting love for sins must be purged if it exists at death for a believer - thus purgatory. He is saved because of Christ; he needs purgatory because his love for Christ was not complete, even in his death.

 

[Major1]

Maybe your view of purgatory "removes the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and His atoning blood," but the Catholic doctrine does not. Purgatory could not and did not exist before the atonement of Christ. The problem that remains after Christ, is imperfect - partial - mixed embrace of Christ and His Gospel.

If you are honest (no disrespect intended) you can see and admit that not all who profess Christ "remain" - "dwell " - "abide" in Him continuously - or for some, even habitually! Many are "in Christ" on a part-time basis. And if they die in this mixed condition of soul, they may be saved, but are not pure. And as Scripture says, (Rev 21:27), "But nothing unclean shall enter it..."

For this reason Jesus taught, "Be you therefore perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Mt 5:48)

And James gravely warned about the double-mindedness of those who think that salvation is cheap and easy - that you can love God and enjoy the world and its lusts, both. It cannot be "both"! One or the other! James wrote:
Jas 1:7 For that person must not suppose that a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways, will receive anything from the Lord.
Jas 4:8 Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind.

Indeed the word translated here "double-mind" is literally "two-soul"! Men who compromise the Gospel, and try to enjoy the pleasures of this world - sins - while still "OK" with God - have two souls in them (so to speak) - one that loves God, the other that loves sin. These cannot in truth co-exist - they contradict one another. That persisting love for sins must be purged if it exists at death for a believer - thus purgatory. He is saved because of Christ; he needs purgatory because his love for Christ was not complete, even in his death.

I do not have a view on Purgatory. I have some knowledge of what the RCC teaches as compared to the Word of God.

That being the case, there is no such thing as Purgatory as its teaching is not found in the Bible in any place.