Psychiatry and Orthodoxy: Nope Homosexuality is not normal

[Gregorios]

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[Gregorios]

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The thread is going to be re-opened so that the discussion may continue. However, be mindful of the rules regarding discussing homosexuality

Do not promote homosexuality on Christian Forums. Homosexuality can only be discussed, without promotion, in Christian Communities and Faith Groups. Homosexuality may also be discussed in the Recovery and Ask a Chaplain forums solely for the purpose of seeking support with struggles overcoming same-sex attractions, and homosexual issues.

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[Giantsbran1227]

I just moved to Hollywood, and am disgusted with the presupposition that if I am a young male, I should and DO support gay marriage. They hang gay pride flags right next to the American flag at the town hall, and in other locations around LA. It is disgusting.

I also have the pleasure of running into Planned Parenthood volunteers every time I go to whole foods for lunch. Dear God.

 

[Gregorios]

I just moved to Hollywood, and am disgusted with the presupposition that if I am a young male, I should and DO support gay marriage. They hang gay pride flags right next to the American flag at the town hall, and in other locations around LA. It is disgusting.

I also have the pleasure of running into Planned Parenthood volunteers every time I go to whole foods for lunch. Dear God.

God bless you! I couldn't imagine how difficult that would be.

 

[rusmeister]

I just moved to Hollywood, and am disgusted with the presupposition that if I am a young male, I should and DO support gay marriage. They hang gay pride flags right next to the American flag at the town hall, and in other locations around LA. It is disgusting.

I also have the pleasure of running into Planned Parenthood volunteers every time I go to whole foods for lunch. Dear God.

That last sounds to me like an opportunity - if you yourself are well-armed enough.

I strongly recommend "The Superstition of Divorce" by Chesterton for a means of being able to talk civilly and intelligently with unbelievers who are not the least interested in what your religion says, but might consider purely "secular" considerations.

Since no one here took that on (which saddens me somewhat) I could offer it on a different thread. I think Chesterton's thought to be one of the most useful weapons of our time when people demand intelligent reason as to why they should believe. He appeals both to logic and (especially) to common sense, to the heart, and does so with charity and humor, without "selling" religion and providing considerations that do not demand faith from the get-go. I do not think he is beyond the reach of reasonably intelligent Christians - which I think there are plenty of.

 

[Trying_to_be_Orthodox]

Sorry for my bad engl, guys . Need your help Did i understand right reality check of Cosmic chi?:

SIN has been around since the dawn of time. many famous historical figures have been in SIN and have formed close and intimate same-sex relationships with one another.
SIN can be found in every pre-christian religion and culture and in every Christian, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu culture of both the past and of today.
SIN isn't limited to one ethnic group but can be found amongst White, Black, Asian, Arab races.
SIN exist in inside of every modern religion, every society, every economic group, every race!!!
....Good luck in your efforts to suppress us, belittle us etc. your going to need it!!! Change the Heavens on the HELL!!! JUST DO IT!!! JUST SIN your SELF!!! FREEDOM!!! LOVE!!! PEACE!!!
----------------

ps and serious: in Bible sodomy is sin. No doubt.

 

[Thekla]

Sorry for my bad engl, guys . Need your help Did i understand right reality check of Cosmic chi?:

SIN has been around since the dawn of time. many famous historical figures have been in SIN and have formed close and intimate same-sex relationships with one another.
SIN can be found in every pre-christian religion and culture and in every Christian, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu culture of both the past and of today.
SIN isn't limited to one ethnic group but can be found amongst White, Black, Asian, Arab races.
SIN exist in inside of every modern religion, every society, every economic group, every race!!!
....Good luck in your efforts to suppress us, belittle us etc. your going to need it!!! Change the Heavens on the HELL!!! JUST DO IT!!! JUST SIN your SELF!!! FREEDOM!!! LOVE!!! PEACE!!!
----------------

ps and serious: in Bible sodomy is sin. No doubt.

Both your summaries seem about right

To add: other apparent "born withs" occur in every era and every culture - heart disease, mental illness, etc. ...

Imo, it is dangerous to make "born with" a norm (normal).

 

[Giantsbran1227]

I have read some Chesterton, although never that book. I will check it out. Although I prefer CS Lewis

That last sounds to me like an opportunity - if you yourself are well-armed enough.

I strongly recommend "The Superstition of Divorce" by Chesterton for a means of being able to talk civilly and intelligently with unbelievers who are not the least interested in what your religion says, but might consider purely "secular" considerations.

Since no one here took that on (which saddens me somewhat) I could offer it on a different thread. I think Chesterton's thought to be one of the most useful weapons of our time when people demand intelligent reason as to why they should believe. He appeals both to logic and (especially) to common sense, to the heart, and does so with charity and humor, without "selling" religion and providing considerations that do not demand faith from the get-go. I do not think he is beyond the reach of reasonably intelligent Christians - which I think there are plenty of.

 

[Philothei]

Cosmic chi Please do not debate here on homosexuality is NOT allowed in our forums.

 

[underheaven]

except sodomy isn't homosexual behavior. we know that the Ancient Jews (and the Jews of Today, thank God we Christians didn't convert or wipe them out cause they're a great help in understanding the Torah) didn't consider the sin of sodomy to be about homosexuality, but rather about violence and in hospitality.
It was only in the Christian period that the sin of Sodom became identified with same-sex activity.
Also interesting I've had several conversations with Rabbi's both Orthodox and Progressive. now I know nobody will here will care what a progressive on any topic will say so I shall stick with the Orthodox rabbi.
he told me that the way they would treat an actively homosexual person is the same way they would treat a Jew who eats non-kosher food (paticulary shellfish and other such non-kosher food) that the Prohibition of homosexual acts is to'evah (Abomination) and that Christians simply translate that word as Abomination and leave the other 'to'evah's' as something less than an Abomination, making homosexuality to be worse than what the Hebrew Scriptures say. that does not mean that Rabbi agreed with homosexuality, he believes it it totally forbidden, but only inso far as non-kosher food is as well.
the Christian argument against it doesn't stand up very well.

Well the rabbi is wrong.Homosexuality is a poisoning of a human person,
while 'kosher' foods were simply to guard against poisoning of the 'body',which can be
replaced ,but the Human Soul once totally destroyed
can never ever be replaced ,and there is Nothing which destroys the human
soul ,than long term 'sodomy'.
There is a huge fuss in the material world about the 'environment',the physical
one,but God can replace that with anyone a of a million worlds,
What He cannot do is replace the individual soul ,that you have freely given to
the 'devil '. You will have to decide which master you wish to serve,because we
are in an end time, possibly the 'final one' ,and you as well as most of us ,better
be sure you are ready to face the 'Truth'.

 

[underheaven]

Both your summaries seem about right

To add: other apparent "born withs" occur in every era and every culture - heart disease, mental illness, etc. ...

Imo, it is dangerous to make "born with" a norm (normal).

Yes we are all born with 'weaknesses' ,which we can enlarge, or fight against. All murderers,thieves,inappropriate contentographers ,and the rest of us etc are born with their tendance,and it is only the 'gay' lobby' that is 'proud' of theirs.

 

[Trying_to_be_Orthodox]

Cosmic Chi:

There r too many words in your post and current thread also. Sodomy is sin. There is no any reason to debate.
White is white, black is black. I cant try to find in black something whiter that is.

May i am a little bit rude. Sorry. Its influence of my childhood - to call gay was a good reason for small mortal-kombat.

PS "people who try to silence other people"- heh sometimes some people just afraid to drabble in abomination and nothing more.

 

[underheaven]

Exactly, Rus. If it wasn't for the Church preserving what has always been taught, we'd all be immersed and enveloped in our sins without realizing they were sins because He is an unchanging God and this world is not of His Kingdom.

There would be no 'society' at all,just a low life warring,animal like primitive 'people'. There
would have been no advances towards a higher culture,the growth in healthy
populations,in science.The universe of God
works according to a set of laws,which scientists are really just discovering ,but
which were broadly known to those who were already close to God,since they have
existed since 'creation' [a very long time ago]As humanity obeys Christ he and his
society rise,less souls go back to 'hell' ,and the last 'gift' is that of learning HOW TO
[science] enter into
'knowledge' of the material workings of the universe.God allows us this
'gift' of universal communication that we might ALL hear His word,connect
to each other and know His power,Intelligence,to add to knowledge of His
Love which we all know about and have recieved already.
Homosexuality is part of a disconnection through arrogance, pride in their intelligence,
of a type of human who conciously or unconciously, wishes to 'create' their own version
of non- creativity,their version of REALITY.
The main thing they suffer from and will be their undoing is a limited sense
of How creation works,and it is both emotional and intellectual.They do not SEE in the distance,
''over the hill', like atheists, which most, are. Attached only to the material world,and
cannot imagine beyond that.

I am going to add that I think mainstream christianity has been too narrow
and contributed to 'thinking' people being kept out of the churches and becoming rebels
who hate all religion.Some of these become homosexual,
and force unthinking christians ,to be less lazy ,intellectually.

The negative sometimes has a purpose to stimulate reaction.

I have myself suffered a great deal from 'dull' christian's teaching . :o

 

[rusmeister]

I have read some Chesterton, although never that book. I will check it out. Although I prefer CS Lewis

CS Lewis was my co- pilot who guided me back to faith and helped me see it's intellectual superiority over unbelief. I have nothing but respect for the man and STILL enjoy reading him. But when I later discovered Chesterton, I gradually began to realize that I was in the presence, not merely of great intelligence, but of out-and-out genius, with a reach of foresight that exceeds Lewis's - which is saying something. I later extensively compared the two and came to the conclusion that Lewis had consciously made a serious error - he saw the Church as unimportant; that a person could "come to Christ" yet any old church would do. (please don't jump on that oversimplification - i am trying to be simple and short). Chesterton strongly disagreed, and insisted that the Church matters very much; that we most truly know Christ by discovering the Church.
Chesterton's much more forgivable error was in deciding it to be the Church of Rome. In the West 100 years ago, very little was known about Orthodoxy, and GKC's sources of info on it were... Catholic.

I don't think preference is a deciding factor in truth. In style, yes, but even here, as I said, GKC is funny. Lewis's one point of superiority is that, as a straight-line logician,, he's easier to read, and so can appeal to a wider audience. (but it is not flattering to us to see ourselves as unable to understand Chesterton - something I don't think true, anyway. I think Chesterton's thoroughness of thought - that he thinks abbot the different sides of a question so completely (as opposed to my effort to "get to the point") is often mistaken for mere long-windedness.

 

[Thekla]

lol well I knew I was homosexual (though I didn't have the word for it) by the time I was 5 lol the only one who 'poisoned' me is God lol
but frankly I look on it as a gift. I'm happy that I'm gay and I wouldn't want to be any other way than the way God made me.
it's sad that in this day and age people will still use the bible to justify their bigotry...there is no difference between you guys using the bible to justify homosexual hatred and suppression of our right and those who sought to keep institutionalization slavery, or apartheid on the political landscape.

I think this is an awfully wide sweep; a generalization.

How is equating whatever it is you complain about comparable to slavery, which I would think you have not experienced.

if you read the bible you will find justification of both Slavery and apartheid. it took afew extraordinary people ( people like Quakers who don't take the bible literary.) who eventually convinced the rest of 'bible Christians' that slavery was against God's will. it didn't happen cause the bible said to abolish the evil of slavery. it took people who looked beyond the bible to decide it was morally wrong!
and also no the rabbi wasn't wrong. that was the Hebrew Religion, and there are testimonies to that fact out side of the bible and from pre-christian times to justify their line of reasoning. of you read the prohibition in the original Hebrew you will find that the Torah don't single out same-sex relations as an abomination in any special way. it lumps it into the same category as non-kosher foods. Bible Translations have been altered by bishops and Emperors who had political agenda's. and it's the same for today. I dont deny the bible forbids same-sex relations, but if you believe that you've also gota believe that eating shellfish is an abomination, or that slavery is moral (heck paul thought so) and that God really ordered the Hebrews to commit genocide (and if you believe that then perhaps the Turks just did God's work during the Armenian Genocide)
the bible is not a very moral book. and whilst it is the basis of my faith I believe Jesus is calling us all to think outside of the book.

The slavery of Biblical times was not entirely like the slavery of more recent eras. It was not atypically a way of settling outstanding debt, and was subject to Jubilee. IE, though in some ways repugnant, it was more like the more recent phenomenon of indentured servitude.

Nor did Paul call slavery "moral".

As to the Levitical laws, there are in Judaism two sorts of laws.
The ceremonial (iirc the appellation), and the moral laws.

Would you suggest also relaxing the incest and inappropriate behavior with animals laws ?

 

[Dorothea]

people who try to silence other people are really just saying they're afraid of the truth and honest and open debate.
As a gay man and as an Orthodox Christian I am entitled to enter into the debate to keep it both balanced and real! ...rather than it becoming an all-straight Orthodox-hate fest

I don't know if you're for real, but to say you're an Orthodox Christian and are proud to act upon same sex attractions or passions misrepresents Orthodoxy. We as Orthodox, are to combat our passions, whatever they may be, not bask in them. To do so is not struggling to live the life of an Orthodox Christian.

We all are sinners, we all fall. The difference is knowing what sins are and what our particular sins are, and to struggle to overcome them to grow closer to God. If we are not doing this, we cannot call ourselves Christians - followers of Christ - as that's part of being Christian.

 

[Dorothea]

I am indeed a Orthodox Christian;born and breed Ukie Orthodox!
however whilst I have my faith I'm also realistic.
once you become a monastic and overcome your god given inclinations to be heterosexual then u can tell me all about struggling to overcome passions.

let me tell you people something about homosexuals, we're regular people. some of us have faith in God, some of us are Atheists, we hold down regular jobs, we pay our taxes. we have families and we fall in love the same as you do. some of us are promiscuous others believe sex should be shared only between 2 people who love each other. some of us are Greeks, some of us club-goers. some want to get married other couldn't care if they find mister or misses right. some of us are great with Kids, others would be totally terrified if they had to change a nappy.
we're the same as you are!!! and you can't hide behind the bible much longer to justify your bigotry. the world is changing
the people who wanted to to keep Black people segregated used the bible to justify their bigotry as well, look how far it got them!!!

Nobody said you weren't humans like the rest of us. Nobody said you don't struggle like the rest of us. We all have our crosses to bear. Some different than others.

You are now saying I am to become a monastic as a married woman who was married in the sacrament of marriage in the Church. This is holy as well as being a monastic. I was not lead to be a monastic, but we are all to be ascetics.

When I answered your post (and even your original post you started out with here) is that the difference is STRUGGLING AGAINST, COMBATING sins/passions, not being proud of them. This what you had said from the beginning. So, how you can come back and say I or others should become monastics, makes no sense to me.

You either are trying to combat your passions and overcome them, or you're not. PERIOD. We are called to do so.

 

[Thekla]

Cute: comparing a voluntary activity (sex) with an involuntary trait (skin color).

 

[Dorothea]

Cute: comparing a voluntary activity (sex) with an involuntary trait (skin color).

Indeed.

 

[Dorothea]

and I'm called in be in a rship with another man. i have been for many years now. I too was not called to be a monastic.

God doesn't call anybody to be in sexual relations with the same gender. This is not of His teachings. This is one following their own desires and misrepresenting what is written in the Scriptures to suit their own desires.

It happens quite often, and not just with homosexuality.