Psychiatry and Orthodoxy: Nope Homosexuality is not normal

Gregorios

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lol are u saying that slavery to pay a debt is acceptable behavior???
a slave is a slave, and the owners of slaves could sell husbands and wives and children. it may have been ok 2400 yrs ago, but it isn't today.

It should also be known that the Church both East and West endorsed slavery based on the bible accounts supporting it. and even refused communion to run-away slaves.

this behavior is not acceptable, nor do I think it was ever pleasing to God, rather human's invoked Gods name to support it cause lets face it, whos going to argue with a God who approves of Slavery!!!
Your views are decidedly UnOrthodox, it is quite obvious you are suffering from vanity and pride..you think you can just do what is "natural" to you and it's ok? It's "natural" for me to want to sleep with women, I am not married, were I to do so it would be sin equal to that of sodomy or murder, that is reality. You want the 2,000 year old Church to change It's views to accommodate you, not going to happen. The Church is supposed to change you, not the other way around. You can rage at us, call us bigots, do what you like, reality is as it is and not you, nor I, will change that. I'm a sinner just like you, worse than you in fact, but the difference is, I can see the reality you cannot, I will pray for you to be illumined, pray for me too ok? please.
 
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Thekla

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lol are u saying that slavery to pay a debt is acceptable behavior???
This is what I said: IE, though in some ways repugnant, it was more like the more recent phenomenon of indentured servitude.
a slave is a slave, and the owners of slaves could sell husbands and wives and children. it may have been ok 2400 yrs ago, but it isn't today.
Didn't say this was okay, but I do not read where God approved of such sales.

It should also be known that the Church both East and West endorsed slavery based on the bible accounts supporting it. and even refused communion to run-away slaves.
You'll need more than a generalization.
Indentured slavery to repay debt is based on repayment of an actual debt.
I would think the Church would also encourage us not to shirk repaying money owed.
this behavior is not acceptable, nor do I think it was ever pleasing to God, rather human's invoked Gods name to support it cause lets face it, whos going to argue with a God who approves of Slavery!!!

No-one has argued that God approves slavery.
Including slavery to sin.
 
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Gregorios

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my sexuality isn't voluntary. anymore than your is.

oh and I know what your going say "it's not that your homosexual but cause u choise to act upon it"

well let me tell u something about the bible and homosexuality....homosexuality isn't found in the scriptures only male2male sex acts (somehow God forgot about Lesbians in the Torah...funny that, sounds like it was written by a str8 man to me)

but cause it it doesn't address homosexuality as an orientation there is a *possibility* that God not only condemns the act but the inclinations as well. since we know that some people are born homosexual how fair a God would Jesus really be???
of course cause the bible doesn't understand homosexuality as a sexual orientation the exact opposite is possible as well and the bible is talking about straight men who engage is homosexual acts.
truth is scholars dont know which way it's suppose to be taken

since we no longer believe that slavery is a good and moral thing or stoning of non-virgin women, I think it's clear that the bible is not exactly a good source of our morality.
Sounds like you believe in Sola Scriptura, that's also not Orthodox.
 
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Gregorios

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lol I'm defiantly not a believer in Sola Scriptura. but I do believe in keeping up to date with modern understanding in Bible history and translation and applying reason to scripture.
God gave humans the ability to reason as well. Scripture is only one of the ways God talks to us, Yes the church is another way in which Christ speaks to us. but Reason and logic as well as an intimate experiences of God are important as well.
Ah ok, but you know better than the Church right? I mean we're outdated, we need to change and you know just how we should change right? You're the voice of God! God speaks through you! Let us put you on our shoulders and make you Pope! Sorry, my friend, your words are not full of truth and love, rather they are full of pride and self-love. I still maintain, however, that you are a better person than I, so while I say things to correct you or hope that you see the truth that the Church teaches, I think you'll get into Heaven well before me.
 
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Thekla

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my sexuality isn't voluntary. anymore than your is.
Acting on it is.

oh and I know what your going say "it's not that your homosexual but cause u choise to act upon it"
Said it previously, and again (above).

well let me tell u something about the bible and homosexuality....homosexuality isn't found in the scriptures only male2male sex acts (somehow God forgot about Lesbians in the Torah...funny that, sounds like it was written by a str8 man to me)

Yes, and rabbinic literature recognizes this as well.
(You can research Midrash etc. on the topic; some sources are now available online.)

but cause it it doesn't address homosexuality as an orientation there is a *possibility* that God not only condemns the act but the inclinations as well. since we know that some people are born homosexual how fair a God would Jesus really be???
Homosexuality wasn't conceptualized as an "orientation" til recently; of course it would not be discussed as an orientation, but as an action.
of course cause the bible doesn't understand homosexuality as a sexual orientation the exact opposite is possible as well and the bible is talking about straight men who engage is homosexual acts.
truth is scholars dont know which way it's suppose to be taken
The action is condemned, and in general embracing temptation even without action is also problematic (NT). It is battling temptation and resulting action (both) that we are called to.
since we no longer believe that slavery is a good and moral thing or stoning of non-virgin women, I think it's clear that the bible is not exactly a good source of our morality.

The OT is developmental, the NT is its fulfillment.

(Actually, you might want to research how frequently people were dealt with to the full extent of the law. In reality, the grievousness of the sin is expressed in the degree of punishment; the en-action of punishment was up to the judges. )

Per your claim of the OT as an insufficient moral guide, do you think incest and inappropriate behavior with animals should also be legalized ?
 
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underheaven

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Ah ok, but you know better than the Church right? I mean we're outdated, we need to change and you know just how we should change right? You're the voice of God! God speaks through you! Let us put you on our shoulders and make you Pope! Sorry, my friend, your words are not full of truth and love, rather they are full of pride and self-love. I still maintain, however, that you are a better person than I, so while I say things to correct you or hope that you see the truth that the Church teaches, I think you'll get into Heaven well before me.
I am upset that you think he will get into heaven before you.
It does not seem to be true at all for you are very clear ,and know the truth.
Why can you not forgive yourself ?It in itself is a kind of insult to
Jesus.Have you read Yanceys 'What's so amazing about Grace? :wave::confused:
 
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Dorothea

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I am upset that you think he will get into heaven before you.
It does not seem to be true at all for you are very clear ,and know the truth.
Why can you not forgive yourself ?It in itself is a kind of insult to
Jesus.Have you read Yanceys 'What's so amazing about Grace? :wave::confused:

Lest we get prideful, we must humble ourselves, even in reprimanding our neighbor.
 
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rusmeister

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On the debate with our friend cosmic chi: it IS a debate. As such, I'd like to ask a mod to move this thread - or better still, the interactions with cosmic chi - to St Justin's.

In our sub-forum statements, it is clearly stated that there is no debate within the Church on this issue; individuals who claim to be Orthodox and wish to challenge Church teaching are schismatic and cannot be in communion in good faith with the Church.

I see no reason to argue with someone whose mind is made up and who wishes to sew heresy among us (which he, of course, does not see as heresy but sees himself as the Enlightener of the Church).

To under heaven: you should understand that the idea of forgiving ourselves is alien to Orthodoxy. We cannot "forgive ourselves" any more than we can not give eternal life to ourselves. The verb, by definition, is transitive. We need forgiveness from God and our neighbor - not from ourselves. The very idea of forgiving oneself leads quickly to "forgiving oneself" all kinds of abomination. The Orthodox view is "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner!", not "Me, have mercy on me!".
 
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Andrew12

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370_46930cc56ea2b.gif

MOD HAT ON



THIS THREAD HAS UNDERGONE A MINI CLEAN-UP. IF YOU NOTICE THAT A POST OF YOURS IS MISSING, IT HAS BEEN REMOVED AS PART OF THE CLEAN UP.​

CHRISTIAN FORUMS RULES FOUND HERE

THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR COOPERATION & UNDERSTANDING ON THIS MATTER.

MOD HAT OFF
 
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underheaven

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On the debate with our friend cosmic chi: it IS a debate. As such, I'd like to ask a mod to move this thread - or better still, the interactions with cosmic chi - to St Justin's.

In our sub-forum statements, it is clearly stated that there is no debate within the Church on this issue; individuals who claim to be Orthodox and wish to challenge Church teaching are schismatic and cannot be in communion in good faith with the Church.

I see no reason to argue with someone whose mind is made up and who wishes to sew heresy among us (which he, of course, does not see as heresy but sees himself as the Enlightener of the Church).

To under heaven: you should understand that the idea of forgiving ourselves is alien to Orthodoxy. We cannot "forgive ourselves" any more than we can not give eternal life to ourselves. The verb, by definition, is transitive. We need forgiveness from God and our neighbor - not from ourselves. The very idea of forgiving oneself leads quickly to "forgiving oneself" all kinds of abomination. The Orthodox view is "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner!", not "Me, have mercy on me!".
I agree that first God must forgive us ,and anyone we have transgressed,
but some people like to make martyrs of themselves 'for effect',or the appearence of humility,
which fools no one but themselves.
I don't know if the Orthodox church teaches the lesson of the 'whited sepulchres',but I
shall be looking it up now. :D
Is the internet not a wonderful God given gift.:confused:
 
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Protoevangel

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I agree that first God must forgive us ,and anyone we have transgressed,
but some people like to make martyrs of themselves 'for effect',or the appearence of humility,which fools no one but themselves.
I don't know if the Orthodox church teaches the lesson of the 'whited sepulchres',but I shall be looking it up now. :D
Is the internet not a wonderful God given gift.:confused:
Please be careful when judging another person's heart.

I think it is sad that what you see is him being a hypocrite (whitewashed sepulcher). What I see as a man doing what he knows is the right thing to do. What does Paul command of us? "Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself." (Philippians 2:3)

Look again at the post you are complaining about. He does not hold back from chastising his brother. But in his love for God and his love for his brother, he does not exalt himself over his brother, but he lowers himself to be the servant of him who he is correcting.

Do you doubt his sincerity? Do you think he is just "pretending" to be humble? Let me remind you that love is an action, not a feeling. He was doing what he knows is right, regardless of how he felt. That is maturity, not hypocrisy. Let me share a paragraph with you from C. S. Lewis' Mere Christianity to illustrate my point:
Why? What is the good of pretending to be what you are not? Well, even on the human level, you know, there are two kinds of pretending. There is a bad kind, where the pretence is there instead of the real thing; as when a man pretends he is going to help you instead of really helping you. But there is also a good kind, where the pretence leads up to the real thing. When you are not feeling particularly friendly but know you ought to be, the best thing you can do, very often, is to put on a friendly manner and behave as if you were a nicer person than you actually are. And in a few minutes, as we have all noticed, you will be really feeling friendlier than you were. Very often the only way to get a quality in reality is to start behaving as if you had it already. That is why children's games are so important. They are always pretending to be grown-ups-playing soldiers, playing shop. But all the time, they are hardening their muscles and sharpening their wits, so that the pretence of being grown-up helps them to grow up in earnest.
So once again... Just be careful when you judge the heart of a brother. The real problem may very well be you judging according to the flesh (cf. John 8:15).
 
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underheaven

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I'm not disagreeing with you, but fact is that civil marriage has nothing to do with religion at this point. I personally think Christianity has better things to worry about than whether an imaginary trademark on the word "marriage" is being violated.
The laws we create within society set the tone for all .We make law against stealing ,prostitution ,drunk driving,parking on the pavement,and many more .We make unwritten laws about behaviour for our
children especially,as well as ourselves which 'set the tone' of our daily lives.
In the universe the laws of creation of planets ,and cells and so on are so finely tuned that if they are changed by a relatively tiny amount the universe takes a huge dive into chaos.The same kind of law applies to humans and human behaviour.We are governed by laws which if we are to function as HUMAN BEINGS then we must follow very closely.The reason we have reached the level of advanced society that we have in the west is because we have followed closely WHETHER WE WANTED TO OR NOT the rules of our Lord Jesus Christ.The role of the major churches has been fulfilled in that they have both lead and inspired ,and also like good parents 'disciplined 'us to 'save' our souls.The homosexuals who are 'rebels',stuck in an infantile egoistic inablity to 'see' the bigger picture
for they refuse to do what we must ALL do recognise and face our DEMONS,and ask our God to to
forgive us,Change us ,and bring us into His Light. They have made a very deliberate campaign to
force us to a false way of thinking.
I have mentioned a book which people should read called 'the pink swastika',by Scott Lively.
A neccessary read to understand
what we are facing .:liturgy:
 
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underheaven

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Please be careful when judging another person's heart.

I think it is sad that what you see is him being a hypocrite (whitewashed sepulcher). What I see as a man doing what he knows is the right thing to do. What does Paul command of us? "Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself." (Philippians 2:3)

Look again at the post you are complaining about. He does not hold back from chastising his brother. But in his love for God and his love for his brother, he does not exalt himself over his brother, but he lowers himself to be the servant of him who he is correcting.

Do you doubt his sincerity? Do you think he is just "pretending" to be humble? Let me remind you that love is an action, not a feeling. He was doing what he knows is right, regardless of how he felt. That is maturity, not hypocrisy. Let me share a paragraph with you from C. S. Lewis' Mere Christianity to illustrate my point:
So once again... Just be careful when you judge the heart of a brother. The real problem may very well be you judging according to the flesh (cf. John 8:15).
You should always read the post being replied to .It was not me who 'judged'. I never judge, although I may comment.And as a teacher, humour is better than heavy handed quoting .I will not read Chesterton at your 'command'.I do not need to ,thank you,but this will be my last post on the Eastern Orthodox forum I think we should agree to disagree.
:pray:

Perhaps it would do you well to lighten up a bit.It is impossible to reply to
a post like this one. It is exaggerated and out of balance.
 
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Dorothea

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I agree that first God must forgive us ,and anyone we have transgressed,
but some people like to make martyrs of themselves 'for effect',or the appearence of humility,
which fools no one but themselves.
I don't know if the Orthodox church teaches the lesson of the 'whited sepulchres',but I
shall be looking it up now. :D
Is the internet not a wonderful God given gift.:confused:
Well, I don't believe that's what Greg or I or anyone else was doing. We were keeping our pride in check, as this is part of discerning our thoughts and words/typed words.

Taking our egos/pride too seriously is never a concern because it can never be taken too seriously, as you know what happened with pride throughout the history of God's created beings.
 
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rusmeister

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Hi underheaven,
(even if you ARE done posting) we have a concept of putting on Christ, not as we personally imagine it, but via the mind of the Church. That means that we enter the Church as broken beings, and must learn different ways.

I can see no other reason for your mentioning "whitewashed sepulchers" except as a way of expressing judgement of hypocrisy against (at least) some of us. So PE's response is entirely warranted, until you give a plausible explanation for your words that clears up the misunderstanding.

I also don't get why you chide him for offering CS Lewis (not Chesterton) to you to consider when you are offering Scott Lively. The former are world-famous apologists acknowledged by hundreds of millions of Christians of all stripes for 50-100 years, famous for their intellect, wit, and above all, charity. What I found on Lively is not very flattering to him by comparison (I do not speak of his positions so much, but slamming a woman (even if she IS a gay activist) into a wall and dragging her across the floor speaks volumes about how he sees gays, and it is quite far from an Orthodox view. If I am to judge which of these people is more worthy of reading and more likely to be speaking truth, I'll stick with L&C. It's not so important that none of them are/were Orthodox; it's much more important the extent to which they are in line with the mind of the Orthodox Church (by which I mean the thing past and present).

It's less important, but your whole idea of laws is casuistry - you're a victim of mixing metaphorical and literal meaning. Laws of nature are not laws given by humans. The former use of the word describes absolute forms of behavior of physical objects in the natural world. Human laws, by contrast, are arbitrary commands by authority to attempt to establish a certain form of society - and these laws certainly may be, and are broken on a regular basis.

When you say "we" are "advanced", I immediately ask, "in what way?" It is common in our time to confuse technological advancement with moral improvement. In what way are we better than our ancestors? How do those ways (which most often wind up degrading
more than improving us) get us closer to Christ and eternal salvation? Does the fact that I have an iPad and access to Wikipedia mean that I am better than Simon Peter because he had the "misfortune" of living 2,000 years ago in a more primitive society? Am I "more advanced" than he? I think there IS truth in what you say - the Christian ideals, even if imposed by force of law, will have beneficial effects on society. But to speak of "advance" is to imply progress in an agreed-upon direction that is good, and it is evident to me that we now live in a post-Christian world, where pluralism, the idea that truth is whatever you want it to be, determined by the individual, is the new god. This cannot be considered advance, even by the standards you evidently hold (insofar as I can tell).
 
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