Psychiatry and Orthodoxy: Nope Homosexuality is not normal

[27B6]

Postmodernism deconstructs itself, as it is merely a social construct of social constructs constructing nonsensical socials, and will inevitably disappear in a puff of logic. (Yes, my sentence makes perfect sense). Unfortunately, it does a lot of damage in society by sowing massive confusion allowing those lacking integrity or virtue to manipulate the chaos to their own designs.

 

[rusmeister]

Postmodernism deconstructs itself, as it is merely a social construct of social constructs constructing nonsensical socials, and will inevitably disappear in a puff of logic. (Yes, my sentence makes perfect sense). Unfortunately, it does a lot of damage in society by sowing massive confusion allowing those lacking integrity or virtue to manipulate the chaos to their own designs.

QFT.
Did anybody take on Chesterton's essay? Or should I post that in another thread?

 

[Dorothea]

This story on pedophilia is pretty disturbing.

Breaking News » Blog Archive » Prominent Academics to Attend Pro-Pedophilia Conference this Week

Experts from Harvard and Johns Hopkins University will be among the panelists participating in a conference this week that aims at removing pedophilia from the American Psychiatric Association’s (APA) list of mental illnesses, even though removal of the condition could lead to the decriminalization of pedophilia.

The Daily Caller (TheDC) is reporting that the August 17 conference, which will take place in Baltimore, is sponsored by B4U-ACT, a group of pro-pedophile mental health professionals and activists. The group wants to have pedophilia removed from the APA’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), which is set to be revised by 2013.

The conference brochure states that the event will examine “ways in which minor-attracted [pedophiles] can be involved in the DSM 5 revision process” and how to reform people’s opinions of pedophiles to encourage tolerance.

“What purpose does calling someone a ‘pervert’ or ‘predator’ serve anyway, other than to express contempt and hatred?” wrote B4U-ACT director of operations Dr. Richard Kramer in a March 14, 2009 blog entry on the website ReformSexOffenderLaws.org. “How is this productive? It certainly doesn’t protect children. I would urge all SO [sex offender] activists to listen to their own message: Stop buying into and promoting false stereotypes. Stop demonizing a whole class of people, and start learning the facts.”

**The rest can be read in the link.


Towards the end of the article, the author says this:

She warns that declassifying pedophilia as a mental illness could result in the repeal of child-protection statutes because the law always follows the input of psychiatry. She points to psychiatry’s normalization of sadomasochism, exhibitionism, and homosexuality as precedents.

And hearing from a friend just a few days ago that in some countries, their governments are lifting the crime of incest from their books. It's only a matter of time before all of this is looked upon as not bad, unfortunately.

I know some will think I'm nuts for thinking this, but I don't think so. When you think back to the times in the OT when there were no judges, when God wasn't in their lives, a lot of this was taking place, along with other things. It's not unheard of, no matter how "advanced" this world thinks it is.

 

[Thekla]

Because, apparently, there is no such thing as men and women. They are social constructs designed to keep women oppressed.

I kid you not. The differences between men and women are alleged to be simply social constructs.

Ai yi yi !

So every "norm" (as in average/standard) is eroded; it's as if the culture of evolution is leading us backwards into a state of primordial soup

 

[Gwendolyn]

Yeah, Dorothea, that article is disturbing. However, the APA is not sponsoring that conference and is not supporting that group's efforts. It is a group of rogue psychiatrists who are trying to push their agenda.

The APA can be sketchy when it comes to sexual deviancy, but it is invaluable in other areas of mental illness and such.

 

[Dorothea]

Yeah, Dorothea, that article is disturbing. However, the APA is not sponsoring that conference and is not supporting that group's efforts. It is a group of rogue psychiatrists who are trying to push their agenda.

The APA can be sketchy when it comes to sexual deviancy, but it is invaluable in other areas of mental illness and such.

Thanks for the info, Gwen.

 

[ikonographics]

This is a very interesting story from a site for EX-GAYS, written by the daughter of lesbian mothers. PFOX - Sperm Bank Children Tell Stories

 

[rusmeister]

This is a very interesting story from a site for EX-GAYS, written by the daughter of lesbian mothers. PFOX - Sperm Bank Children Tell Stories

A big minus is that there is no name attached to the story. Anonymous stories are much harder to hold up as any kind of evidence; what we need are people brave enough to come out and identify themselves - and it IS often brave to do so. Without that opponents can immediately dismiss the story as a fabrication.

 

[Dorothea]

Institution of Marriage is linked to Children for the Sake of Children


CANBERRA 24 August 2011 In an extraordinary show of unity, more than 50 Australian national leaders of Christian Churches endorsed a document on the importance of marriage as a legal institution because it promotes and protects the identity of children and their internationally recognised right to know, have access to and be nurtured by both their mother and father.

Institution of Marriage is linked to Children for the Sake of Children

 

[underheaven]

Yes, man to man friendship does not automatically advocate homosexuality.

Of course not ,it never was except for this campaign to malign people
by implying that all same sex relations /friendships are poisoned by
this 'taint'. You cannot be single now without this in the air.
But it is part of the 'trial',and since I think it is also a big and neccessary learning curve for people,
who do not want take responsiblity for their
own spiritual path,and lean too heavily on the church.They must learn
to stand up for what they believe.

 

[Dorothea]

Here's an article I found on FB that was recently posted:


A small excerpt:

1. Homosexuality is a behavior, not a feeling or orientation. Therefore, one is not a "homosexual" until one chooses, according to free will, to do something that is contrary to human nature and that is in disharmony with the Way that leads to the healing and perfection of the human person. Of course, a person can commit a sin in the mind by willing to act before the full action is carried out, but sexual temptation, whether opposite-sex or same-sex, is not sin when the tempting thought is dismissed and rejected. Therefore, a "homosexual" is not one who feels same-sex attraction, but one commits a sexual sin with a person of the same sex. This is similarly true for adultery. An "adulterer" is one who commits adultery, not one who feels attracted to those other than his or her spouse if he or she dismisses the temptation and remains steadfastly faithful to the spouse. No matter what form of temptation, whether opposite-sex or same-sex, one may face, we are called to treat our bodies as holy temples and only express the beautiful gift of sexual expression within the context of marriage, a union between a man and woman. So, we are all called to chastity - celibacy outside of marriage and fidelity within marriage, whatever our place in life.

In our secular society, "homosexuality" has been redefined, not as a behavior contrary to good spiritual, mental, and physical health, but as an "orientation" central to a person's identity.

The Orthodox Way of Medicine: Notes on Helping Those With Same-Sex Temptations

 

[underheaven]

Ai yi yi !

So every "norm" (as in average/standard) is eroded; it's as if the culture of evolution is leading us backwards into a state of primordial soup

I asked this question on a politics forum with lots of atheists,many of
whom would have come from Catholic backgrounds,and were being silly and
rude about belief in God,claiming that there had been other gods etc
Here is the question ''Why do think that since approximately 27 A.D.
the population of the world has increased from 240/50 milllion to 7 billion
today?
I will not give the answer ,but hope that someone might reply.
It is questions like these that intrigue,interesse young geek types
and they are my target.

 

[rusmeister]

Here's an article I found on FB that was recently posted:


A small excerpt:

1. Homosexuality is a behavior, not a feeling or orientation. Therefore, one is not a "homosexual" until one chooses, according to free will, to do something that is contrary to human nature and that is in disharmony with the Way that leads to the healing and perfection of the human person. Of course, a person can commit a sin in the mind by willing to act before the full action is carried out, but sexual temptation, whether opposite-sex or same-sex, is not sin when the tempting thought is dismissed and rejected. Therefore, a "homosexual" is not one who feels same-sex attraction, but one commits a sexual sin with a person of the same sex. This is similarly true for adultery. An "adulterer" is one who commits adultery, not one who feels attracted to those other than his or her spouse if he or she dismisses the temptation and remains steadfastly faithful to the spouse. No matter what form of temptation, whether opposite-sex or same-sex, one may face, we are called to treat our bodies as holy temples and only express the beautiful gift of sexual expression within the context of marriage, a union between a man and woman. So, we are all called to chastity - celibacy outside of marriage and fidelity within marriage, whatever our place in life.

In our secular society, "homosexuality" has been redefined, not as a behavior contrary to good spiritual, mental, and physical health, but as an "orientation" central to a person's identity.

The Orthodox Way of Medicine: Notes on Helping Those With Same-Sex Temptations

What can be said when that, indeed, defines the whole problem?

I think I can iterate what I said about our learning to reject the false language that we are taught to speak. Stop saying "gay" and even, yes, "homosexual". Learn how our ancestors spoke of this, as well as the charitable modern term "same-sex attraction", and stop speaking like the world does. Their arguments depend heavily on the use of the verb "be". Undercut that, and they are left with nothing in particular to stand on.

"I .... ....."

Without the verb "to be" and the corrupted adjective "gay", they are at enormous difficulty to describe themselves in a way that justifies what they choose to do (based on the attraction and desires that they experience).

 

[Dorothea]

What can be said when that, indeed, defines the whole problem?

I think I can iterate what I said about our learning to reject the false language that we are taught to speak. Stop saying "gay" and even, yes, "homosexual". Learn how our ancestors spoke of this, as well as the charitable modern term "same-sex attraction", and stop speaking like the world does. Their arguments depend heavily on the use of the verb "be". Undercut that, and they are left with nothing in particular to stand on.

"I .... ....."

Without the verb "to be" and the corrupted adjective "gay", they are at enormous difficulty to describe themselves in a way that justifies what they choose to do (based on the attraction and desires that they experience).

 

[underheaven]

Postmodernism deconstructs itself, as it is merely a social construct of social constructs constructing nonsensical socials, and will inevitably disappear in a puff of logic. (Yes, my sentence makes perfect sense). Unfortunately, it does a lot of damage in society by sowing massive confusion allowing those lacking integrity or virtue to manipulate the chaos to their own designs.

I note that we come from the same area.

 

[ajunkyarddog]

My little cousin always had more interest in girly toys when he was a kid. He wanted this bright pink shopping cart with fake food in it for his birthday, wore his hair long, and was overall more sensitive than his 2 very boyish brothers.We were a little concerned, but mostly just found it funny, and we bought him all the girly-ish toys he wanted and didnt bring anything up that it was "wrong" as that would have confused him.
You say you had fine parents, but you also say that at a very very young age you were subject to multiple gender reinforcement methods. I am sure you knew somehow that you were different, and there was something "wrong" with you according to your parents. we are quite perceptive to that at a young age, and it must have been confusing!

Why do you think that it was not the psychologists that had an effect on your sexual identity? You think there is no possible way?

 

[rusmeister]

I'm and out-and-proud gay Orthodox Christian.
I had a stable family life with a str8 mother and Father, my mother wasn't overbearing nor did I have a absentee father. I was bought up going to Liturgy every Sunday,rain hale or shine.

during the week both parents instilled in me a deep faith with bible stories and christian kids music (owing to my mothers Protestant background) yet from an early stage I showed no interest in 'boy things' like cars, fire engines, kicking balls around with the old man etc. I was more interested in cooking, playing with teddy bears (and never grew out of them lol)
I was the only one in my parish and school who wanted to dress up as the Theotokos during the Christmas Play that we put on every-year.

my parent's were concerned about my feminine interests and took me to not 1 not 2, but 3 psychologists when I was about 6, they wanted to do some kinda gender re-forcment on me and my parents went along with it....until they could see the damage it was doing and how unhappy I was.

I had never heard the term 'gay' or 'homosexual' until I was 11 or 12...but when I heard it and learnt what it meant I knew that's exactly what I was!

there is no way I choose to be gay!
it wasn't environmental, as for genetics, well I'm not a scientist so I won't say anything about it...but I will say this, whilst some of u people are running around trying to make us believe that it's a choice we made, or that its a mental health issue, or that an overbearing mother and a absentee father I can tell u (as can my parents and anyone who has ever known me) that I didn't choose it....I am this way cause that's the way God made me!!!

I think the real reason why Orthodox Christians (and others) have an issue with homosexuality is cause they want so desperately to believe that the bible is perfect....and if u admit we're normal you'll be forced to admit the bible is wrong in this issue! and that would Challenge your faith far too much!

I would not at all argue if you said that you did not choose to be "gay". It is clear to me, if not to all, that many people may experience desires involuntarily.

But there is no dispute within the Orthodox Church about the purpose of the divisions of the sexes and the abnormality of the so-called "gay" "lifestyle". You may think that Orthodox Christians who point out the ancient teachings of the Church are somehow "desperate" for doing so, but it does not make you right. The consistent witness of the entire Church over all of history, so thorough that it was fully shared in what came to be known as "Christianity" until only a few decades ago, states clearly that the homosexual act is sin, it is brokenness, just like all other sin, and nothing to be proud of, but something to be struggled with and fought against.

If you insist otherwise, I guess we'd have to treat you like a "pro-slavery abolitionist" or something. Such an attitude expresses deep dissonance between the particular religion claimed and the affirmation of one's personal desires, whatever they may be. Orthodoxy is a religion where we submit what we think "wise" to the judgement of the Church, and not one where dogmas can be challenged by personal opinion.

I do not use words like "gay" or even "homosexual", as they are modern inventions whose aim is to justify the desire. I would prefer to go back to the language of our ancestors, and speak of sodomy as an act, rather than "gay" as a "natural way of being", but it seems to me that the best modern language formulated within the Church is to say that you suffer from same-sex attraction (whether you perceive it as suffering or not). It is charitable, avoids the appearance of attacking the person (something that some historical language does do), yet accurately describes the nature of the situation. I suffer from other things, myself. The only thing peculiar about your particular brand of suffering is that there is a huge effort in society today to legitimize your particular ill. If they were trying to attain "equal rights" for alcoholics and approval of alcoholism backed by force of law our response would be much the same.

 

[Gregorios]

I would not at all argue if you said that you did not choose to be "gay". It is clear to me, if not to all, that many people may experience desires involuntarily.

But there is no dispute within the Orthodox Church about the purpose of the divisions of the sexes and the abnormality of the so-called "gay" "lifestyle". You may think that Orthodox Christians who point out the ancient teachings of the Church are somehow "desperate" for doing so, but it does not make you right. The consistent witness of the entire Church over all of history, so thorough that it was fully shared in what came to be known as "Christianity" until only a few decades ago, states clearly that the homosexual act is sin, it is brokenness, just like all other sin, and nothing to be proud of, but something to be struggled with and fought against.

If you insist otherwise, I guess we'd have to treat you like a "pro-slavery abolitionist" or something. Such an attitude expresses deep dissonance between the particular religion claimed and the affirmation of one's personal desires, whatever they may be. Orthodoxy is a religion where we submit what we think "wise" to the judgement of the Church, and not one where dogmas can be challenged by personal opinion.

I do not use words like "gay" or even "homosexual", as they are modern inventions whose aim is to justify the desire. I would prefer to go back to the language of our ancestors, and speak of sodomy as an act, rather than "gay" as a "natural way of being", but it seems to me that the best modern language formulated within the Church is to say that you suffer from same-sex attraction (whether you perceive it as suffering or not). It is charitable, avoids the appearance of attacking the person (something that some historical language does do), yet accurately describes the nature of the situation. I suffer from other things, myself. The only thing peculiar about your particular brand of suffering is that there is a huge effort in society today to legitimize your particular ill. If they were trying to attain "equal rights" for alcoholics and approval of alcoholism backed by force of law our response would be much the same.

QFT. And Rus, thank you for being honest and open about the Church's stance on this issue..it saved me some considerable time typing

 

[Protoevangel]

I'm and out-and-proud gay Orthodox Christian.
I had a stable family life with a str8 mother and Father, my mother wasn't overbearing nor did I have a absentee father. I was bought up going to Liturgy every Sunday,rain hale or shine.

during the week both parents instilled in me a deep faith with bible stories and christian kids music (owing to my mothers Protestant background) yet from an early stage I showed no interest in 'boy things' like cars, fire engines, kicking balls around with the old man etc. I was more interested in cooking, playing with teddy bears (and never grew out of them lol)
I was the only one in my parish and school who wanted to dress up as the Theotokos during the Christmas Play that we put on every-year.

my parent's were concerned about my feminine interests and took me to not 1 not 2, but 3 psychologists when I was about 6, they wanted to do some kinda gender re-forcment on me and my parents went along with it....until they could see the damage it was doing and how unhappy I was.

I had never heard the term 'gay' or 'homosexual' until I was 11 or 12...but when I heard it and learnt what it meant I knew that's exactly what I was!

there is no way I choose to be gay!
it wasn't environmental, as for genetics, well I'm not a scientist so I won't say anything about it...but I will say this, whilst some of u people are running around trying to make us believe that it's a choice we made, or that its a mental health issue, or that an overbearing mother and a absentee father I can tell u (as can my parents and anyone who has ever known me) that I didn't choose it....I am this way cause that's the way God made me!!!

I think the real reason why Orthodox Christians (and others) have an issue with homosexuality is cause they want so desperately to believe that the bible is perfect....and if u admit we're normal you'll be forced to admit the bible is wrong in this issue! and that would Challenge your faith far too much!

Welcome to TAW, cosmic_chi.

You really couldn't be more wrong. Nowhere in the Bible are people who choose same-sex activity considered any differently than people who choose to participate in any other sinful activity... Which includes every single one of us.

You may notice that I said "choose same-sex activity", not "who choose to be gay", or anything of the sort. Of course you don't choose how you feel. There is really no sin in how you feel. There is no sin in who you may love. The Bible does not call these things sinful. Who you are is not a problem. Who you love is not a problem. How you choose to express that love, is where problems can come in. This is what the Bible deals with.

If anyone has made you feel less than a fully valued and loved child of God because of who you are or because of how you feel... that evil is on their shoulders, not on you. It sounds like this has been happening since your childhood, with the whole gender re-forcment thing. This had to be traumatic, with them rejecting who you were and how you felt. I am sorry you have had to live through this. It was incredibly unfair.

Just so you know... regarding any activity that may be sinful in your life, related or not to this discussion... It's none of my business. I myself am a mighty sinner. For me to focus on what sin you may or may not be guilty of would be to lose focus on my own sin. Do not expect judgement from me.

On the other hand... To claim that same-sex sexual activity is not sinful... you can expect plenty of opposition. That would not be the same as personal sin... it would be heresy of the worst kind.

Anyway, thank you for speaking up. Sometimes, these kinds of threads can go off on their own, and it's important to remind people that these are not simply theoretical situations that are being discussed, but real people. Welcome again to TAW!

 

[Dorothea]

I would not at all argue if you said that you did not choose to be "gay". It is clear to me, if not to all, that many people may experience desires involuntarily.

But there is no dispute within the Orthodox Church about the purpose of the divisions of the sexes and the abnormality of the so-called "gay" "lifestyle". You may think that Orthodox Christians who point out the ancient teachings of the Church are somehow "desperate" for doing so, but it does not make you right. The consistent witness of the entire Church over all of history, so thorough that it was fully shared in what came to be known as "Christianity" until only a few decades ago, states clearly that the homosexual act is sin, it is brokenness, just like all other sin, and nothing to be proud of, but something to be struggled with and fought against.

If you insist otherwise, I guess we'd have to treat you like a "pro-slavery abolitionist" or something. Such an attitude expresses deep dissonance between the particular religion claimed and the affirmation of one's personal desires, whatever they may be. Orthodoxy is a religion where we submit what we think "wise" to the judgement of the Church, and not one where dogmas can be challenged by personal opinion.

I do not use words like "gay" or even "homosexual", as they are modern inventions whose aim is to justify the desire. I would prefer to go back to the language of our ancestors, and speak of sodomy as an act, rather than "gay" as a "natural way of being", but it seems to me that the best modern language formulated within the Church is to say that you suffer from same-sex attraction (whether you perceive it as suffering or not). It is charitable, avoids the appearance of attacking the person (something that some historical language does do), yet accurately describes the nature of the situation. I suffer from other things, myself. The only thing peculiar about your particular brand of suffering is that there is a huge effort in society today to legitimize your particular ill. If they were trying to attain "equal rights" for alcoholics and approval of alcoholism backed by force of law our response would be much the same.

Exactly, Rus. If it wasn't for the Church preserving what has always been taught, we'd all be immersed and enveloped in our sins without realizing they were sins because He is an unchanging God and this world is not of His Kingdom.