Prove to me that there was a great apostasy

[MormonFriend]

Interesting. I read this post this morning. Then, as I was looking for other information, I "happened" upon this from one of the early church fathers, Justin Martyr. The lds claim restoration to the beliefs of the early church. Here's what Martyr had to say about where "understanding" comes from:

"By Him are the eyes of our hearts opened. By Him our foolish and darkened understanding blossoms154 up anew towards His marvellous light. By Him the Lord has willed that we should taste of immortal knowledge,155 “who, being the brightness of His majesty, is by so much greater than the angels, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.” (Martyr, Chapter XXXVI)

NOTE: Not sure how to reference ECF writings so here's the link:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ii.ii.xxxvi.html

It appears that at least one ECF believes it is Christ who gives us understanding.

My concern would be for those who don't "get it". Have they "got It"?

There is no doubt, nor has there ever been doubt in my mind and heart, that we gain our understanding through God, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And there can be no doubt that scripture tells us of things we must do to obtain understanding. It sounds to me that you might think there is a discrepancy between the two, but there is not. It is so simple. The things we are told to do are the things that bring us to Christ (if we do them with an eye single to His glory, or for the right reasons), so that He can give us understanding.

 

[MormonFriend]

So to you, the scripture reads:
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you (unless it is over non-essentials); but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment (excepting of course those non-essential issues. Ye may enter into disputes and contentions over anything you deem non-essential, for scripture teacheth exactly what is, and what is not essential. Therefore, grow in perfect love and harmony.)

(1 Corinthians1:10 /embellishment added for illustration)

So tell me, please. Who did come up with the term "essential," and who had the wisdom to teach the world that there are things pertaining to God that are not essential?

I am sure you know exactly what I am talking about.

You cannot be saved unless you are baptized in my church. You cannot understand the gospel unless you listen to my version of it. You cannot receive the Holy Ghost unless you have laying on of hands done by members of my priesthood.

That's what I am talking about. That's what I mean by an organization set up by man. Forget that people, for years, have had relationships with God, and God has moved them to do powerful deeds (Mother Teresa comes to mind). If they aren't part of your organization and done things that benefit no one but themselves, they cannot hope to live with God.

You have changed the subject entirely. Perhaps you are responding to another issue accidently.

In your post to me, you acknowledged that there are divisions in Christianity, but you expressed that they were not over matters that are considered "essential," so that made it acceptable. I posted the above in response to your claim that it is acceptable to divide over "non-essential" issues. The word "essential" is not even used biblically, in the KJV. Again I ask you: "So tell me, please. Who did come up with the term "essential," and who had the wisdom to teach the world that there are things pertaining to God that are not essential?"

 

[A New Dawn]

You have changed the subject entirely. Perhaps you are responding to another issue accidently.

In your post to me, you acknowledged that there are divisions in Christianity, but you expressed that they were not over matters that are considered "essential," so that made it acceptable. I posted the above in response to your claim that it is acceptable to divide over "non-essential" issues. The word "essential" is not even used biblically, in the KJV. Again I ask you: "So tell me, please. Who did come up with the term "essential," and who had the wisdom to teach the world that there are things pertaining to God that are not essential?"

I responded with exactly what I thought appropriate to illustrate the types of things I consider essential.

Differing on whether we are predestined or not, or whether we have free will or not are not points that will make or break a case of Christianity. Stating that one can only be saved if one is baptized in a particular church or by a particular person, etc., will.

 

[Swart]

Differing on whether we are predestined or not, or whether we have free will or not are not points that will make or break a case of Christianity.

Actually, I believe this to be exactly the case. I believe Free Will to be an immutable part of God's plan.

Did drstevej convince you to be a calvinist as well?

 

[A New Dawn]

Actually, I believe this to be exactly the case. I believe Free Will to be an immutable part of God's plan.

Did drstevej convince you to be a calvinist as well?

Did he convince someone else to be a calvinist?

There are a couple of petals on the TULIP that I believe in, but cannot say that I believe in all of it. Does that make me a calvinist?

And if I become a calvinist, it is because the scriptures (and not drstevej (or anyone else)) have convinced me.

 

[drstevej]

I believe Free Will to be an immutable part of God's plan.

If you and everybody has a free will.... then calling God's plan immutable must be tongue in cheek.

 

[Swart]

If you and everybody has a free will.... then calling God's plan immutable must be tongue in cheek.

Are you claiming immutable free-will is an oxymormon?

 

[Swart]

There are a couple of petals on the TULIP that I believe in, but cannot say that I believe in all of it. Does that make me a calvinist?

Hmmm. We could make a primary song out of that..

(to the tune of 'Popcorn popping on the apricot tree')
I looked out the windows and what did I see?
Five petals falling off the TULIP tree

And if I become a calvinist, it is because the scriptures (and not drstevej (or anyone else)) have convinced me.

That would imply study independent of the guidance of someone else.

 

[A New Dawn]

Hmmm. We could make a primary song out of that..

(to the tune of 'Popcorn popping on the apricot tree')
I looked out the windows and what did I see?
Five petals falling off the TULIP tree

I've never heard that song before, but it sounds awfully cute.

That would imply study independent of the guidance of someone else.

Or it would imply study with more than one individual. Not everyone I know is a Calvinist.

 

[drstevej]

Are you claiming immutable free-will is an oxymormon?

Nope... immutable plan is the oxmoron if there is free will (as Mormons conceive it).

Now I believe in Free Will...

The "Liver & Onions Parable"

The Reformed Doctrine of Free Will

Suppose you detest L&O. The sight and smell makes you sick.

Just once, to appease the insistence of a friend that L&O really is good tasting, touched your tongue's tip to the L&O and the taste repulsed you.

You are invited to a buffet where a friend suggests you try some L&O. You refuse. He insists that the L&O is wonderful. He takes a bite and smiles saying "Just try it." You say, "No way!"

You freely reject the L&O because of your senses (sight, taste and smell). You do so on this occasion and every occasion it is offered to you. Your action regarding L&O is predictable and certain.

► SUCH is the unregenerate person's free rejection of God because his heart and nature is only evil continuously.

===

Now suppose this L&O loather is supernaturally changed into a L&O lover.

God changes his taste buds as well as olfactory and mental responses. Now, at the buffet he asks his friend, "What smells so good?" He is surprised to find that the great smell comes from a plate of L&O! He is further surprised that it really doesn't look that bad now, in fact it looks good. He is salivating.

He grabs a fork and timidly takes a small bite to his tongue for a test. The test becomes a taste -- then he eats a huge serving. L&O has suddenly become his favorite food. From that day on he looks for L&O whenever he can find it and he specifically requests it. He is a L&O lover now.

He freely and predictably chooses L&O after this craving has been placed upon him by God.

► SUCH is the response of one who is regenerated by receiving a new heart and nature.

====

BTW, in Heaven... Everyone loves L&O. Nothing else is eaten or even desired. All freely savor the smell and taste of L&O forever and ever. Hallelujah!​

​

 

[A New Dawn]

BTW, in Heaven... Everyone loves L&O. Nothing else is eaten or even desired. All freely savor the smell and taste of L&O forever and ever. Hallelujah!

AMEN!

 

[Tawhano]

And if I become a calvinist, it is because the scriptures (and not drstevej (or anyone else)) have convinced me.

If you become a Calvinist then according to their doctrine it will because God picked you long before you were born. It has nothing to do with you at all.

 

[Swart]

If you become a Calvinist then according to their doctrine it will because God picked you long before you were born. It has nothing to do with you at all.

I'm thinking of becoming a solipsist, but there's no point in telling anyone about it.

 

[A New Dawn]

If you become a Calvinist then according to their doctrine it will because God picked you long before you were born. It has nothing to do with you at all.

While that might be true, it will still be decided (for me in the here and now) on the scriptures.

 

[Fit4Christ]

There is no doubt, nor has there ever been doubt in my mind and heart, that we gain our understanding through God, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And there can be no doubt that scripture tells us of things we must do to obtain understanding. It sounds to me that you might think there is a discrepancy between the two, but there is not. It is so simple. The things we are told to do are the things that bring us to Christ (if we do them with an eye single to His glory, or for the right reasons), so that He can give us understanding.

As I see it:

Understanding according to MF = earn by doing (obedience)

Understanding according to F4C = a gift of God, given through His Holy Spirit

I believe that most, if not all, of the early Christian fathers believed the same as I do.

 

[Tawhano]

While that might be true, it will still be decided (for me in the here and now) on the scriptures.

If it is true then it has already been decided one way or the other and your searching the scriptures has nothing to do with it. If you become a Calvinist on your own accord then you aren’t really a Calvinist. It’s one of those catch 22 thingies…

 

[A New Dawn]

If it is true then it has already been decided one way or the other and your searching the scriptures has nothing to do with it. If you become a Calvinist on your own accord then you aren’t really a Calvinist. It’s one of those catch 22 thingies…

So I should just not study the scriptures and see what develops?

 

[drstevej]

If it is true then it has already been decided one way or the other and your searching the scriptures has nothing to do with it. If you become a Calvinist on your own accord then you aren’t really a Calvinist. It’s one of those catch 22 thingies…

Ah, but if God purposes to use the Scripture to impart the truth of sovereign grace as she studies she indeed is a Calvinist™.

 

[A New Dawn]

Ah, but if God purposes to use the Scripture to impart the truth of sovereign grace as she studies she indeed is a Calvinist™.

So I should continue to study the scriptures and see what develops.

I am so confused.

 

[Tawhano]

So I should continue to study the scriptures and see what develops.

Most definitely you should study the scriptures.

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.