Prove to me that there was a great apostasy

[MormonFriend]

Whoever drew the conclusion that a person "dead in their sins" cannot do anything on their part, though limited it may be, to reverse their spiritual status? As I see it, that belief would be the perfect deception tactic.

And the Prophet Joseph Smith's, SBUHN changing the word justified to sanctified in Romans 8:30 and the LDS Church claiming, despite the thousands of manuscripts supporting the reading of the KJV and absolute none supporting the JST, that the changed reading was given by God to restore what was actually meant in the first place.... is NOT deception?

Pehaps we need a Mormon Friendly "Translation"

Don't change the subject on me. If you want an answer to your question, start a thread on it. I may or may not participate. Your claim that JS was deceiving does not change or justify the points I made about the deception trap in believing "mankind not being able to do anything on their part," as I explaind in my previous post.

 

[MormonFriend]

How is what I said hiding knowledge? What I said is what is stated right out in scripture.

I thought I made myself clear. Scripture states many things we must do, to receive knowledge. You state that we cannot do anything, not based from a direct scriptural precept, but from a man made conclusion that if we are dead in our sins, then we are some sort of walking zombies without any source of direction until God chooses them. If a person believes that we cannot do anything, then Satan has them in the perfect trap, for they will not do the things that bring understanding.

Jhn 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

John is specifically referring to the apostleship.

Ephesians is indicating that many things happened before our birth, and the creation of this world. If you wish to believe that we were not there, and that God made up some plan to create some for the purpose of saving, and some for the purpose of damning, and if you feel peace about this, I wish you well, but I cannot fathom such a being and call him a God of Love.

BINGO!

That is because anything else is tantamount to working towards our salvation.

The purpose of the scriptures?
2 Timothy 3:16-1716 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

But, according to your system, the scriptures will not inspire, or teach doctrine to those that God has not chosen. Who are you going to reprove or correct? Even those 'who you suppose that God has already chosen' didn't understand a thing about scripture before they were chosen, because they were dead! How can you even expect me to understand what you are talking to me about? Why waste your time? I am dead! Why did Jesus teach the beattitudes to a bunch of dead people, when nothing would be within their intellectual grip until they were chosen?

To me, your doctrine makes about as much sense as our Senators voting themselves a raise, and I guess that is pretty good on my part for being dead.

 

[drstevej]

To me, your doctrine makes about as much sense as our Senators voting themselves a raise, and I guess that is pretty good on my part for being dead.

Actually, your inability to understand arises out of your self professed deadness.

 

[A New Dawn]

I thought I made myself clear. Scripture states many things we must do, to receive knowledge. You state that we cannot do anything, not based from a direct scriptural precept, but from a man made conclusion that if we are dead in our sins, then we are some sort of walking zombies without any source of direction until God chooses them. If a person believes that we cannot do anything, then Satan has them in the perfect trap, for they will not do the things that bring understanding.

How do you receive knowledge by trying to earn your salvation? I'm not clear how that works.

John is specifically referring to the apostleship.

Silly me! I thought that was counsel given to anyone who calls themselves a disciple.

Let's just chuck it.

Ephesians is indicating that many things happened before our birth, and the creation of this world. If you wish to believe that we were not there, and that God made up some plan to create some for the purpose of saving, and some for the purpose of damning, and if you feel peace about this, I wish you well, but I cannot fathom such a being and call him a God of Love.

You're right. Since this is the language of much of Ephesians, let's just chuck that, too.

But, according to your system, the scriptures will not inspire, or teach doctrine to those that God has not chosen. Who are you going to reprove or correct? Even those 'who you suppose that God has already chosen' didn't understand a thing about scripture before they were chosen, because they were dead! How can you even expect me to understand what you are talking to me about? Why waste your time? I am dead! Why did Jesus teach the beattitudes to a bunch of dead people, when nothing would be within their intellectual grip until they were chosen?

To me, your doctrine makes about as much sense as our Senators voting themselves a raise, and I guess that is pretty good on my part for being dead.

Did I say you are dead? That is not a judgment I can (or will) make.

The call to proclaim the gospel has to go to everyone because we don't know who God has chosen, or when those people will respond to the call. Some people can hear the call once and God regenerates them, some people may have to hear it hundreds of times before they are regenerated.

 

[MormonFriend]

How do you receive knowledge by trying to earn your salvation? I'm not clear how that works.

What do you mean by "earn your salvation?" I never stated such a thing, so why are you asking me?

 

[MormonFriend]

Did I say you are dead? That is not a judgment I can (or will) make.

The call to proclaim the gospel has to go to everyone because we don't know who God has chosen, or when those people will respond to the call. Some people can hear the call once and God regenerates them, some people may have to hear it hundreds of times before they are regenerated.

You joined in with Steve on this issue, sorry, I thought you believed as he did. Soooo, ..... who am I to believe represents true Christianity?

 

[A New Dawn]

What do you mean by "earn your salvation?" I never stated such a thing, so why are you asking me?

MF, this whole discussion has blossomed out of your remark that you can order your conversion to Christianity (your salvation) by taking pre-planned steps (or earning it). What is it you think we are talking about?

 

[A New Dawn]

You joined in with Steve on this issue, sorry, I thought you believed as he did. Soooo, ..... who am I to believe represents true Christianity?

I joined in with Steve? Didn't he join in with me?

I don't think Steve is judging you, either. He is judging LDS doctrine and found it doesn't correlate with Biblical doctrine, and is speaking out against that.

 

[fatboys]

MF, this whole discussion has blossomed out of your remark that you can order your conversion to Christianity (your salvation) by taking pre-planned steps (or earning it). What is it you think we are talking about?

I really try to understand how you can believe that salvation, no matter how you want to interpret the Bible would fall solely on Christ. Are you saying that only those who accept Christ were ever really the ones that were going to accept Christ? That those who were not really going to not accept Christ are here to fill in the gaps for those who do?

 

[A New Dawn]

I really try to understand how you can believe that salvation, no matter how you want to interpret the Bible would fall solely on Christ. Are you saying that only those who accept Christ were ever really the ones that were going to accept Christ? That those who were not really going to not accept Christ are here to fill in the gaps for those who do?

The Bible is full of scriptures pertaining to election. Even our most favorite childhood scripture (John 3:16) speaks squarely of election. The difference is where we draw the line. Or rather, who draws the line.

And no matter where the line is drawn, or who draws it, it clearly points to a whole mess of people that are not (and never were) going to be saved. That is the truth of the matter. But if you believe in a God who is sovereign (and I always have (which is one of the things that gave me problems over the years)), then you have to understand that you might not always understand the why's and wherefore's. (Parts of it are still a bit hard to understand, but not nearly so hard as when I tried to fit conflicting scriptural/doctrinal beliefs into each other like a jigsaw puzzle whose pieces didn't mesh.)

 

[Onesiphorus]

I am curious about the lds belief of apostasy. What exactly did people/church apostate from?

The Jewish people were the chosen people of God. He directed them through the ages (making a covenant with them) and they continuously disobeyed. Did they apostate also? Jesus enters the scene and fulfills the prophecies relating to this chosen people. He also establishes the New Convenant. A covenant that basically does not allow apostasy (it would be a contradiction to say what Jesus has already done can be undone).

Serious questions. I'm looking for understanding when lds comment about the apostasy.

 

[Swart]

I am curious about the lds belief of apostasy. What exactly did people/church apostate from?

Generally, an apostacy is moving either individuals, the organisation or the leadership away from the truth. Eventually, the authourity from God is also lost.

The Jewish people were the chosen people of God. He directed them through the ages (making a covenant with them) and they continuously disobeyed. Did they apostate also?

More or less. Prophets and punishments were sent to bring them back into the fold. In ancient times, apostacy was dealt with physically, by destroying them or removing them from their Land. After Christ, they were cut off spiritually.

There were apostacies in OT times, with prophets being sent to restore the truth and meeting out judgements against those that refused to follow the prophets guidance.

The apostacy of Judaism was almost complete when Jesus began his ministry and was complete at the cross. If the Jews were not apostate, why was Jesus not welcomed?

Jesus enters the scene and fulfills the prophecies relating to this chosen people. He also establishes the New Convenant. A covenant that basically does not allow apostasy (it would be a contradiction to say what Jesus has already done can be undone).

The Apsotacy was predicted by Paul in Thessalonians:
[BIBLE]2 Thessalonians 2:3[/BIBLE]

In fact when speaking to the Galatians, he was surprised at how quickly the apsotacy was occurring:
[BIBLE]Galatians 1:6[/BIBLE]

And to Timothy:
[BIBLE]2 Timothy 1:15[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]2 Timothy 4:4[/BIBLE]

And many other scriptures commenting on it:
[BIBLE]2 Peter 2:1[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]2 Peter 3:17[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]James 4:1[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]1 John 2:18[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]Jude 1:4[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]Revelation 2:2[/BIBLE]

Amos also predicted a spiritual famine:
[BIBLE]Amos 8:11[/BIBLE]

However, by far the best evidence of a general apostacy is the history of Christianity.

 

[MormonFriend]

..... Jesus enters the scene and fulfills the prophecies relating to this chosen people. He also establishes the New Convenant. A covenant that basically does not allow apostasy (it would be a contradiction to say what Jesus has already done can be undone).

To LDS, a covenant is a type of two way contract. There are conditions which make up such an agreement. God will always uphold His promises, but with man, that is a different story. Apostasy could very well be the result of man not keeping his end of the bargin. But the failure of those who break that covenant does not "undo" what Jesus has done for others. It may, however, require a restoration of knowledge, and Priesthood authority to re-establish the covenant relationship between God and His people.

 

[MormonFriend]

....
Did I say you are dead? That is not a judgment I can (or will) make. .....

It sounds to me like you did!

The only thing you can do is nothing. You cannot find the right connection. You cannot apply true faith. You cannot prove anything because someone dead in their sins is incapable of making the first move.

 

[A New Dawn]

It sounds to me like you did!

I don't think so. Just because I said that you cannot pull yourself out of the mud, initiate your own connection (however you choose to phrase it) does not mean that God has not chosen you and you are therefore alive because He reached down and accomplished it.

Please do not put words in my mouth.

 

[MormonFriend]

I joined in with Steve? Didn't he join in with me?

You are absolutely right! I just switched to the hybrid mode and he did join you. But I believe in another thread he first brought up the "dead in your sins" issue.

I don't think Steve is judging you, either. He is judging LDS doctrine and found it doesn't correlate with Biblical doctrine, and is speaking out against that.

Hey, .... I don't get the impression that either of you are judging me. In fact, by the perspective of your beliefs, I know you are trying to do for me that which is consistant to your beliefs to help and love others. But since this thread is regarding apostasy, it would be appropriate to point out that by my perspective, the standards and interpretations by which you "evaluate me" are the results of many many years of mixing scripture with man's wisdom, lacking the essential tool of revelation, or understanding by the Spirit of God, instead of the spirit of man.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 2:9 - 11)

Without constant revelation, man tends to slip back to the default mode.

 

[A New Dawn]

But since this thread is regarding apostasy, it would be appropriate to point out that by my perspective, the standards and interpretations by which you "evaluate me" are the results of many many years of mixing scripture with man's wisdom, lacking the essential tool of revelation, or understanding by the Spirit of God, instead of the spirit of man.

[/font][/i]Without constant revelation, man tends to slip back to the default mode.

You are so stuck within your LDS sphere that you cannot see that the HS guides and directs, and yes, even reveals, to those outside "the faith", that what you call "mixing scripture with man's wisdom, lacking the essential tool of revelation or understanding by the Spirit of God" is really God's constant revelation of Himself to those whom He chooses.

It is really sad to see, MF. Even when I was devoutly RLDS, I would never have said (or believed) something so judgmental against anyone.

I will keep you in my prayers.

 

[MormonFriend]

I don't think so. Just because I said that you cannot pull yourself out of the mud, initiate your own connection (however you choose to phrase it) does not mean that God has not chosen you and you are therefore alive because He reached down and accomplished it.

Please do not put words in my mouth.

Jenda, I would not ever do so. I am just giving you feedback of how your post came across to me. Or in other words: "It sounds to me like you did!"

You told me many things I cannot do, and then concluded why a person, me included, cannot do these things.

"The only thing you can do is nothing. You cannot find the right connection. You cannot apply true faith. You cannot prove anything because someone dead in their sins is incapable of making the first move."

So unless there is another reason I cannot do anything (I didn't see any other options), I must assume you believe I am dead in my sins. Again, I don't take that as being judgemental. If you are presenting the facts as you see them, it would be the facts that are judging me. I just don't see how you have the facts correct.

 

[A New Dawn]

Jenda, I would not ever do so. I am just giving you feedback of how your post came across to me. Or in other words: "It sounds to me like you did!"

You told me many things I cannot do, and then concluded why a person, me included, cannot do these things.

"The only thing you can do is nothing. You cannot find the right connection. You cannot apply true faith. You cannot prove anything because someone dead in their sins is incapable of making the first move."

So unless there is another reason I cannot do anything (I didn't see any other options), I must assume you believe I am dead in my sins. Again, I don't take that as being judgemental. If you are presenting the facts as you see them, it would be the facts that are judging me. I just don't see how you have the facts correct.

It's a pretty far step to go from what I said to what you said I said. You said I said something judgmental. I said nothing of the sort. I stated that the means whereby one is saved is spelled out in the Bible and includes God choosing us and making it happen. Just because it is not accomplished another way doesn't mean that it hasn't happened. You don't have to know, or believe or understand the concept of election to be elect.

 

[MormonFriend]

You are so stuck within your LDS sphere that you cannot see that the HS guides and directs, and yes, even reveals, to those outside "the faith", that what you call "mixing scripture with man's wisdom, lacking the essential tool of revelation or understanding by the Spirit of God" is really God's constant revelation of Himself to those whom He chooses.

It is really sad to see, MF. Even when I was devoutly RLDS, I would never have said (or believed) something so judgmental against anyone.

I will keep you in my prayers.

Your prayers are very much treasured. I know it comes from the heart, how could I ask for better!

Do you believe that the " ...HS guides and directs, and yes, even reveals, to those outside "the faith", ..." even when the results have been divisions, which is contrary to God's Word? Do you believe the HS gives different and conflicting directions and revelations to those outside the faith? If you see this as possible, I sure don't and would appreciate your prayers to help me see what you see.