Prove to me that there was a great apostasy

[A New Dawn]

I am sure I read that Joseph Smith stated the Urim and Thummin was used, I will check into it thanks. Sometimes my mind wonders. thanks again for the check. If anyone would know, you would.

In your checking around, you might run into Section 3 RLDS (Section 10 LDS). However, that section was redacted after the 1835 Book of Commandments was printed. Here is the way it was/is now.

KEY: RED - words added; BLUE - words deleted

[Sec 3:1a] Now, behold, I say unto you, that because you delivered up (so many) those writings which you had power given unto you to translate, by the means of the Urim and Thummim, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them;

[Sec 3:1b] and you also lost your gift at the same time, and your mind became darkened;

[Sec 3:1c] nevertheless, it (has been) is now restored unto you again, therefore see that you are faithful and (go) continue on unto the finishing of the remainder of the work of translation as you have begun.

 

[John16:2]

While history says otherwise. Show me writings from early church Fathers before 570 A.D. (Thats when the apostasy supposedly happened) that support Mormon Doctrine.

If you can show me examples of the early Catholic church writings talkoing about...

1. becoming gods,

2. That Adam was God, and that God was a man on another planet,

3. That there are many gods

4. That God has a body of flesh and bones and that Jehovah, YHWH, and the Holy Ghost are three seperate Gods

5. And more of Mormonism unusual doctrines

Then I will convert to Mormonism.

I'm not Mormon & I can't speak for them. But look up "The History of the Church"-Dorset Books. Eusebius records the first known case of the CHURCH seizing scrolls and putting the owners to death, in 325AD. The Inquisition carried on that policy by exterminating the Cathar & Bogomil Christian religions, and seizing their supposedly heretic books. 900000 Protestant Reformationists were also executed. The Crusades slew all inhabitants of any site claimed. History is full of apostasy, and so is the present. 1 John 2:18-19, John 16:2-3, 2 Timothy 3:12, Matthew 5:11.

www.infowars.com

www.truthquestonline.info

www.vaticanassassins.org

 

[A New Dawn]

I'm not Mormon & I can't speak for them. But look up "The History of the Church"-Dorset Books. Eusebius records the first known case of the CHURCH seizing scrolls and putting the owners to death, in 325AD. The Inquisition carried on that policy by exterminating the Cathar & Bogomil Christian religions, and seizing their supposedly heretic books. 900000 Protestant Reformationists were also executed. The Crusades slew all inhabitants of any site claimed. History is full of apostasy, and so is the present. 1 John 2:18-19, John 16:2-3, 2 Timothy 3:12, Matthew 5:11.

www.infowars.com

www.truthquestonline.info

www.vaticanassassins.org

So, what position are you advocating?

 

[Tawhano]

History is full of apostasy, and so is the present.

The claim isn't that there has been strife in the religious world but that the Church Christ founded was lost. The only evidence of an apostasy is man from the Church and not the Church being lost. Religions that claim their church is the true church don't know the meaning of the true Church. The true Church has stood and will stand until Christ comes for it.

 

[Swart]

I am sure I read that Joseph Smith stated the Urim and Thummin was used, I will check into it thanks. Sometimes my mind wonders. thanks again for the check. If anyone would know, you would.

My understanding is that the lost manuscript pages were translated by the Urim & Thummin, but these were taken back by Moroni along with the plates. When the plates were returned, they were translated via a 'seer stone', which does not match Joseph's description of the U&T given by JS. From my reading of primary sources, it appears that the translation process from the U&T was different from the seer stone - the U&T being a much easier process.

JSH details the U&T as found with the plates, but does not mention the seer stone. AM sources mention the seer stone but ignore the U&T.

 

[A New Dawn]

My understanding is that the lost manuscript pages were translated by the Urim & Thummin, but these were taken back by Moroni along with the plates. When the plates were returned, they were translated via a 'seer stone', which does not match Joseph's description of the U&T given by JS. From my reading of primary sources, it appears that the translation process from the U&T was different from the seer stone - the U&T being a much easier process.

JSH details the U&T as found with the plates, but does not mention the seer stone. AM sources mention the seer stone but ignore the U&T.

Did you see my above post, Swart?

You need to differentiate between the use of the interpreters and the seer stone. The lost 116 pages was done with the aid of the interpreters.

WWPhelps was the first to use the phrase "Urim & Thummim" in January, 1833 in the Evening and Morning Star (sorry, I said Millenial Star earlier). This is the quote.

"the plates were translated by the gift and power of God, by an unlearned man, through the aid of a pair of Interpreters, or spectacles-(known, perhaps in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummim)."
Evening and Morning Star 1st Ed.1:8 (January, 1833) p. 58:b

See also my post concerning the redacting of LDS Section 10 to include the wording "Urim & Thummim" done post 1835 Book of Commandments (which contains the original language of the revelation.)

 

[Swart]

Did you see my above post, Swart?

You need to differentiate between the use of the interpreters and the seer stone. The lost 116 pages was done with the aid of the interpreters.

I did. JS used the terms interchangeably:

“Also, that there were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim—deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted Seers in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book." -JSH

 

[Peterson]

The claim isn't that there has been strife in the religious world but that the Church Christ founded was lost. The only evidence of an apostasy is man from the Church and not the Church being lost. Religions that claim their church is the true church don't know the meaning of the true Church. The true Church has stood and will stand until Christ comes for it.

The apostasy can be nailed down to a specific year. It happened in 325 A.D. when the church became a political arm of the Roman empire. Can you imagine any of the apostles, including Paul, who would have been part of a council to determine church doctrine, with a pagan Roman emperor as the final authority on such matters?

The only time the apostles and Paul had anything to do with Roman authority was at the point of a sword.

 

[A New Dawn]

I did. JS used the terms interchangeably:

“Also, that there were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim—deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted Seers in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book." -JSH

What is the date of that quote?

The "Urim & Thummim" that were said to be deposited with the plates were the stones Moroni included to interpret the sealed portion, not the interpreters that Joseph used for the first 116 pages.

 

[Swart]

What is the date of that quote?

The "Urim & Thummim" that were said to be deposited with the plates were the stones Moroni included to interpret the sealed portion, not the interpreters that Joseph used for the first 116 pages.

From JS-H

2 In this history I shall present the various events in relation to this Church, in truth and righteousness, as they have transpired, or as they at present exist, being now [1838] the eighth year since the organization of the said Church.

62 By this timely aid was I enabled to reach the place of my destination in Pennsylvania; and immediately after my arrival there I commenced copying the characters off the plates. I copied a considerable number of them, and by means of the Urim and Thummim I translated some of them, which I did between the time I arrived at the house of my wife’s father, in the month of December, and the February following.

 

[A New Dawn]

From JS-H

2 In this history I shall present the various events in relation to this Church, in truth and righteousness, as they have transpired, or as they at present exist, being now [1838] the eighth year since the organization of the said Church.

62 By this timely aid was I enabled to reach the place of my destination in Pennsylvania; and immediately after my arrival there I commenced copying the characters off the plates. I copied a considerable number of them, and by means of the Urim and Thummim I translated some of them, which I did between the time I arrived at the house of my wife’s father, in the month of December, and the February following.

The quote made by WWPhelps was in 1833, by 1834 the use of "Urim & Thummim" was fairly common, but still was not used in the original revelation (that became LDS section 10) in the Book of Commandments. The statement you quoted was from 1838, well after the original quote in 1833 by WWPhelps.

 

[MormonFriend]

Nobody converts to Mormonism by having someone prove something to you. The conversion to all things in Christianity entails proving things for yourself.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

The conversion to all things in Christianity is by the power of the Holy Spirit. It is by God changing your heart, your way of thinking, your way of doing things so that you are focused on Him, alone. There is no room for anything else when you are truly converted to Him.

I am right, affirmative and correcto-mundo. When I speak of proving things yourself, it includes finding the right "connection" with the Holy Spirit through the application of faith. By applying true faith, a person is able to prove something to his own knowledge (hence, proving it to yourself), whereas it was only a belief before faith was applied.

"There is no room for anything else when you are truly converted to Him."

I couldn't agree more. I know that when I sin (by your statement, there is no room for sin if you are truly converted), that I am not truly converted. Nevertheless, I am greatful to know where my weakness lies, so that I can focus on coming closer to God by seeking His help in overcoming all things. It is the experience of confronting our weaknesses, and enduring other trials, that God changes our hearts, through humility.

 

[A New Dawn]

I am right, affirmative and correcto-mundo. When I speak of proving things yourself, it includes finding the right "connection" with the Holy Spirit through the application of faith. By applying true faith, a person is able to prove something to his own knowledge (hence, proving it to yourself), whereas it was only a belief before faith was applied.

"There is no room for anything else when you are truly converted to Him."

I couldn't agree more. I know that when I sin (by your statement, there is no room for sin if you are truly converted), that I am not truly converted. Nevertheless, I am greatful to know where my weakness lies, so that I can focus on coming closer to God by seeking His help in overcoming all things. It is the experience of confronting our weaknesses, and enduring other trials, that God changes our hearts, through humility.

The only thing you can do is nothing. You cannot find the right connection. You cannot apply true faith. You cannot prove anything because someone dead in their sins is incapable of making the first move.

God provides the connection. God gives you true faith. God shows the way in all things.

Once God brings you to life, all you can do is drop to your knees and give thanks.

 

[drstevej]

Once God brings you to life, all you can do is drop to your knees and give thanks.

Praise God!

 

[MormonFriend]

The only thing you can do is nothing. You cannot find the right connection. You cannot apply true faith. You cannot prove anything because someone dead in their sins is incapable of making the first move.

Whoever drew the conclusion that a person "dead in their sins" cannot do anything on their part, though limited it may be, to reverse their spiritual status? As I see it, that belief would be the perfect deception tactic. Doesn't Satan know that "...to depart from evil is ..." the equivalent of gaining true " ...understanding?" Doesn't he also know that when we do the Father's will, we will know doctrine? Deception is all about hiding knowledge, and what you are teaching ("The only thing you can do is nothing.") is hiding knowledge.

If what you say was true, then everything that Jesus taught would never be understood by anyone, until God selected and choose that person. Then for what purpose are the scriputres?

 

[A New Dawn]

Whoever drew the conclusion that a person "dead in their sins" cannot do anything on their part, though limited it may be, to reverse their spiritual status? As I see it, that belief would be the perfect deception tactic. Doesn't Satan know that "...to depart from evil is ..." the equivalent of gaining true " ...understanding?" Doesn't he also know that when we do the Father's will, we will know doctrine? Deception is all about hiding knowledge, and what you are teaching ("The only thing you can do is nothing.") is hiding knowledge.

How is what I said hiding knowledge? What I said is what is stated right out in scripture.

Jhn 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

If what you say was true, then everything that Jesus taught would never be understood by anyone, until God selected and choose that person. Then for what purpose are the scriputres?

BINGO!

That is because anything else is tantamount to working towards our salvation.

The purpose of the scriptures?
[BIBLE]2 Timothy 3:16-17[/BIBLE]

 

[drstevej]

Whoever drew the conclusion that a person "dead in their sins" cannot do anything on their part, though limited it may be, to reverse their spiritual status? As I see it, that belief would be the perfect deception tactic.

And the Prophet Joseph Smith's, SBUHN changing the word justified to sanctified in Romans 8:30 and the LDS Church claiming, despite the thousands of manuscripts supporting the reading of the KJV and absolute none supporting the JST, that the changed reading was given by God to restore what was actually meant in the first place.... is NOT deception?

Pehaps we need a Mormon Friendly "Translation"

EPH 2:1
And you hath he partially quickened, who were somewhat dead in trespasses and sins;

JOHN 6:33

Some that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me and keeps his covenants I will in no wise cast out.

JOHN 6:44

Sure man can come to me, with a little help from the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day provided he has done all he can do.

Nope, I think Paul did just fine in making the issues clear....

TITUS 3:5

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

 

[fatboys]

The only thing you can do is nothing. You cannot find the right connection. You cannot apply true faith. You cannot prove anything because someone dead in their sins is incapable of making the first move.

God provides the connection. God gives you true faith. God shows the way in all things.

Once God brings you to life, all you can do is drop to your knees and give thanks.

"For the Light of Christ is given to all men that they may know good from evil" You are right. But God has given us a conscience to know good from evil. This is not faith, but knowledge given as a result of the fall. Through this we can be lead to faith in God.

 

[fatboys]

And the Prophet Joseph Smith's, SBUHN changing the word justified to sanctified in Romans 8:30 and the LDS Church claiming, despite the thousands of manuscripts supporting the reading of the KJV and absolute none supporting the JST, that the changed reading was given by God to restore what was actually meant in the first place.... is NOT deception?

Pehaps we need a Mormon Friendly "Translation"








Nope, I think Paul did just fine in making the issues clear....

Through the Prophet Joseph Smith the Lord was making more clear true intent.

 

[A New Dawn]

"For the Light of Christ is given to all men that they may know good from evil" You are right. But God has given us a conscience to know good from evil. This is not faith, but knowledge given as a result of the fall. Through this we can be lead to faith in God.

Where can you show me a scriptural reference for this, fatboys?