Fit4Christ said:
No, MF just states understanding comes by obedience to God's laws. Understanding = qualify by obedience. Is that better?
As long as you are not thinking that the obedience itself is the single source of gaining understanding. Application of principles has always been known to increase understanding in science
(and I believe that any truth obtained is from the HG). It does so as well in the things of the Spirit, but with limitations.
We well know the phrase "...the truth shall make you free." That has reference to understanding. I have a personal philosophy, open to discussion or criticism, that knowledge is power, and power can help or hurt us, depending on the maturity or nature of the one in posession of knowledge. To be made free has connotation to salvation. Is it possibe that the same truth that saves us, can also condemn us? I think so, and hence, God is very selective about giving us understanding (ie:truth/knowledge) before we will act on it with maturity. Our success in being obedient is the markings of maturity. Hence, obedience yields understanding.
Fit4Christ said:
MF said:
And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding. (Job28:28)
Fit4Christ said:
Departing from evil means turning toward God. When we seek God, make Him the Lord of our lives, turn away from sin and repent of our sins, He may choose to give us understanding. IMO, this actually supports my position that God gives us our understanding according to His will and purpose for us when we seek Him, not when we are completely obedient to all 600+ of His OT laws.
I am mostly in accord with you. Surely you believe that there is order and intelligence (far beyond ours) that governs God's will and purpose. Surely there is a criteria whereby God knows when we truly seek Him, and that man himself easily fools himself by believing he is seeking God, yet has much to learn. Is there any chance that this criteria may be imbedded in our resolve to do His will in all 600+ of His OT and NT and present laws? Isn't the true seeker of weight loss the one who deny's himself the desires of sweets, and fights the flesh in being a couch potatoe by going out for a bike ride or a good hike?
In reference to your statement above, does repenting from sin have any validity from never repeating that sin?
Fit4Christ said:
Fit4Christ said:
MF said:
more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts. (Psalms119:100)
Fit4Christ said:
David wrote this. Was he 100% completely obediant to God all the time? Um, no. But, when he did fall away, he always turned back. He always professed his love for God and His laws (Psalms 119:97). David was dedicated to loving God and seeking His wisdom, that He (God) provides. Remember, God chose David to be King. Of course God is going to equip David with more knowledge and understanding than his teachers, elders, past prophets, etc. (i.e. "ancients").
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I don't see anything in what you wrote that negates David's observation that obedience was the source of what God "equipped" to him. This is a first person account of David's experience in how he obtained his understanding. What better account can you ask for, to see the relationship to obedience and understanding?
Was David obedient? Well, you can't be disobedient to a truth that has not been given to you. And so it is with all of us. I think it is logical and spiritually acceptable that the obedience David was talking about is prior truth or understanding He had received. And most likely, he wasn't always true to that prior truth
at first. I think what David is saying is that not until he was true to keeping the precepts already given, that greater understandings were imparted to him. And of course, when given, he had to make choices, learn to challenge and bridle himself so that he could harmonize with the truth given, and certainly before he would expect to gain anymore understanding.
This pattern of obtaining truth is fitting with another point you alluded to. You asked ....
"Is this true for you: Obedience = line upon line, precept upon precept, obeying God's laws? ..." It is a given that God gives understanding line upon line, and precept upon precept. Have you considered that these precepts are like building blocks? You start with the larger and easier blocks to make a foundation. When you have them in place (by obedience to the precepts of which the blocks represent), then God gives you more to build with. Will God give you more if the foundation of the prior blocks are not properly set?
We are on an important tangent to the topic of apostasy. Apostasy is a direct result of misunderstanding. Obviously, that would be Satan's key scheme to spiritual slavery, in opposition to freedom through truth. The fact that there is little to no association between 'obedience and understanding' in post apostasy Christianity, is evidence that there was indeed an apostasy. Without this sure source of understanding
(that is, knowing our understanding is surely from God, as He reveals only to the proven mature) the church began dividing because of the multiple understandings generated by sources outside of the criteria God has established.
Fit4Christ said:
Ok, I think I've understood what you are trying to equate. I'm just saying it's not true. In fact, I could argue that disobedience results in greater understanding, but I won't right now.
No arguement, as I agree. Disobedience yields understanding that "wickedness never was happiness." We could all save ourselves alot of misery by simply obeying. But then again, our pride has to surface somewhere for us to see it, so we can make the choice of accepting refinement, and the suffering associated with it. That has always been the plan of extracting the dross from each of us, if we will permit it.
Disobedience, however, will never yield the first hand understanding by experience of the joy, Peace, and the confidence that can grow within us, from uniting with spiritual principles, instead of fighting them.
Fit4Christ said:
Can an generally obediant person have the presence of the Holy Spirit while being disobedient? (I think you'll have to admit that no person in the history of the earth as we know it was perfectly obedient, except for Jesus, of course, right?)
Every person has disobeyed, so you are correct that no one has been perfectly obedient. Can a person grow to perfect obedience to the things that God has revealed? Since I am not there, I cannot fully understand what this means. I feel safe in assuming the same for you. I do know that God has commanded this of us, and I know that with faith (belief) all things are possible. So my imperfect, but faithful attitude tells me to believe it can be so. And somewhere along my path, where this line, or this precept is given to me, I might understand in perfectness what I presently accept through faith.
Fit4Christ said:
I think one of the areas you and I differ is that I believe the Holy Spirit is a constant companion, whereas, the lds believe He comes and goes?
LDS believe that the Holy Spirit is given to us as a constant companion, and we are to " ...receive the Holy Ghost." A gift is not given until it is received. It may be offered, or authorized, but until it is received, the exchange is incomplete. We receive the Holy Spirit by making room in our hearts to receive Him. Just as dew from the heavens distill upon the leaves, the Holy Spirit, when the conditions are right, will distill upon us. From my profession, I have a better than average knowledge of what conditions must be present for dew drops to form. I understand the "latent" properties involved, as opposed to the "sensible" properties.
Obedience to God's truth creates the proper "latent" conditions that are necessary for the Holy Spirit to distill upon us. His Spirit will not dwell in defiled tabernacles, so disobedience will grieve the Spirit, and we can cause the Spirit to
allegorically evaporate. Nevertheless, through repentance, made possible only by and through Jesus Christ, the conditions within us can be restored to receive the Holy Ghost.
So, yes, the Spirit comes and goes, but it must be understood that it is the result of our own choices, and that we have the capacity to make Him our constant companion. It boils down to, and reveals what it is that we really love.
question by MF said:
Do you think this post places too much emphasis on what we do, and ignores what God has done?
I have heard this so often, that I want to be clear on any doubts. What has God done? The first and foremost answer will always be the gift of His Son, Jesus Christ. That includes the suffering He endured for us, that paid a price of which we shall never have means to repay, and gratefully, His graciousness forgives that debt.
But aren't we ignoring somthing else God has given us? He gave us life, with all the conditions, trials, and experiences that appertain to life. He gave us the instruction book,
interactive with prayer. When we do something, what are we doing it with? The only answer is, we do it with what God has given to us. Could we do it without the tools?
Absolutely not!! So where does the question come from that suggests we do it on our own? The only thing left, and the only thing we have to offer on the alter of sacrifice, is our own will.
(concept inspired by Neal Maxwell) The only motivation, and the only power strong enough to cause us to sacrifice our will, is the love of God, so even at the alter we could not have made this sacrifice if not for Him. Why do we love God? (See 1 John 4:19)
