Prove to me that there was a great apostasy

[gort]

ummmm........(does that mean you agree with my statement or not?)

ja​

 

[A New Dawn]

ja​

Oh, OK. Thanks.

 

[MormonFriend]

I don't believe that all of mainstream Christianity believes that all off-shoots receive their inspiration from God. What mainstream Christianity does understand, however, is that scripture is open to various interpretations inside what is considered orthodoxy.

Since apostolic revelation ceased, what other choice did they have? There was no one to represent God, and to teach what the correct interpretations were/are. And even when the correct interpretations are explained by an authentic voice of God, the reception of pure understanding is not in how well it is explained and presented. Even Jesus Himself could not communicate truth in its purity, with words spoken or written, to those whose hearts were not prepared to hear it.

Regarding those who attempted to define "orthodox" teachings, as much as most of them had good intentions, the result are still the same without personal revelation to the teachers and the receivers of truth. Those results are divisions and multiple denominations.

But the foundational beliefs of Christianity (as outlined in creeds like the Nicean Creed)(those things that are considered salvific in nature) are found as a basic part of the structure of each denomination.

Unfortunately, those things considered "salvific in nature" were decided after the cessation of revelation to the Church. They cannot be relied upon, and the final draft of such creeds were the cause and souce of great contentions, where many who perhaps truly knew the truth were contained and silenced.

 

[gort]

MF,

Where's the proof in what you say?

The writings of the ECF match was the 4 gospels have to say.

The Nicene creed matches what the Bible has to say.

Where's the smoking gun?

<><

 

[A New Dawn]

Unfortunately, those things considered "salvific in nature" were decided after the cessation of revelation to the Church. They cannot be relied upon, and the final draft of such creeds were the cause and souce of great contentions, where many who perhaps truly knew the truth were contained and silenced.

I would think that those things that would be considered salvific in nature would have been revealed by Christ (as the other things considered salvific in nature were), especially those things that are considered way out, like polygamy/celestial marriage. It stands to reason that God would reveal, as Himself, those things that He determines we should do to get back to him, and not leave it up to somebody 2000 years later who will only make an exclusive kind of club out of it.

 

[MormonFriend]

MF,

Where's the proof in what you say?

The writings of the ECF match was the 4 gospels have to say.

The Nicene creed matches what the Bible has to say.

Where's the smoking gun?

<><

1.) The proof is explained in post #115 http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=18395049#post18395049

2.) What is ECF?

3.) With the imperfection of language, the Bible can be matched to what anybody wants to believe, which is why there are so many denominations. The Bible cannot be perfect because it is written in an imperfect language.

4.) The multiple denominations are the smoking gun.


Also, I don't buy this common denominator of beliefs in what is called "the essentials," or truths that are somehow classified as more important than others because they pertain to salvation. The true common denominator that binds Christians as one body is understanding by the Spirit of God. If you (plural) say that you have the Spirit when understanding the so called "essentials" (ie; the Nicean Creed), then why don't you have the Spirit when understanding the other things of God, those things of disagreement that caused divisions?

I hope you see my reasoning here. It is genuine and valid.

 

[gort]

2. early church fathers

3.) With the imperfection of language, the Bible can be matched to what anybody wants to believe, which is why there are so many denominations. The Bible cannot be perfect because it is written in an imperfect language.

I disagree greatly. It takes much cognitive dissonance to ignore Scripture for what it plainly has to say. Plain is plain.

It is people that take a subjective stance on what is objective. For instance, the Bible to me is entirely objective. Yet to you it is apparantly subjective.

4.) The multiple denominations are the smoking gun.

The commonality between the Catholics, protestants, reformers, etc., is that Christ Jesus atoned for the sins of man, for those that would believe and have faith. Are we all united in lockstep formation? No.

Also, I don't buy this common denominator of beliefs in what is called "the essentials," or truths that are somehow classified as more important than others because they pertain to salvation. The true common denominator that binds Christians as one body is understanding by the Spirit of God. If you (plural) say that you have the Spirit when understanding the so called "essentials" (ie; the Nicean Creed), then why don't you have the Spirit when understanding the other things of God, those things of disagreement that caused divisions?

These 'essentials' cover 95% of the bible. God's salvation for man through His Son.

You'll find that it is the subjective interpretation of the objective word of God that is the culprit, along with another, that causes schisms in mainstream christianity.

It's about perception, and whose perception on accepts. Their own, or Gods.

<><

 

[MormonFriend]

With the imperfection of language, the Bible can be matched to what anybody wants to believe, which is why there are so many denominations. The Bible cannot be perfect because it is written in an imperfect language.

I disagree greatly. It takes much cognitive dissonance to ignore Scripture for what it plainly has to say. Plain is plain.

Another way of saying this is that our sins interfere with the plainness of the message in scripture. There is the conflict of interest and attitude. The selfishness of man must progresively be overcome before scripture will be progresively opened up to him, because there is an incongruous nature between sin and things that are spiritual. This is the problem the early, already converted Saints had in Hebrews 5, when they were essentially told to go back to the basics if they wanted to understand the message about Christ. This is why the Lord told us through Job that to depart from evil is understanding.

Talk about cognitive dissonance, it is the mutual agreement I have seen in OC that we cannot keep God's Word, or keep all of His commandments as He has told us, that is in direct simultaneous conflict with understanding His Word.

"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, ...." (John7:17) ... and that is the secret of understanding the perfect message, written in an imperfect language. It has nothing to do with perspectives or being objective, because perspectives and objectiveness change as we have a change of heart through applying the true principles of repentance. The dark obscure glass becomes clear.

 

[buddy mack]

Another way of saying this is that our sins interfere with the plainness of the message in scripture. There is the conflict of interest and attitude. The selfishness of man must progresively be overcome before scripture will be progresively opened up to him, because there is an incongruous nature between sin and things that are spiritual. This is the problem the early, already converted Saints had in Hebrews 5, when they were essentially told to go back to the basics if they wanted to understand the message about Christ. This is why the Lord told us through Job that to depart from evil is understanding.

Talk about cognitive dissonance, it is the mutual agreement I have seen in OC that we cannot keep God's Word, or keep all of His commandments as He has told us, that is in direct simultaneous conflict with understanding His Word.

"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, ...." (John7:17) ... and that is the secret of understanding the perfect message, written in an imperfect language. It has nothing to do with perspectives or being objective, because perspectives and objectiveness change as we have a change of heart through applying the true principles of repentance. The dark obscure glass becomes clear.

Let me try and pick my nose, i mean this apart. lets take hebrews 5, milk vs meat, I guess GBH, when he was on the Larry King show didn't wont to give us dumbies meat when he was asked about, (AS MAN IS GOD ONCE WAS, AND AS GOD IS MAN MAY BECOME). his response was akind to, lying for the lord. second. if man could follow the law, that is being without sin, then there would have been no need for Christ atonement. we all sin and will continue to sin until Christ come or we die before his returning. it is just a fact jack. I have never met a Bishop, or LDS priestholder who could tell me he was worthy of Exaltation. (third, if mormonlandism had the perfect message, there would be no need of doctrinal changes over the past 150 years. ie, polgamy, blacks in the priesthood, temple ceremony. and the teachings on, Heavenly Father doing his daughter Mary as to quote Brigham Young, (the birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children: it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood-- was begotten of his Father as we were of our fathers). now maybe mormons dont get much sex edumacation in schools and home, but let me tell you what, NATURAL ACTION means. and PARTOOK OF FLESH AND BLOOD, and BEGOTTEN OF HIS FATHER, AS WE WERE OF OUR FATHER, means. and i hope you are over 18 years of age. first, natural action means, when boy meets girl and both take a liking to each other. they usaually find some private place and one thing leads to another, and NATURAL ACTION takes place. in other words, SEX, yes i said it SEX. i came about the old fastion way, my mom and dad partook of NATURAL ACTION. now today mormons are embarrassed with what Brigham Yound said back in 1860. today they say it was by somekind of spiritual test tub action...........BUT, THAT IS SUCH, BS, spiritual test tub jesus, aint NATURAL ACTION. why didnt Brigham just say, as the bible tells us as Luke did in chapter one verse 35; (the Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the Power of the Highest shall overshadow thee but no, Brigham couldn't leave well enough along. just like his Adam God doctrine, mormons of today run away from. yes, mormonlandism, is a perfect gospel alright...........last, (if any man do his will) St John 7:17, lets quote it, (if any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.) hey lets not stop here, lets go on to vs 18, (he that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory:but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.). now lets go to what Joseph Smith said of HIMSELF, quoting him, ( I HAVE MORE TO BOAST OF THEN EVER ANY MAN HAD. I AM THE ONLY MAN THAT HAS EVER BEEN ABLE TO KEEP A WHOLE CHURCH TOGETHER SINCE THE DAYS OF ADAM. A LARGE MAJORITY OF THE WHOLE HAVE STOOD BY ME. NEITHER PAUL, JOHN, PETER, NOR JESUS EVER DID IT, I BOAST THAT NO MAN EVER DID SUCK A WORK AS I.) yes my friends, these are the words of that great humble man name, Joseph Smith.
oh well, let hav some good ol fastion cognitive dissonance on this one......

 

[MormonFriend]

Let me try and ....

This had nothing to do with my post, or the topic.

As for cognitive dissonance, and how it applys.

Main Entry: cognitive dissonance
Function: noun
: psychological conflict resulting from incongruous beliefs and attitudes held simultaneously

I am pointing out that there is a conflict within each person who trys to read and understand scripture, and does not pursue overcoming sin. And especially if he believes that we cannot overcome sin. (1 John 5:5)

You stated: "if man could follow the law, that is being without sin, then there would have been no need for Christ atonement."

This is so simple, a child could understand it. We can follow the law, but we will stumble in the attempt. We break the law in our efforts to keep it. Christ's atonement satisfies the demands of justice, and pays the penalty for the laws we break, but only on conditions of repentance. Repentance is not a payment on our part to any degree for the demands of justice. Repentance is an attitude of humility, sorrow for our sins, even to the extent of a broken and contrite heart. It is also a promise to never repeat the sin.

No man is without sin, nevertheless, that does not keep him from progressively doing better every day. And if perchance he overcomes all sin (1 John 5:5), that does not erase or negate the sins he committed. The stains remain, and must be cleansed by the atonement of Jesus Christ. And the stipulation is confirmed as to who will be cleansed.
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9)


You also stated: " ....we all sin and will continue to sin until Christ come or we die before his returning."

Where do you come up with such a conclusion? Scripture states we have all sinned, but that is in reference to past. Scripture teaches us that we can escape temptation, and that God has prepared a way for us to do so. (1 Cor. 10:13) It may have something to do with obeying Him. We can do that, because we have been equipped with free will. It is as simple as making the choice to do so. And what we choose is a manifestation of what or who we really love.

Is this making sense yet? Let me try this approach.
What is heaven? (A place of love.)
Who goes there? (Those who demonstrate that they love God more than self.)
How do we know that we love Jesus? (By the standard which He gave. "If ye love me, keep my commandments.")
If people who have not learned to love go to heaven, will it still be heaven? (NO! Because love will not dominate.)
So what must be done? (The wheat must be divided from the tares.)
How is that accomplished?
(By giving man commandments, free will, time to learn to use free will correctly, and providing a Savior for when he misuses it.)

No, I don't know any Bishops or other LDS who are worthy of exaltation either, but I know plenty who are doing a little better each day, and never giving up denotes enduring to the end, which is a written condition of salvation.

 

[buddy mack]

[ I am pointing out that there is a conflict within each person who trys to read and understand scripture, and does not pursue overcoming sin. And especially if he believes that we cannot overcome sin. (1 John 5:5)

You stated: "if man could follow the law, that is being without sin, then there would have been no need for Christ atonement."

This is so simple, a child could understand it. We can follow the law, but we will stumble in the attempt. We break the law in our efforts to keep it. Christ's atonement satisfies the demands of justice, and pays the penalty for the laws we break, but only on conditions of repentance. Repentance is not a payment on our part to any degree for the demands of justice. Repentance is an attitude of humility, sorrow for our sins, even to the extent of a broken and contrite heart. It is also a promise to never repeat the sin.
No man is without sin, nevertheless, that does not keep him from progressively doing better every day. And if perchance he overcomes all sin (1 John 5:5), that does not erase or negate the sins he committed. The stains remain, and must be cleansed by the atonement of Jesus Christ. And the stipulation is confirmed as to who will be cleansed.
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews5:9)
You also stated: " ....we all sin and will continue to sin until Christ come or we die before his returning."
Where do you come up with such a conclusion? Scripture states we have all sinned, but that is in reference to past. Scripture teaches us that we can escape temptation, and that God has prepared a way for us to do so. (1 Cor. 10:13) It may have something to do with obeying Him. We can do that, because we have been equipped with free will. It is as simple as making the choice to do so. And what we choose is a manifestation of what or who we really love.

Is this making sense yet? Let me try this approach.
What is heaven? (A place of love.)
Who goes there? (Those who demonstrate that they love God more than self.)
How do we know that we love Jesus? (By the standard which He gave. "If ye love me, keep my commandments.")
If people who have not learned to love go to heaven, will it still be heaven? (NO! Because love will not dominate.)
So what must be done? (The wheat must be divided from the tares.)
How is that accomplished?
(By giving man commandments, free will, time to learn to use free will correctly, and providing a Savior for when he misuses it.)

No, I don't know any Bishops or other LDS who are worthy of exaltation either, but I know plenty who are doing a little better each day, and never giving up denotes enduring to the end, which is a written condition of salvation.
[/QUOTE]

It's not often a christian can debate with a mormon and have the TBM keep to the Bible with their comments, and again i think you.
Now what does one need to do to be born again, saved, redemed, regenerated, exaltated, sanctified, and full of the holy Ghost.
Nicodenus, asked Jesus, "what must i do to be saved?" Jesus answered, "born of the spirit.", ie regeneration, the new birth.
The rich ruler asked." and Jesus asked him a question. The rich ruler answered, he kept the commandments, but Jesus answered back and said, "yet you lackest one thing, sell all that you have and follow me."
NOW I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU, BUT I HAVEN'T SOLD ALL THAT I HAVE, SO I GUESS I AM HELL BOUND, ARE YOU TOO?
The simple answer to the question of "WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?" is found in ACTs 16:30.
finally, there is a little section in Hebrews in which few people ever quote because it is so difficult to swallow. read Hebrews, 6:4-6. repentance until salvation is a one time event, not to be repeated by the sinner. Christ was crucified only once.
Putting it all together in one neat package is quite simple really. believe, repent and follow Christ on a life time journey. knowing we are none good as long as we live in the flesh. the battle between our flesh and spirit will continue until his return or our death. it is this fact which put Christ on the cross in the first place. I could have chosen to have my sins covered by the law, ie old testament, or covered by the blood of Jesus. i choose, Jesus. there isnt the law/blood coverage, if it were Jesus would not have said, " IT IS FINNISHED." Jesus paid the price in full for my sins. may we all continue to grow in his GRACE. amen.