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Protestant errors and inventions (3)

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Albion

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hmmmm so yes .. the church Jesus speaks of cannot fail .. so what did fail .. is not his church then?

profound question .. i'll live in that one .

I'm not sure whom I agree with on this one. ;)

The people can err, and they are the Church. But mistakes do not constitute the Church failing. Despite many errors, it prevails and continues to grow--just as that Scripture indicates.

OTOH, I can't agree that the institutional church, compared by Mark to the Sanhedrin, is what that verse in the Bible is referring to.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I'm not sure whom I agree with on this one. ;)

The people can err, and they are the Church. But mistakes do not constitute the Church failing. Despite many errors, it prevails and continues to grow--just as that Scripture indicates.

OTOH, I can't agree that the institutional church, compared by Mark to the Sanhedrin, is what that verse in the Bible is referring to.

hahah we'll just say God is right and call it a day ;)

Well i just mean the bible says .. this is what the church does . so if it stops doing that . then is it no longer the church, though it calls itself as such? i recall the church of Ephesus was faced with the crisis of having their candlestick snuffed out .
 
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Albion

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hahah we'll just say God is right and call it a day ;)

Well i just mean the bible says .. this is what the church does . so if it stops doing that . then is it no longer the church, though it calls itself as such? i recall the church of Ephesus was faced with the crisis of having their candlestick snuffed out .

I agree except that it's obvious (I'd think) that when the New Testament is referring to the Church, it means the whole body, not the part of the Church that is at Ephesus or anywhere else. So that means we are back to the main point--the Church cannot fail, although it can err and individuals within it can fail.
 
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shturt678

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hmmmm so yes .. the church Jesus speaks of cannot fail .. so what did fail .. is not his church then?

profound question .. i'll live in that one .. and let God judge the answer .

The Church that cannot fail are all those that were, are, and will be "inwardly" in the Una-Sancta, ie, the Kingdom of God, upon one's passing. Now the 'conundrum of what did fail,' ie, something to do with those that are in "outwardly"?

Just ol' old outward Jack
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I'm not sure whom I agree with on this one. ;)

The people can err, and they are the Church. But mistakes do not constitute the Church failing. Despite many errors, it prevails and continues to grow--just as that Scripture indicates.

OTOH, I can't agree that the institutional church, compared by Mark to the Sanhedrin, is what that verse in the Bible is referring to.

Albion, I worded that somewhat poorly; visible, institutional church, not necessarily "The Church"; the Sanhedrin being an institution of the visible church, not always operating in the interest of "The Church";).
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I agree except that it's obvious (I'd think) that when the New Testament is referring to the Church, it means the whole body, not the part of the Church that is at Ephesus or anywhere else. So that means we are back to the main point--the Church cannot fail, although it can err and individuals within it can fail.

The Church that cannot fail are all those that were, are, and will be "inwardly" in the Una-Sancta, ie, the Kingdom of God, upon one's passing. Now the 'conundrum of what did fail,' ie, something to do with those that are in "outwardly"?

Just ol' old outward Jack

i agree that this church

1577 ekklhsia ekklesia ek-klay-see’-ah

from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; TDNT-3:501,394; n f

AV-church 115, assembly 3; 118

1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
1a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
1b) the assembly of the Israelites
1c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
1d) in a Christian sense
1d1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
1d2) a company of Christians, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order’s sake
1d3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
1d4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
1d5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven

usages of strongs word 1577

Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church <1577>; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mt 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church <1577>: but if he neglect to hear the church <1577>, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church <1577> daily such as should be saved.
Ac 5:11 And great fear came upon all the church <1577>, and upon as many as heard these things.
Ac 7:38 This is he, that was in the church <1577> in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Ac 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church <1577> which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
Ac 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church <1577>, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
Ac 9:31 Then had the churches <1577> rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.
Ac 11:22 Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church <1577> which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.
Ac 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church <1577>, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Ac 12:1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church <1577>.
Ac 12:5 Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church <1577> unto God for him.
Ac 13:1 Now there were in the church <1577> that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
Ac 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church <1577>, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
Ac 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church <1577> together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.
Ac 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church <1577>, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
Ac 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church <1577>, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
Ac 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church <1577>, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
Ac 15:41 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches <1577>.
Ac 16:5 And so were the churches <1577> established in the faith, and increased in number daily.
Ac 18:22 And when he had landed at Caesarea, and gone up, and saluted the church <1577>, he went down to Antioch.
Ac 19:32 Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly <1577> was confused; and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.
Ac 19:39 But if ye enquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly <1577>.
Ac 19:41 And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the assembly <1577>.
Ac 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church <1577>.
Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church <1577> of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Ro 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church <1577> which is at Cenchrea:
Ro 16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches <1577> of the Gentiles.
Ro 16:5 Likewise greet the church <1577> that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
Ro 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches <1577> of Christ salute you.
Ro 16:23 Gaius mine host, and of the whole church <1577>, saluteth you. Erastus the chamberlain of the city saluteth you, and Quartus a brother.
Ro 16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. Written to the Romans from Corinthus, and sent by Phebe servant of the church <1577> at Cenchrea.
1Co 1:2 Unto the church <1577> of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1Co 4:17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church <1577>.
1Co 6:4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church <1577>.
1Co 7:17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches <1577>.
1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church <1577> of God:
1Co 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches <1577> of God.
1Co 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church <1577>, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
1Co 11:22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church <1577> of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church <1577>, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church <1577>.
1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church <1577> may receive edifying.
1Co 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church <1577>.
1Co 14:19 Yet in the church <1577> I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
1Co 14:23 If therefore the whole church <1577> be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church <1577>; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches <1577> of the saints.
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches <1577>: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church <1577>.
1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church <1577> of God.
1Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches <1577> of Galatia, even so do ye.
1Co 16:19 The churches <1577> of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church <1577> that is in their house.
2Co 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church <1577> of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
2Co 8:1 Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches <1577> of Macedonia;
2Co 8:18 And we have sent with him the brother, whose praise is in the gospel throughout all the churches <1577>;
2Co 8:19 And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches <1577> to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:
2Co 8:23 Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches <1577>, and the glory of Christ.
2Co 8:24 Wherefore shew ye to them, and before the churches <1577>, the proof of your love, and of our boasting on your behalf.
2Co 11:8 I robbed other churches <1577>, taking wages of them, to do you service.
2Co 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches <1577>.
2Co 12:13 For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches <1577>, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.
Ga 1:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches <1577> of Galatia:
Ga 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church <1577> of God, and wasted it:
Ga 1:22 And was unknown by face unto the churches <1577> of Judaea which were in Christ:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church <1577>,
Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church <1577> the manifold wisdom of God,
Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church <1577> by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church <1577>: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church <1577> is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church <1577>, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church <1577>, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church <1577>:
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church <1577>.
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church <1577>; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 4:15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church <1577> communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church <1577>: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church <1577>:
Col 4:15 Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church <1577> which is in his house.
Col 4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church <1577> of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.
1Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church <1577> of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches <1577> of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
2Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church <1577> of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches <1577> of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church <1577> of God?)
1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church <1577> of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
1Ti 5:16 If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church <1577> be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.
2Ti 4:22 The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen. The second epistle unto Timotheus, ordained the first bishop of the church <1577> of the Ephesians, was written from Rome, when Paul was brought before Nero the second time.
Tit 3:15 All that are with me salute thee. Greet them that love us in the faith. Grace be with you all. Amen. It was written to Titus, ordained the first bishop of the church <1577> of the Cretians, from Nicopolis of Macedonia.
Phm 1:2 And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church <1577> in thy house:
Heb 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church <1577> will I sing praise unto thee.
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church <1577> of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church <1577>; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
3Jo 1:6 Which have borne witness of thy charity before the church <1577>: whom if thou bring forward on their journey after a godly sort, thou shalt do well:
3Jo 1:9 I wrote unto the church <1577>: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
3Jo 1:10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church <1577>.
Re 1:4 John to the seven churches <1577> which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
Re 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches <1577> which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches <1577>: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches <1577>.
Re 2:1 Unto the angel of the church <1577> of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches <1577>; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Re 2:8 And unto the angel of the church <1577> in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches <1577>; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Re 2:12 And to the angel of the church <1577> in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
Re 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches <1577>; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Re 2:18 And unto the angel of the church <1577> in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
Re 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches <1577> shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Re 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches <1577>.
Re 3:1 And unto the angel of the church <1577> in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Re 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches <1577>.
Re 3:7 And to the angel of the church <1577> in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Re 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches <1577>.
Re 3:14 And unto the angel of the church <1577> of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Re 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches <1577>.
Re 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches <1577>. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Perhaps the term is misappropriated to said administrative structures . but yeah Love never fails, Jesus never fails, the church he builds tears down the gates of hell and death and it never fails .
 
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shturt678

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i agree that this church

1577 ekklhsia ekklesia ek-klay-see’-ah

from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; TDNT-3:501,394; n f

AV-church 115, assembly 3; 118

1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
1a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
1b) the assembly of the Israelites
1c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
1d) in a Christian sense
1d1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
1d2) a company of Christians, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order’s sake
1d3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
1d4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
1d5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven

usages of strongs word 1577

Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church <1577>; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mt 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church <1577>: but if he neglect to hear the church <1577>, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church <1577> daily such as should be saved.
Ac 5:11 And great fear came upon all the church <1577>, and upon as many as heard these things.
Ac 7:38 This is he, that was in the church <1577> in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Ac 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church <1577> which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
Ac 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church <1577>, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
Ac 9:31 Then had the churches <1577> rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.
Ac 11:22 Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church <1577> which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.
Ac 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church <1577>, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Ac 12:1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church <1577>.
Ac 12:5 Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church <1577> unto God for him.
Ac 13:1 Now there were in the church <1577> that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
Ac 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church <1577>, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
Ac 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church <1577> together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.
Ac 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church <1577>, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
Ac 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church <1577>, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
Ac 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church <1577>, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
Ac 15:41 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches <1577>.
Ac 16:5 And so were the churches <1577> established in the faith, and increased in number daily.
Ac 18:22 And when he had landed at Caesarea, and gone up, and saluted the church <1577>, he went down to Antioch.
Ac 19:32 Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly <1577> was confused; and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.
Ac 19:39 But if ye enquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly <1577>.
Ac 19:41 And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the assembly <1577>.
Ac 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church <1577>.
Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church <1577> of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Ro 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church <1577> which is at Cenchrea:
Ro 16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches <1577> of the Gentiles.
Ro 16:5 Likewise greet the church <1577> that is in their house. Salute my wellbel .

Had to shorten in order to ship my view out per the coconut wireless

I think the "Church," after the 1st century, has more to do with Matt.20:1-16 & 22:1-14, ie, the Una-Sancta which surprising enough is even composed of make-believers, deceived-believers, sometime-believers, and etc., ie, I'm more of the some-timers part (maybe allstimers?)

Just ol' old Jack trying to get my name on the 'list.'
 
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Root of Jesse

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Oh my goodness... No! Luther began life was a Roman Catholic and was excommunicated for beginning the Protestant Reformation! His whole career was dedicated to restoring the pure preaching of the gospel!
Luther was excommunicated for being disobedient to the authority he vowed obedience to. He regretted what happened as a result of his actions. He meant to reform the Catholic Church, but tried to do it in his own way, rather than in God's way. Now look at the splintering-35,000 different denominations.
 
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Root of Jesse

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And I can do w/o the love that uses the term "protestant". Perhaps we can come to some kind of settlement on each of those terms.

Romanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Romanist)

Romanism was a word used as a derogatory term for Roman Catholicism in the past when anti-Catholicism was more common in the United States and the United Kingdom. The term was frequently used in late-nineteenth and early-twentieth century Republican invectives against the Democrats, as part of the slogan "Rum, rebellion, and Romanism" (referencing the Democratic party's constituency of Southerners and anti-Temperance, frequently Catholic, working-class immigrants).

The term and slogan gained particular prominence in the 1928 presidential campaign, in which the Democratic candidate was the outspokenly anti-Prohibition Catholic Governor of New York Al Smith. The term is still used, though rarely, by anti-Catholics..........


.
So, what term can we use to speak of the Christian Church who aren't Catholic?
 
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Root of Jesse

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I learn through guidance of the HS from the holy scriptures which were themselves inspired by the HS.

Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mt 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Joh 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 ¶ I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Joh 14:25 ¶ These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Ga 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

1Jo 3:1 ¶ Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jo 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

And this speaks against the Catholic Church...how?
 
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Root of Jesse

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He said Catholicism has everything written down and easy to understand, and i responded by saying the scriptures are already written down, and that i can read and study with other believers and learn by Gods spirit, and so i don't need the guidance of the RC Church for that.
Where does Scripture say that it is the only word of God? For that matter, when did "The Word" come to mean "Only the Written Word"? Jesus became incarnate, then spoke, then died and rose, all before a Christian word was ever written.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Well, let's be honest; after all, it's not as if RC has anyone else agreeing with it on its interpretations either.

OTOH, if the salvation message is simple---believe on the Lord Jesus---then the voice is clear and loud and united. It's all those other Tradtions that confuse.
Name a denomination other than your own that agrees with all your interpretations of Scripture, and enumerate, please.

If the salvation message is simple, why are their so many interpretations of that message?
 
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Root of Jesse

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I didn't make a mistake there. That's the way you see Christianity, Christ's Gospel, and salvation. I obviously see those matters differently. In the light of the Bible's teachings, you might say.


Then you are not one of those who delights in saying that it's somehow ignorant or foolish to refer to the Scriptures as the "Word of God?" That would be good, then. :thumbsup:


I know that that's one of the RC talking points, but in fact it's no more accurate than saying that your Traditions that take the place of Scripture are also received by you through a private judgment. All that really matters is what it is that we are interpreting...and whether it is God's truth or something else.

Obviously, I'd say, the Word of God can't be inferior to anything else, even though there are millions of people who prefer Tradition or direct revelations (they claim) from the Holy Spirit or assemble their own versions of sacred writings (as we can read advocated over on the Unorthodox Theology forum).


It is somewhat ironic that you'd put it that way. "Evangelical" means Gospel-centered, and I'm the one advocating for the authority of the Gospel here! :doh:
So, I guess you and tadoflamb are very close, for you to know what he thinks...

If you're going to know the 'talking points', know the 'talking points'. The 'talking points' you refer to are the official teaching of the Church. I cannot try to speak for other Catholics, but only for what the Church teaches. Same for tadoflamb. The Church does not put anything above Scripture. Period.
 
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Stryder06

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Where does Scripture say that it is the only word of God? For that matter, when did "The Word" come to mean "Only the Written Word"? Jesus became incarnate, then spoke, then died and rose, all before a Christian word was ever written.

Christian's are those who follow after Christ. That would rightfully make the prophets Christians. :cool:
 
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Root of Jesse

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Because in the last days men will not endure sound doctrine...
Which means that, in the 'first' days, the message was sound. That's the way the Catholic Church sees it, too.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Christian's are those who follow after Christ. That would rightfully make the prophets Christians. :cool:
Even if they came before?:confused: I think we're speaking of NT doctrine, at any rate. There was no "Word of Christ" written until it had been spoken.
 
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Stryder06

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Thank you for the clarification

Which means that, in the 'first' days, the message was sound. That's the way the Catholic Church sees it, too.

That sound was writien down though. It wasn't just taught orally (although I do believe that is how things used to be pre-flood)

Even if they came before?:confused: I think we're speaking of NT doctrine, at any rate. There was no "Word of Christ" written until it had been spoken.

I was going with what a Christian truly is. One who follows Christ before His advent is no different than one who follows post advent. That's imo though. And the message being writen after it was spoken is neither here nor there. I believe the reason why we are to trust the writen word, is because it helps to keep us from deception.
 
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