Protestant errors and inventions (3)

[Gregory Thompson]

Here are statistics published by CARA which is part of Georgetown University.

Catholic Data, Catholic Statistics, Catholic Research

A particular statistic that I found interesting is the tremendous increase in permanent deacons in both the US and the rest of the world while the total number of priest in the US dropped dramatically and remained relatively flat for the rest of the world.

that is very interesting .

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee

I reckon that Catholic priests are in short supply in some areas because training a priest takes a lot of time and effort.

In some non-denominational groups training a pastor doesn't take a lot of time or effort.
​

And there are a lot of other reasons that no doubt contribute, but at least you recognize that there IS a shortage.

Did you happen to see this previous post of mine?
It appears to be major news concerning the RCC priest shortage


http://www.christianforums.com/t7771595/#post64174669

Catholic Church turns to Anglicans to fill U.S. priest shortage - CBS News
Catholic Church turns to Anglicans to fill U.S. priest shortage
March 20, 2013 7:25 PM




.

 

[Rev Randy]

Protestant error and invention : senior pastor replacing role of pope

(P.S. where's the catholic thread so i can comment on the error of there being a pope? )

Now just who's side are you on? The EO? Laa dee daa

 

[Rev Randy]

I reckon that Catholic priests are in short supply in some areas because training a priest takes a lot of time and effort.

In some non-denominational groups training a pastor doesn't take a lot of time or effort.

I reckon some have absolutely no training at all. I've met quite a few who openly admit to it. But they generally say the Holy Spirit taught them overnight. Odd that it took three years for St. Paul.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I reckon some have absolutely no training at all. I've met quite a few who openly admit to it. But they generally say the Holy Spirit taught them overnight. Odd that it took three years for St. Paul.

Maybe even longer, if you read Galatians a certain way...He was in the desert a good long time...

 

[Rev Randy]

Not real sure, but consider this:
In my diocese, a priest, whether bishop, monsignior, pastor, associate pastor, or auxiliary, earns $25,000 a year. He's expected to live on the grounds of the parish, if he's the pastor, and if not the pastor, has to live where they give him to live. If we were to allow married clergy, do you think a couple could live on that salary, even if they were permitted to live on church property? Also, what does that do to health care costs, insurance, etc?

For practical reasons, I don't see it happening any time soon. I have heard Protestant pastors, who are supposedly full time, needing to take on a second or third job in order to support the family. This does not leave any time for the pastor to pastor.

Well I won't say that I was paid to the point of luxury but they don't have a Walmart in the Congo so there really wasn't much to spend a load on. And now, come on. Is that all the church can afford to support a parish priest in the West? The little (about 120 member of which about 75 were regular)Baptist Church i pastored paid me around 40k a good ways back and managed to build a new building, support a home for troubled girls and two South American missions and still tithed to the conference.
My wife used to laugh after i was placed in my Parish when she'd see my pay, saying. "Well, you are definitely not in this for the money.

You have a valid point. But just like a vow of celibacy one needs to consider these things beforehand. I agree that one in a pastoral position does not have the time for a second job. That is if he's really going to do the work.Yes brother, it is easier for one to be unmarried and be a priest. My wife has quite a few friends who are wives of priests. She can give you a long list of gripes. It takes a special woman to be married to a man who can't always put her first after Christ in his attention. I'm a fortunate man to be married to such a woman .Presbytera is the title she is given in the Greek side of Orthodoxy. The Church sees her being a part of my Orders as we were joined as one. While she has no given authority she definitely is a great deal of help.In the area I ministered in the locals called her Kidogo Mama (little mother in Swahili) and she was revered highly by them in her role. While the church didn't really define or authoritate her position the people seemed to have it laid out like a woman of intercessory prayer. I think women came to her with as many prayer request as they did me. She stayed busy especially with women's problems.

So why am I telling you this? Just to show there are some advantages along with the hindrances. I'd add counseling troubled marriages into that as an unmarried man doesn't quite see the picture as clearly.
No worries though as I'm sure if rome decided to make the return, as a good catholic you'll deal with it. If not then also no worries.

 

[Stryder06]

Not real sure, but consider this:
In my diocese, a priest, whether bishop, monsignior, pastor, associate pastor, or auxiliary, earns $25,000 a year. He's expected to live on the grounds of the parish, if he's the pastor, and if not the pastor, has to live where they give him to live. If we were to allow married clergy, do you think a couple could live on that salary, even if they were permitted to live on church property? Also, what does that do to health care costs, insurance, etc?


For practical reasons, I don't see it happening any time soon. I have heard Protestant pastors, who are supposedly full time, needing to take on a second or third job in order to support the family. This does not leave any time for the pastor to pastor.

So the discipline to remain single is about practicality and cutting costs?

 

[1Co13]

You really don't know anything about Lutheranism, do you?

I know a little about Luther but he wasn't Crucified for us, and he wasn't an apostle that Jesus gave the commission to. I'm not a Lutheran, i'm a Christian. Can Luther add to the Gospel given by the Lord and the NT apostles? I dont want anything to do with any doctrine connected with RC, Luther was RC and was taught by RC wasn't he? Christ is all we need.

 

[Root of Jesse]

So the discipline to remain single is about practicality and cutting costs?

I don't believe that's what I said. It's a by-product. That a parish pays for its clergy would be a factor.

The fact is that the Church tells its priests "In order to be a priest, you must give up your sexuality." By extension, if the Church allowed married men to become priests, those men would need to earn more to support their family, so either would need a second job, or the Church would need to pay them, and so the parish would have to pay them. There's a lot of other considerations I haven't mentioned. Priests, by nature, must be ready to move to a different post on short notice, for one.

 

[1Co13]

I don't believe that's what I said. It's a by-product. That a parish pays for its clergy would be a factor.

The fact is that the Church tells its priests "In order to be a priest, you must give up your sexuality." By extension, if the Church allowed married men to become priests, those men would need to earn more to support their family, so either would need a second job, or the Church would need to pay them, and so the parish would have to pay them. There's a lot of other considerations I haven't mentioned. Priests, by nature, must be ready to move to a different post on short notice, for one.

The RC payed out hundreds of millions of dollars in lawsuits, so your point doesn't seem to work.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Well I won't say that I was paid to the point of luxury but they don't have a Walmart in the Congo so there really wasn't much to spend a load on. And now, come on. Is that all the church can afford to support a parish priest in the West? The little (about 120 member of which about 75 were regular)Baptist Church i pastored paid me around 40k a good ways back and managed to build a new building, support a home for troubled girls and two South American missions and still tithed to the conference.
My wife used to laugh after i was placed in my Parish when she'd see my pay, saying. "Well, you are definitely not in this for the money.

Were you expected to provide your own housing and utilities? Health care? Food? Car? Much of this is provided for the priest. Not a car, nor gas or auto insurance.

You have a valid point. But just like a vow of celibacy one needs to consider these things beforehand. I agree that one in a pastoral position does not have the time for a second job. That is if he's really going to do the work.Yes brother, it is easier for one to be unmarried and be a priest. My wife has quite a few friends who are wives of priests. She can give you a long list of gripes. It takes a special woman to be married to a man who can't always put her first after Christ in his attention. I'm a fortunate man to be married to such a woman .Presbytera is the title she is given in the Greek side of Orthodoxy. The Church sees her being a part of my Orders as we were joined as one. While she has no given authority she definitely is a great deal of help.In the area I ministered in the locals called her Kidogo Mama (little mother in Swahili) and she was revered highly by them in her role. While the church didn't really define or authoritate her position the people seemed to have it laid out like a woman of intercessory prayer. I think women came to her with as many prayer request as they did me. She stayed busy especially with women's problems.

So why am I telling you this? Just to show there are some advantages along with the hindrances. I'd add counseling troubled marriages into that as an unmarried man doesn't quite see the picture as clearly.
No worries though as I'm sure if rome decided to make the return, as a good catholic you'll deal with it. If not then also no worries.

Well, in a way, the priest is married, and has children. He's married to the Church, to the parish. The flock is his children. He can talk about things like what marriage means in terms of 100% committment, no matter what, come he** or high water.

I don't think I'm leaving the one true Church because Rome makes an administrative change. My parish priest is in his 60's and knew as a boy of 10 that he was going to be a priest, and was ready to say "Here I am, Lord." I also know married priests who were Anglican prior to becoming Catholic. I don't see a drop-off. But I've not been his flock, either. B ut I know he runs a good parish.

 

[1Co13]

Were you expected to provide your own housing and utilities? Health care? Food? Car? Much of this is provided for the priest. Not a car, nor gas or auto insurance.


Well, in a way, the priest is married, and has children. He's married to the Church, to the parish. The flock is his children. He can talk about things like what marriage means in terms of 100% committment, no matter what, come he** or high water.

I don't think I'm leaving the one true Church because Rome makes an administrative change. My parish priest is in his 60's and knew as a boy of 10 that he was going to be a priest, and was ready to say "Here I am, Lord." I also know married priests who were Anglican prior to becoming Catholic. I don't see a drop-off. But I've not been his flock, either. B ut I know he runs a good parish.

Read this scripture in order, look at the context which speaks of married bishops then see how it moves right into the prophecy in chapter 4:1-3. It seems undeniable that RC is teaching a false doctrine concerning priests.

1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

1Ti 3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
1Ti 3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
1Ti 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by GratiaCorpusChristi

You really don't know anything about Lutheranism, do you?
​

I know a little about Luther but he wasn't Crucified for us, and he wasn't an apostle that Jesus gave the commission to. I'm not a Lutheran, i'm a Christian. Can Luther add to the Gospel given by the Lord and the NT apostles? I dont want anything to do with any doctrine connected with RC, Luther was RC and was taught by RC wasn't he?
Christ is all we need.

If only it were that simple!



.

 

[1Co13]

If only it were that simple!



.

It is.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Joh 14:25 ¶ These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Php 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice.
Php 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
Php 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
Php 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
Php 4:9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Read this scripture in order, look at the context which speaks of married bishops then see how it moves right into the prophecy in chapter 4:1-3. It seems undeniable that RC is teaching a false doctrine concerning priests.

1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

1Ti 3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
1Ti 3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
1Ti 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

We don't believe that this passage says that the Church can't require celibacy of her priests. It says, better, that a bishop cannot be someone who's divorced and remarried, etc., a list the qualifications required: personal stability and graciousness; talent for teaching (1 Tm 3:2); moderation in habits and temperament (1 Tm 3:3); managerial ability (1 Tm 3:4); and experience in Christian living (1 Tm 3:5–6). Moreover, the candidate’s previous life should provide no grounds for the charge that he did not previously practice what he now preaches. No list of qualifications for presbyters appears in 1 Timothy.

Regarding the second highlight, there is nothing that forbids men to marry. The requirement, rather, is that those who want to become priests must give up their sexuality. Sorta like giving the requirements to an athlete, that he must not eat certain foods, must not take steroids, and must get good sleep every night-if he doesn't, he shouldn't be an athlete.

 

[1Co13]

We don't believe that this passage says that the Church can't require celibacy of her priests. It says, better, that a bishop cannot be someone who's divorced and remarried, etc., a list the qualifications required: personal stability and graciousness; talent for teaching (1 Tm 3:2); moderation in habits and temperament (1 Tm 3:3); managerial ability (1 Tm 3:4); and experience in Christian living (1 Tm 3:5–6). Moreover, the candidate’s previous life should provide no grounds for the charge that he did not previously practice what he now preaches. No list of qualifications for presbyters appears in 1 Timothy.

Regarding the second highlight, there is nothing that forbids men to marry. The requirement, rather, is that those who want to become priests must give up their sexuality. Sorta like giving the requirements to an athlete, that he must not eat certain foods, must not take steroids, and must get good sleep every night-if he doesn't, he shouldn't be an athlete.

I respectfully disagree.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Now just who's side are you on? The EO? Laa dee daa

i was thinking something like that after posting it . hehe

 

[Root of Jesse]

I respectfully disagree.

That's fine, but I hope you're not one of those Yogi Berra guys...

"When you come to a fork in the road...take it."


There are some life decisions that totally close the door for other possibilities. And in the Catholic Church, it's no secret-to be a priest, you must give your sexuality as a gift to God. Some people see it as a great thing to do. Some try it, and discern that they should be married. No harm, no foul. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Some ask God to provide them a spouse, and God grants their request-He gives them Christ. Women who do this are known as consecrated virgins. They remain in the world, work in the world, and so on, but they are brides of Christ, and choose celibacy.

Some ask God to provide them a spouse, and he grants their request-He gives them the Church. Of course, just as above, it's the same thing. Others join a religious order, and do the same thing-sometimes closed off from the world completely. There's many ways to live the devout life.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by 1Co13

I respectfully disagree.
​

That's fine, but I hope you're not one of those Yogi Berra guys...

"When you come to a fork in the road...take it."


There are some life decisions that totally close the door for other possibilities.....

Tis called being "closed minded"

Eze 21:21
“For the king of Babylon stands at the parting of the road, at the fork of the two roads, to use divination:
he shakes the arrows, he consults the images, he looks at the liver.

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Michael Collum

Protestant error and invention : senior pastor replacing role of pope

(P.S. where's the catholic thread so i can comment on the error of there being a pope? )
​

Here is one, but alas, it is still closed for review

http://www.christianforums.com/t6870602-88/
Roman church errors and inventions

Now just who's side are you on? The EO? Laa dee daa

i was thinking something like that after posting it . hehe

Any side but the RC side?



.