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Proper Christian Behavior Does Not Include

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dead2self

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A few questions.

I believe that HIV/AIDS is in fact a huge problem for homosexual men. I have seen enough data to believe that male to male sex is indeed the single largest way this disease is spread.

Now, whether or not I view homsexual sex as a sin, would it be loving of me towards homosexual men to not make some effort to warn them?

On the flip side, if HIV/AIDS is indeed a "gay plague", then is it loving to ignore that based solely on the fact that it might offend homosexuals?

Just because someone has a point of view opposed to yours does not mean they are not acting out of love for those you are defending.
 
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KCKID

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A few questions.

I believe that HIV/AIDS is in fact a huge problem for homosexual men. I have seen enough data to believe that male to male sex is indeed the single largest way this disease is spread.

Now, whether or not I view homsexual sex as a sin, would it be loving of me towards homosexual men to not make some effort to warn them?

On the flip side, if HIV/AIDS is indeed a "gay plague", then is it loving to ignore that based solely on the fact that it might offend homosexuals?

Just because someone has a point of view opposed to yours does not mean they are not acting out of love for those you are defending.

So, what should homosexuals do, dead2self? You've warned them (of what? one might ask) so are they supposed to turn 'straight' ...just like that? Or do they fess up and say that they were 'straight' all along and were merely feigning 'gay-ness' just to annoy the c--p out of Christians? Or, do they commit to celibacy for the rest of their lives and take a cold shower as often as need be? What, precisely, do you suggest? I mean ...seriously?

If you DO have some advice to give could you make the advice as constructive as possible and avoid quoting some probably already worn-out Bible passage? I'm not meaning to belittle the Bible but scriptures are, for the most part, unhelpful. Anyway, most homosexuals know the 'clout' scriptures off by heart.

Thanks.
 
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dead2self

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True, I personally do not make a distinction between homosexual and heterosexual promiscuity. But that sidesteps my point. The simple fact is that it is a lot harder for a man to get HIV/AIDS from heterosexual sex than homosexual sex. Given that, is it really loving towards homosexuals to pretend otherwise? Leaving all morality aside, there are medical risks here that should be adressed. The problem is that when they are it is seen as gay-bashing. I would submit that the gay-bashers are those who would dogmatically deny medical facts that could save the lives of practicing homosexuals.
 
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dead2self

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So, what should homosexuals do, dead2self? You've warned them (of what? one might ask) so are they supposed to turn 'straight' ...just like that? Or do they fess up and say that they were 'straight' all along and were merely feigning 'gay-ness' just to annoy the c--p out of Christians? Or, do they commit to celibacy for the rest of their lives and take a cold shower as often as need be? What, precisely, do you suggest? I mean ...seriously?

If you DO have some advice to give could you make the advice as constructive as possible and avoid quoting some probably already worn-out Bible passage? I'm not meaning to belittle the Bible but scriptures are, for the most part, unhelpful. Anyway, most homosexuals know the 'clout' scriptures off by heart.

Thanks.

Maybe if you would actually answer my question instead of railing against me we'ed have a starting point my friend. If I have posted even 1 word to give offence in this thread I would ask you to show me. Not one time did I condemn homosexual behaviour, though I am against it. Not one time did I belittle anyone. I did not accuse any homosexual of being a closet heterosexual. I also did not even hint at apouting off a single verse from the Bible.

But this really does show why I ask. You are opposed to my views on this, so I must be out to put down and bash homosexuals. I, and the others here who have mentioned the medical risks simply cannot be acting out of love and concern for anyone in danger now can we?

What I ask you directly is this. Are you acting in a loving matter by either ignoring or denying the claims that the homosexual lifestyle carries a very heightened risk of HIV/AIDS based on your own brand of dogma?
 
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fragmentsofdreams

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True, I personally do not make a distinction between homosexual and heterosexual promiscuity. But that sidesteps my point. The simple fact is that it is a lot harder for a man to get HIV/AIDS from heterosexual sex than homosexual sex. Given that, is it really loving towards homosexuals to pretend otherwise? Leaving all morality aside, there are medical risks here that should be adressed. The problem is that when they are it is seen as gay-bashing. I would submit that the gay-bashers are those who would dogmatically deny medical facts that could save the lives of practicing homosexuals.

The relative dangers of various actions should not be denied, but neither should they be overstated or overgeneralized. A homosexual man can take actions to drastically reduce his risk of being infected by HIV.
 
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fragmentsofdreams

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Maybe if you would actually answer my question instead of railing against me we'ed have a starting point my friend. If I have posted even 1 word to give offence in this thread I would ask you to show me. Not one time did I condemn homosexual behaviour, though I am against it. Not one time did I belittle anyone. I did not accuse any homosexual of being a closet heterosexual. I also did not even hint at apouting off a single verse from the Bible.

But this really does show why I ask. You are opposed to my views on this, so I must be out to put down and bash homosexuals. I, and the others here who have mentioned the medical risks simply cannot be acting out of love and concern for anyone in danger now can we?

What I ask you directly is this. Are you acting in a loving matter by either ignoring or denying the claims that the homosexual lifestyle carries a very heightened risk of HIV/AIDS based on your own brand of dogma?

The problem with the question is that there is no one homosexual lifestyle. Depending on his actions, a homosexual man's chances of being infected with HIV can be very high or very low. Lumping all of these choices together obscures the truth rather than clarifying.
 
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dead2self

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The relative dangers of various actions should not be denied, but neither should they be overstated or overgeneralized. A homosexual man can take actions to drastically reduce his risk of being infected by HIV.

I agree completely.
 
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KCKID

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Maybe if you would actually answer my question instead of railing against me we'ed have a starting point my friend. If I have posted even 1 word to give offence in this thread I would ask you to show me. Not one time did I condemn homosexual behaviour, though I am against it. Not one time did I belittle anyone. I did not accuse any homosexual of being a closet heterosexual. I also did not even hint at apouting off a single verse from the Bible.

But this really does show why I ask. You are opposed to my views on this, so I must be out to put down and bash homosexuals. I, and the others here who have mentioned the medical risks simply cannot be acting out of love and concern for anyone in danger now can we?

What I ask you directly is this. Are you acting in a loving matter by either ignoring or denying the claims that the homosexual lifestyle carries a very heightened risk of HIV/AIDS based on your own brand of dogma?

You're right. I stand corrected and I humbly apologize for having appeared to place you in the same category as some others on this subforum. I really didn't intend to do that, in fact I believe from having read your post that I COULD ask you such questions and receive intelligent responses. My delivery was not as good as it might have been. Sorry. I CAN see concern for others in your post. You're also correct in bringing to my attention the fact that dogma is/can be evident on both sides of this issue.

If you have any constructive advice/comments/input re the issue of homosexuality and the questions I posed, however, feel free to post them.
 
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dead2self

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The problem with the question is that there is no one homosexual lifestyle. Depending on his actions, a homosexual man's chances of being infected with HIV can be very high or very low. Lumping all of these choices together obscures the truth rather than clarifying.

Very true. But I think it is clear that the risky behaviour, as it is among heterosexuals, is promiscuity. Even a cautious single partner kind of person can be placed in extreme danger by a wandering partner whether heterosexual or homosexual. It is not my intention to lump anything together. It is a complex issue.

What I am asking, however, is really rhetorical so I'll simply state it ratehr than play word games.

If one has information pertaining to the safety of another, it is loving to share it. Differing morality does not change this.

On the other hand, denying said information without solid proof is unloving. This holds true even if the motive is to defend their chosen lifestyle.

I posted these questions as I saw that others had indeed posted medical information pertaining to the spread of a horrible disease. Instead of a reasonable discourse, it seemed to me that the information was dismissed out of had by some and the poster was labelled with some rather unpleasant things. Nowhere did I see even a hint that anyone considered that the motive for posting might be compassion or love. At best, the attitude seemed to be "Yeah..What of it?"

While I will stipulate that as a group, Christians have sinned greatly in our treatment of the sin of homosexual behaviour. Many of us rail against it and go home to look at porn. But there are some of us who have genuine concern for the welfare of others. It just seems that this is an issue that polarizes us so badly that there is very rarely any loving discourse.
 
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dead2self

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You're right. I stand corrected and I humbly apologize for having appeared to place you in the same category as some others on this subforum. I really didn't intend to do that, in fact I believe from having read your post that I COULD ask you such questions and receive intelligent responses. My delivery was not as good as it might have been. Sorry. I CAN see concern for others in your post. You're also correct in bringing to my attention the fact that dogma is/can be evident on both sides of this issue.

If you have any constructive advice/comments/input re the issue of homosexuality and the questions I posed, however, feel free to post them.

How I wish I had all the answers my friend. No worries about any offense. I speak far too rashly far too often. As for the questions you asked, I will make an attempt.

Before doing so, I will stipulate that I hold to the view that marriage is only between a man and a woman and homosexual activity is a sin. I will not give verses for as you have said, most homosexuals know them better than I and find them unhelpful. I also want no debate as that debate is long since played out. I only say all this as it will colour my advice. I am Christian and believe Jesus is the only way. You need to know where I stand. If you can accept that that is my view, then here are my answers. If not, you will not find much of use.

Really my advice to homosexuals would be the same as for heterosexuals. Complete celibacy outside of a male-female marriage. Did I do this? No. But I believe it to be Biblical and right. Not only that, but I see monogamy as the only safe option. Also, I do not see it as necessarily a bad thing to be celibate for life. While I understand that our culture makes much out of sex and our sex drive there is a higher joy than sex can provide. Sex is but a foreshadow and a symbol of much greater things to come, as is marriage.

As for turning straight, that is simply ridiculous. If they could, I am sure many of them would have, if only to avoid the stigma of homosexuality. No, the fact is that one cannot be debated into changing in this anymore than I could overcome sin in my life intellectually. God is the only one who can change our hearts.

If there is a Christian struggling with this, then prayer is the answer. Only God can give victory. There are also some great resources for helping those in this situation.

Of course I know many Christians do not hold the view that homosexual behaviour is sinful. To them, and to non-Christians, I would simply advise to spend time in the word and in prayer. Perhaps one day God will convict you in your heart that this is sin. Or perhaps He will not. Either way, spend time with Him. He will do what He knows is best for those who seek Him.
 
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Phinehas2

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Proper Christian Behavior Does Not Include

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maligning and scapegoating gays and lesbians.

People who go out of their way to spread misinformation about gays and lesbians are not behaving in a Christ like manner. In fact they are serving evil and perverting Christ's message.

It might do. Firstly God didn’t create gays or straights, and a defence of gays could be perverting Christ’s message and more like improper Christian behaviour. God created men and women and as disciples of Christ we are to love all men and women and witness to them the gospel of Jesus Christ. Gay means having same-sex attraction which is an attraction opposite to what God has created see Genesis 2, Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5 where it says God created woman for man ‘for this reason’ a man shall leave his father an mother and be united with his wife and the two shall become one flesh.
 
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Phinehas2

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I think what Dead2Self has outlined is very helpful as if one believes what the scriptures such as 1 Cor 6, 1 Tim 1, Romans 1, 2 Peter 2 and Jude 1 say, that same-sex lifestyles can be a barrier to the Kingdom it would be unloving not to warn and debate.
I also agree that the church and Christians have maligned and mistreated people with same-sex attractions and call themselves gay and lesbian, and thats shameful as well.
 
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Floatingaxe

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maligning and scapegoating gays and lesbians.

People who go out of their way to spread misinformation about gays and lesbians are not behaving in a Christ like manner. In fact they are serving evil and perverting Christ's message.


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People who go out of their way to spread misinformation about God and His word are not behaving in a Christ-like manner. In fact they are serving evil and perverting Christ's message.
 
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Texas Lynn

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A few questions.

I believe that HIV/AIDS is in fact a huge problem for homosexual men. I have seen enough data to believe that male to male sex is indeed the single largest way this disease is spread.

Not when safe sex is engaged in or when people are circumspect. Certainly a couple which does not play around and in which neither of them are infected do not spread the disease at all.

Now, whether or not I view homsexual sex as a sin, would it be loving of me towards homosexual men to not make some effort to warn them?

It seems the question is presumptuous. The use of "them" while a proper pronoun, suggests a view of gay men as "the other". And, "warn them" of what? What, indeed, other than what mothers and fathers and all parental figures already warn people of? If the proposed warning is "don't be gay" then it is most inappropriate and condescending.

I assume you are not familiar at all with Gay Men's Health Crisis of New York and affiliated and interrelated groups everywhere, gay community centers and the like. These groups' business is to "warn" people about unsafe sex while affirming and celebrating their LGBT identities. To do otherwise is to harm them.

On the flip side, if HIV/AIDS is indeed a "gay plague", then is it loving to ignore that based solely on the fact that it might offend homosexuals?

The epithet "gay plague" is most unfortunate. Homosexuals are certainly not to blame for AIDS or anything else of that regard. They are to blame for Carson Kressley.

Just because someone has a point of view opposed to yours does not mean they are not acting out of love for those you are defending.

No. But the use of condescension, blaming language, and expression of otherness certainly indicates otherwise.
 
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Texas Lynn

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The simple fact is that it is a lot harder for a man to get HIV/AIDS from heterosexual sex than homosexual sex.

That statement doesn't bear scrutiny. If the man in question has safe sex with a long time nonpromiscuous partner who is not infected the risk is miniscule. If he is married to a promiscuous woman who is infected the opposite is true. The opposite is certainly true in Africa. You seem heck-bent on expressing a lot of sterotypes and attacks on the LGBT community.

Given that, is it really loving towards homosexuals to pretend otherwise? Leaving all morality aside, there are medical risks here that should be adressed. The problem is that when they are it is seen as gay-bashing. I would submit that the gay-bashers are those who would dogmatically deny medical facts that could save the lives of practicing homosexuals.

Some radical faerie queers think what Gay Men's Health Crisis does is gay bashing. it's not. but the finger wagging from the religious right over this most certainly is.

BTW, that term "practicing homosexuals" is most offensive.
 
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