• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Does the Abrahamic god exist?


  • Total voters
    33

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,223
South Africa
✟324,143.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
You realize that you are proving my point for me, right?



If I were to delete Koine Greek, one would not be able to tell if you are discussing alien abductions or the blood libel claims.



Scientifically speaking, it is more likely that another species has located earth and visited it than that a man rose from the dead, walked through walls, disappeared whimsically, and then ascended off of earth.

I am not proving your point as it were, because the accounts of the resurrection aren't as dubious as alien abductions. Please read up on the early accounts and you will see this. Case in point, the title of Pontius Pilate which mainstream Archaeology held to be Procurator and the gospels held to be Prefect. Later, a decree by this governor was found in Israel which gave his title as prefect. There are many such other points I could raise regarding Roman Officials, the Sanhedrin etc. but this one will do for now. The accounts stand up on ancillary points, so have a higher probability on its primary point.
This differs from Alien abductions which tend to be night time events with poor witness tallies and high chances of other physiological events being at play as I had originally stated. Not at all reliable.

On your second point, I agree. My wording was terrible, for which I apologise. I should have made it more clear. I refer to the above regarding the quality of those accounts.

On your third point, I disagree. Scientifically speaking, for another species to visit earth would require advanced space travel with faster than light capabilities, a willingness to do so and a leap of logic that those creatures would in any way resemble earth life or even be capable of being seen as alive by us. The assumptions and chances of any near stars harbouring life as well as the at this stage, theoretical impossibility of faster than light travel coupled with xeno-biologic considerations as to your abduction accounts, makes this highly implausible indeed.
On the other hand, the chance of men being "scientifically dead" and becoming alive again is far more plausible. This has happened quite frequently where medicine has declared someone dead only for them to actually still be alive. I am a doctor, so I know this to be the case and have read case studies. I don't think this is the case with Jesus of course, but for the sake of argument "men rising from the dead" has happened in many a morgue and operating theatre.
Also, your further argument is assuming a "science" basis. Please tell me on what methodology you base the assertion that it is more probable for aliens to visit us than the Resurrection accounts, for on the Historical-Critical method, this is not the case. You are assuming your own point here, not very scientific of you.
 
Upvote 0

throughfiierytrial

Truth-Lover
Site Supporter
Apr 7, 2014
2,916
813
✟639,642.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Your claim, try supporting it. I'm interested in the dishonest quote mining you have most likely done.

I can live with you thinking that of me...Hawkings' beliefs are well published and he has even done television interviews...if you want to continue to be a good, faithful atheist read your sources. We as Christians read, study and adore the Word of God, now you are one seemingly requiring me to know and quote both ends of the argument. A big red F for you on atheist homework.
 
  • Like
Reactions: civilwarbuff
Upvote 0

Archaeopteryx

Wanderer
Jul 1, 2007
22,229
2,608
✟78,240.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I can live with you thinking that of me...Hawkings' beliefs are well published and he has even done television interviews...if you want to continue to be a good, faithful atheist read your sources. We as Christians read, study and adore the Word of God, now you are one seemingly requiring me to know and quote both ends of the argument. A big red F for you on atheist homework.
No, you're being asked to support your claims. If that is too much for you, then so long...
 
Upvote 0

JonFromMinnesota

Well-Known Member
Sep 3, 2015
2,171
1,608
Minnesota
✟60,266.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
I can live with you thinking that of me...Hawkings' beliefs are well published and he has even done television interviews...if you want to continue to be a good, faithful atheist read your sources.

*Yawn*. So you can't support your claim? Got it.
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
41
California
✟156,979.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Noted your signature..."from stardust thou art, and unto stardust shalt thou return."

*For* stardust thou art...

It *may* interest you to know (but probably won't even phase you...you being atheist and all)

What exactly is that supposed to mean?

that all the space quest of the human race is quite prophesied in the Scriptures...

I doubt that. Have you read the Tower of Babel story?

Obadiah 3:4:
Though you soar like the eagle
and make your nest among the stars,
from there I will bring you down,”
declares the Lord.

See, haven't given up on you entirely.

If you want to count that as a prophecy then I think there are dozens of religions that have prophesied the space quest.
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
41
California
✟156,979.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I am not proving your point as it were, because the accounts of the resurrection aren't as dubious as alien abductions. Please read up on the early accounts and you will see this. Case in point, the title of Pontius Pilate which mainstream Archaeology held to be Procurator and the gospels held to be Prefect. Later, a decree by this governor was found in Israel which gave his title as prefect. There are many such other points I could raise regarding Roman Officials, the Sanhedrin etc. but this one will do for now. The accounts stand up on ancillary points, so have a higher probability on its primary point.

Non sequitur. Pilate's exact status has nothing to do with the historicity of the resurrection.

This differs from Alien abductions which tend to be night time events with poor witness tallies and high chances of other physiological events being at play as I had originally stated. Not at all reliable.

And the disciples were extremely distraught after the crucifixion, so by this logic we should dismiss their testimonies.

Let's look at the facts here.

1.) There are many instances of people swearing up and down that they saw and even interacted with a deceased loved one.
2.) Bartholomew wrote nothing down. Thomas wrote nothing down. And etc. No one wrote anything down. Even if we go with the completely false assumption that Matthew and John were eyewitness accounts (in which case, I suppose, Thomas had a gospel of his own), you have two disciples claiming on behalf of themselves and all the others that they personally saw the risen Jesus. How do you know Matthew and John didn't have a grief-derived experience which they shared as being very real with the other disciples to the point that they believed it, and that when they wrote it down thirty years later in a different language they embellished the story?
3.) The risen Jesus was constantly appearing and disappearing. He was often unrecognizable. How do you know it wasn't just one disciple seeing the gardener and then, in his state of grief, believing it was Jesus? I am not proposing mass delusion, just the delusion of one or two individuals which was believed by the others. And even then... I do not even believe this is what happened, but it is a plausible explanation if you force me to accept the false premise that the gospels are eyewitness accounts.

On your second point, I agree. My wording was terrible, for which I apologise. I should have made it more clear. I refer to the above regarding the quality of those accounts.

No, your wording was perfect. That's the point. The claims are so similar that you can make only a few alterations and you won't be able to tell one story from another.

On your third point, I disagree. Scientifically speaking, for another species to visit earth would require advanced space travel with faster than light capabilities,

Why is faster-than-light travel a requirement?

a willingness to do so and a leap of logic that those creatures would in any way resemble earth life or even be capable of being seen as alive by us.

I agree that they might not recognize us as living entities, or vice versa, but it is not impossible that humanoids might exist on other planets. By all accounts, the resurrection story is impossible.

The assumptions and chances of any near stars harbouring life as well as the at this stage, theoretical impossibility of faster than light travel coupled with xeno-biologic considerations as to your abduction accounts, makes this highly implausible indeed.

I do not know why you think that nearby stars harboring life at this stage of the universe is unlikely.

I agree that faster-than-light travel is impossible, but I don't see your point. I realize that they must travel vast distances, but there is no reason that they cannot send unfertilized sex cells (presuming, of course, they procreate that way) or whatever their equivalent may be, and then have an automated system running the ship for millions of years of travel. Once they achieve maximum velocity, nearly everything can be shut down to conserve energy. Then, when they are close enough to earth, the machines create the aliens and instruct them on what the mission is.

The xeno-biological considerations do not make anything impossible.


On the other hand, the chance of men being "scientifically dead" and becoming alive again is far more plausible. This has happened quite frequently where medicine has declared someone dead only for them to actually still be alive. I am a doctor, so I know this to be the case and have read case studies. I don't think this is the case with Jesus of course, but for the sake of argument "men rising from the dead" has happened in many a morgue and operating theatre.

Straw man. I specifically mentioned how Jesus walked through walls, disappeared at his whim, and ascended into the sky. I never said it would be more likely that alien abduction accounts are true in comparison to a half-dead Jesus crawling out of the tomb.

Also, your further argument is assuming a "science" basis. Please tell me on what methodology you base the assertion that it is more probable for aliens to visit us than the Resurrection accounts, for on the Historical-Critical method, this is not the case. You are assuming your own point here, not very scientific of you.

Huh? Our methods of determining history assume that the laws of science do not change over time. Therefore the assumption of a "science" basis is well founded in the discipline of history.
 
Upvote 0

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,223
South Africa
✟324,143.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Non sequitur. Pilate's exact status has nothing to do with the historicity of the resurrection.



And the disciples were extremely distraught after the crucifixion, so by this logic we should dismiss their testimonies.

Let's look at the facts here.

1.) There are many instances of people swearing up and down that they saw and even interacted with a deceased loved one.
2.) Bartholomew wrote nothing down. Thomas wrote nothing down. And etc. No one wrote anything down. Even if we go with the completely false assumption that Matthew and John were eyewitness accounts (in which case, I suppose, Thomas had a gospel of his own), you have two disciples claiming on behalf of themselves and all the others that they personally saw the risen Jesus. How do you know Matthew and John didn't have a grief-derived experience which they shared as being very real with the other disciples to the point that they believed it, and that when they wrote it down thirty years later in a different language they embellished the story?
3.) The risen Jesus was constantly appearing and disappearing. He was often unrecognizable. How do you know it wasn't just one disciple seeing the gardener and then, in his state of grief, believing it was Jesus? I am not proposing mass delusion, just the delusion of one or two individuals which was believed by the others. And even then... I do not even believe this is what happened, but it is a plausible explanation if you force me to accept the false premise that the gospels are eyewitness accounts.



No, your wording was perfect. That's the point. The claims are so similar that you can make only a few alterations and you won't be able to tell one story from another.



Why is faster-than-light travel a requirement?



I agree that they might not recognize us as living entities, or vice versa, but it is not impossible that humanoids might exist on other planets. By all accounts, the resurrection story is impossible.



I do not know why you think that nearby stars harboring life at this stage of the universe is unlikely.

I agree that faster-than-light travel is impossible, but I don't see your point. I realize that they must travel vast distances, but there is no reason that they cannot send unfertilized sex cells (presuming, of course, they procreate that way) or whatever their equivalent may be, and then have an automated system running the ship for millions of years of travel. Once they achieve maximum velocity, nearly everything can be shut down to conserve energy. Then, when they are close enough to earth, the machines create the aliens and instruct them on what the mission is.

The xeno-biological considerations do not make anything impossible.




Straw man. I specifically mentioned how Jesus walked through walls, disappeared at his whim, and ascended into the sky. I never said it would be more likely that alien abduction accounts are true in comparison to a half-dead Jesus crawling out of the tomb.



Huh? Our methods of determining history assume that the laws of science do not change over time. Therefore the assumption of a "science" basis is well founded in the discipline of history.

This is all about probability. So, if something is historically accurate, that means that the probability increases. Therefore Pilate's title is relevant.
As to your explanation of the Aliens and there arrival, that whole scenario is very unlikely indeed and the probability for it is ridiculously low. This along with the poor quality abduction reports was my point.

To your statement of the Apostles being distraught and Jesus' activities etc. this is beside the point since we are arguing the Resurrection versus Alien Abduction on the Historical critical method. It does not mean we need to accept every detail as completely true, again its about Probability. Multiple accounts with accurate additional information and some miraculous information versus poor quality single accounts with equally miraculous aspects. Obviously the former remains more probable.
Also, I never said the gospels were eye-witness accounts, they need only be independent and not culturally derived. This cannot be said of any alien abduction account.

What I meant with my last assertion was that you have never shown by any scientific method whatsoever that Alien abductions are more likely than the Resurrection, but have been talking as if that is the case. I was merely asking for the method you used to decide this to be the case, for I think this was likely only an assumption on your part.
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
41
California
✟156,979.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
This is all about probability. So, if something is historically accurate, that means that the probability increases. Therefore Pilate's title is relevant.

So if an abductee is watching a baseball game and correctly relays the events of the game at or around the time he was being abducted, and these events are minor details which were not documented and it is also shown that he did not record the game and watch it later, then by your logic the probability of his story being true increases.

As to your explanation of the Aliens and there arrival, that whole scenario is very unlikely indeed and the probability for it is ridiculously low.

And yet when I say the resurrection is ridiculously low in probability of occurrence you say that I'm veering off topic.

This along with the poor quality abduction reports was my point.

In what sense are the abduction reports of less quality than that of the resurrection?

Alien abduction reports are not anonymous. They are subjected to scrutiny. Documented and recorded. Examined by professionals. Any of that apply to the resurrection?

To your statement of the Apostles being distraught and Jesus' activities etc. this is beside the point since we are arguing the Resurrection versus Alien Abduction on the Historical critical method.

The method that historians use to evaluate historical events absolutely 100% does not allow for miracles. You were wrong before the argument began.

It does not mean we need to accept every detail as completely true, again its about Probability.

The probability of the resurrection account is as close to zero as an event can possibly be.

Multiple accounts with accurate additional information and some miraculous information versus poor quality single accounts with equally miraculous aspects. Obviously the former remains more probable.

Alien abduction claims are fantastical but NOT miraculous.

I would believe you if you told me you have $56 in your wallet. I won't believe you if you claim to have $100,000 in your wallet. That doesn't mean it would be miraculous for you to have it.

Alien abduction claims are almost certainly false but as purported events they are entirely naturalistic.

Also I don't know why you keep saying there are multiple independent accounts of the resurrection. Mark came first and Matthew & Luke used it as a source. They also embellished it. But the original Mark manuscripts did not mention anything about the resurrection other than an empty tomb and a boy inside saying Jesus had risen. The last dozen verses are known to be a forgery and are the basis for the resurrection claims of the other gospels, even John.

I simply do not know why you say these accounts are better than the first hand abductee accounts which are often times recited under hypnosis. They even have physical scars like scoop marks.

Also, I never said the gospels were eye-witness accounts, they need only be independent and not culturally derived. This cannot be said of any alien abduction account.

Your wording is off again. Alien abduction accounts are eyewitness accounts and we cannot say this of the gospels. Abduction accounts are generally given immediately, not forty years later. Yet you completely ignore those criteria and claim that the reports are invalid because it's a cultural phenomenon. Care to explain the very first one then?

What I meant with my last assertion was that you have never shown by any scientific method whatsoever that Alien abductions are more likely than the Resurrection, but have been talking as if that is the case.

They are more likely because alien life is feasible and I explained how they might travel. A resurrected man walking through walls is entirely unfeasible.

I was merely asking for the method you used to decide this to be the case, for I think this was likely only an assumption on your part.

Alien abduction claims are entirely naturalistic, and the resurrection claim is not.
 
Upvote 0

PapaZoom

Well-Known Member
Nov 3, 2013
4,377
4,392
car
✟66,806.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
When I weigh the evidence, I see that God is either unable or unwilling to keep his holy book perfect, and I find neither to be acceptable.

And I appreciate your willingness to look at the evidence. Not everyone is willing to do even that.
 
Upvote 0

Xalith

Newbie
Apr 6, 2015
1,518
630
✟27,443.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
And I appreciate your willingness to look at the evidence. Not everyone is willing to do even that.

Yes, I agree and do give him that, even though he is a little quick to brush off what we do give him without even attempting the benefit of the doubt in favor of God, but I suppose some people are just so deeply rooted in skepticism that it will take nothing less than Him appearing in the sky.

I just hope that when that day happens... that people like him will remember what we said, and repent for all of the time they disbelieved, and not end up in the group who ends up blaspheming Him because of the hardships that would follow afterward.
 
Upvote 0

PapaZoom

Well-Known Member
Nov 3, 2013
4,377
4,392
car
✟66,806.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Yes, I agree and do give him that, even though he is a little quick to brush off what we do give him without even attempting the benefit of the doubt in favor of God, but I suppose some people are just so deeply rooted in skepticism that it will take nothing less than Him appearing in the sky.

I just hope that when that day happens... that people like him will remember what we said, and repent for all of the time they disbelieved, and not end up in the group who ends up blaspheming Him because of the hardships that would follow afterward.

Those are my feelings on the matter as well. Most atheists I've talked to about God are aware of the arguments, both philosophical and scientific, for the existence of a Super Intelligence. Many atheists I've chatted with were more interested in making me look foolish than actually examining the evidence. In fact most characterized what I presented as evidence as "not evidence."

From the many articles and books I've read, I know of many who when from non-belief to belief based on evidence they examined. Why one atheist rejects the same evidence another embraces is a mystery to me. It's not a matter of intelligence IMO. It's ultimately a matter of the heart.
 
Upvote 0

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,223
South Africa
✟324,143.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
So if an abductee is watching a baseball game and correctly relays the events of the game at or around the time he was being abducted, and these events are minor details which were not documented and it is also shown that he did not record the game and watch it later, then by your logic the probability of his story being true increases.



And yet when I say the resurrection is ridiculously low in probability of occurrence you say that I'm veering off topic.



In what sense are the abduction reports of less quality than that of the resurrection?

Alien abduction reports are not anonymous. They are subjected to scrutiny. Documented and recorded. Examined by professionals. Any of that apply to the resurrection?



The method that historians use to evaluate historical events absolutely 100% does not allow for miracles. You were wrong before the argument began.



The probability of the resurrection account is as close to zero as an event can possibly be.



Alien abduction claims are fantastical but NOT miraculous.

I would believe you if you told me you have $56 in your wallet. I won't believe you if you claim to have $100,000 in your wallet. That doesn't mean it would be miraculous for you to have it.

Alien abduction claims are almost certainly false but as purported events they are entirely naturalistic.

Also I don't know why you keep saying there are multiple independent accounts of the resurrection. Mark came first and Matthew & Luke used it as a source. They also embellished it. But the original Mark manuscripts did not mention anything about the resurrection other than an empty tomb and a boy inside saying Jesus had risen. The last dozen verses are known to be a forgery and are the basis for the resurrection claims of the other gospels, even John.

I simply do not know why you say these accounts are better than the first hand abductee accounts which are often times recited under hypnosis. They even have physical scars like scoop marks.



Your wording is off again. Alien abduction accounts are eyewitness accounts and we cannot say this of the gospels. Abduction accounts are generally given immediately, not forty years later. Yet you completely ignore those criteria and claim that the reports are invalid because it's a cultural phenomenon. Care to explain the very first one then?



They are more likely because alien life is feasible and I explained how they might travel. A resurrected man walking through walls is entirely unfeasible.



Alien abduction claims are entirely naturalistic, and the resurrection claim is not.

You should really start reading my posts before replying.
The ancillary information makes it more likely, yes. Your baseball game increases the likelihood, but as this is easily found information not by much. However the gospel account information, held in the face of popular opinion until ultimately it was proven correct such as Pilate's title, increases the likelihood a great deal as it is an independent witness affirmation as well.

As to the gospels. Mark was likely first, followed by Matthew and Luke who perhaps used a hypothetical Q-gospel as source and then John. Please get your facts straight.
In the first place, this is not confirmed and even if we grant it, we still have three independent sources. There are numerous other accounts as well, many with poor theology according to the Church and subsequently excluded, but if we add these we have multiple independent accounts.
As to being an eye-witness, so any historian writing on Gettysburg has to be rejected for not being there? This is nonsense. A poor source remains a poor source if he was an eye-witness or not. The same is true for a good source.

As to alien abductions: They follow the culture my friend. They differ from country to country depending on their preferred aliens, they change after popular movies etc. As to the first and probably most, sleep paralysis and psychological phenomena relating to it and brief psychotic episodes (in the medical sense) would easily explain them. There are actually many accounts from diverse cultures of demons etc. visiting at night that alien believers like to point out, but this is all because it is a side effect of human physiology.

As to alien abductions, they are not naturalistic. They are not empiric. Or are beings descending from heaven then Naturalistic? Don't try and pull a fast one. Besides, that remains an assumption as you have never given me the scientific method you used to establish their probability or do you believe that science can just assume what it wants to be true and it never needs to be tested?
 
Upvote 0