Proof that the Abrahamic god exists?

[expos4ever]

So if there is a zero possibility for this ratio to come into existence by random chance, the clear alternative is to consider at least, the possiblity that a superior, intelligent being, with the knowledge about this ratio and all other natural phenomenon. Not only the knowledge but also the ability to put it all in motion. Intelligence is the only answer. It is the scientific way.

I don't think this line of reasoning really works, although I think there is a version that may have some merit.

Here is the problem with what you are saying: Imagine there is a lottery and every person on earth buys one ticket (assume 7,000,000,000 people on earth). Someone will win the lottery - it is set up that way. The winner will understandably see their win as a miracle. If the number on their ticket was 3,546,768,357 (between 3 and 4 billion), they can argue that if the number selected was off by 1 part in 7,000,000,000, they would not have won.

But there is no "miracles" here, nor is there any need to appeal to anything other than random chance (I trust it is clear why; if not, I can explain). However, if only one ticket was sold (with a number between 1 and 7,000,000,000 on it), and then a computer randomly chose the exact number on that ticket, then, yes, there is every reason to suspect either a miracle or that something is rigged.

Translating back into question at hand, I would agree that if we can be confident that nature did not produce gazillions of other universes in which the ratio you refer to you was not "just right", then I think your argument has merit. However, I think there is no logical or evidentiary basis for ruling out many other parallel universes.

So I think your argument needs to be nuanced a bit.

 

[PapaZoom]

And that approach can never conclude that Jesus rose from the dead any more than the scientific method can conclude that God exists.



They are all the same phenomenon. It is multiple and consistent accounts of the same phenomenon. Please don't try to pull that on me.



So... writing down a story decades later in a different language is not prone to exaggeration, distortion, and embellishment?



Exactly.



You can assure me of this? Really?




Again, you haven't looked into alien abduction accounts. There are accounts of several people being abducted at once. So there's your several accounts of a single event.



I think you need to do research into alien abduction claims and apply the same methodology to them.

Not offered as proof but you might find it at least interesting. Or not.

https://stream.org/surprising-scholarly-agreement-facts-support-jesus-resurrection/

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Not offered as proof but you might find it at least interesting. Or not.

https://stream.org/surprising-scholarly-agreement-facts-support-jesus-resurrection/

Nothing new or innovating about that article. Just the baseless assertion that the resurrection claims were immediate. And then were was this gem: "They were also willing to die for their new faith that they, too, had seen the risen Jesus."

See my first thread on these forums where I explain why that is wrong.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/reasonable-belief-in-the-resurrection.7914245/

 

[DogmaHunter]

Face it, you wouldn't believe in God unless He appeared right in front of you.

An atom or an electron never "appeared in front of us", in the sense that none of us has actually ever seen an individual atom or electron. But none of us have any problem accepting that that is exactly what matter is made of.

There are enough examples like this.

Obviously a complex universe fine tuned for our extraordinary existence isn't enough for you.

To quote Loudmouth: "every universe is 'fine tuned' for the stuff you find in that universe".

There really isn't anything "extra ordinary" about our existence.
We aren't made of rare isotopes or something. In fact, we are build from the most common elements in the universe.

There isn't anything going on in our bodies or physical make up that is "extra ordinary" either. Nothing inside us is breaking any laws of physics or chemistry or whatever.

So I can only wonder what you mean by "extra ordinary" in this context.

Having said that: what else did you expect? That we existed in a universe in which we could NOT exist? Is it really that surprising to you that we find ourselves in a universe in which we can actually exist?

No one convinced me Jesus existed with argumentation or empirical evidence

Indeed.

, but I simply read His word and followed Him as a sheep follows his shepherd.

Indeed.

Exactly the problem.

 

[DogmaHunter]

What kind of scientific evidence do you need? Have you not studied biology? Can you not see the design present in every cell?

Yes. Have you studied biology? Because there is this theory, commonly refered to as "the backbone of biology", which actually explains where this apparant design came from...

 

[DogmaHunter]

If not Him then who?

Loaded question.

How did you conclude that the correct question is "who" in the first place?
What's wrong with "what"?

 

[DogmaHunter]

I gave you my "evidence".....God created the universe. Refute that statement....I don't think you can.....

What is asserted without evidence, can be dissmissed without evidence.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Those who claim God exists and those who declare he doesn't are relying on faith.

Would you say that these claims, and the "faith" for it, are of equal worth?

Let's put that into perspective by changing "God" into "invisible pink unicorn".

Would you say that you require faith for stating that "invisible pink unicorns" don't exist?
If yes, would you say that it requires more or less faith then stating that such unicorns DO in fact exist?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Yes the "prove the Bible is true, but you can't use the Bible."

Nothing wrong with that request.

Evidence in support of the bible would necessarily have to be extra-biblical.
A book is not proof of itself.

 

[DogmaHunter]

How much easier can I make it....I have zero evidence to support my position. You should be able to do it at a snap of the fingers....

For crying out loud.....

If you admit upfront that there is no reason to accept your claim (ie: no evidence), then there is no reason to accept your claim and thus by extension, there is nothing to discuss or refute.

There is no reason to debate claims that have no evidence. All that needs to be done is point out that there is, indeed, no evidence, and move on.

 

[bhsmte]

For crying out loud.....

If you admit upfront that there is no reason to accept your claim (ie: no evidence), then there is no reason to accept your claim and thus by extension, there is nothing to discuss or refute.

There is no reason to debate claims that have no evidence. All that needs to be done is point out that there is, indeed, no evidence, and move on.

Desperation has kicked in, when they ask you to prove a negative.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Do you have a substantiated quote?

"For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them"

~Albert Einstein, written to Eric Gutkind in 1954

This letter was auction somewhere in 2012.


(not that it matters what Einstein, Hawking or Captain Kirk believed)

 

[Hawkins]

"For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them"

View attachment 172478

~Albert Einstein, written to Eric Gutkind in 1954

This letter was auction somewhere in 2012.


(not that it matters what Einstein, Hawking or Captain Kirk believed)

Do you admit that this remains your own speculation without proof? Alternatively speaking, it's your faith.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Do you admit that this remains your own speculation without proof? Alternatively speaking, it's your faith.

Huh? I have no idea what you are talking about....

Someone asked for the literal quote where Einstein said that he thinks that religions are childish. I not only provided the quote, I even provided a screenshot of the letter in question.

So what are you asking about, really? Is it about what I added at the end? That it doesn't matter what Einstein believed?

That's not a question of "faith" or whatever. It indeed doesn't matter what people believe. Einstein is famous for his work in physics. For the things he could demonstrate (or that were demonstrated after he died). That's what matters. What he believed doesn't matter.

 

[bhsmte]

Do you admit that this remains your own speculation without proof? Alternatively speaking, it's your faith.

Did you happen to miss, he posted an actual letter from Einstein.

Einstein's opinions of beliefs in personal deities, is well documented.

 

[Ed1wolf]

1. No anecdotes (personal events)
2. No long commentaries.
3. Use scientific evidence.
4. Preaching is not evidence, but simply restating your claim.
5. No circular logic. (Bible is true because it says so.)

According to the BB theory the universe had a definite beginning and according to a basic law of logic, anything that has a beginning is an effect. Therefore, since the universe is an effect, it must have a cause that is outside of it since the cause cannot be part of the effect. Also, the universe contains purposes, such as eyes are for seeing and ears are for hearing. Therefore whatever caused this universe must have an intelligent mind and be personal because only intelligent persons can create purposes for things. Also, since the universe is diversity within a unity just like the Triune Christian God, it is very likely that the cause and creator of this universe is the Christian God since that characteristic is probably His "fingerprint".

 

[Goonie]

According to the BB theory the universe had a definite beginning and according to a basic law of logic, anything that has a beginning is an effect. Therefore, since the universe is an effect, it must have a cause that is outside of it since the cause cannot be part of the effect. Also, the universe contains purposes, such as eyes are for seeing and ears are for hearing. Therefore whatever caused this universe must have an intelligent mind and be personal because only intelligent persons can create purposes for things. Also, since the universe is diversity within a unity just like the Triune Christian God, it is very likely that the cause and creator of this universe is the Christian God since that characteristic is probably His "fingerprint".

The Flying Spaghetti Monster says "hi". All this particular argument leads to is that scientists cannot rule out an intelligent being from consideration, but the best answer is still "we don't know".

 

[Ed1wolf]

The Flying Spaghetti Monster says "hi". All this particular argument leads to is that scientists cannot rule out an intelligent being from consideration, but the best answer is still "we don't know".

I don't know what you mean by "best" answer, but that is not the most rational answer. It is more rational to believe if there is an effect then you should posit a cause. Scientists do this everyday. They don't just look at an effect and say we don't know just because they emotionally don't like the conclusion even though it is the most rational one. And the Christian God is the most likely cause of this universe. I am not saying that it PROVES God with absolute certainty but it is the most rational conclusion.

 

[dlamberth]

This lover of God thinks that the challenge to prove the existence of any God is rather foolish.
The Divine is to be experienced, not proved.
It's a personal thing. Not a challenge.

 

[AV1611VET]

Proof that the Abrahamic god exists?

Churches, holidays, organizations, bumper stickers, decals, iconography, hymns, carols, martyrs, and time depicted as BC/AD.

If you don't accept that as evidence/proof, consider this:

We know gravity exists, not because we can see it, but because we can see its effects.

The effects of "the Abrahamic god" are everywhere.