Proof God created evil

[Bible Highlighter]

Does light create the darkness? Or is darkness just the absence of light? God is the only source of light and life in the universe. Scripture tells us that those who are spiritually dead refuse to come into the light because their deeds are evil. God made the only way for us to become righteous, through His Son. I am not a Calvinist--therefore, I believe that we can refuse to come to Him and let Him heal us with His heavenly light. I disagree with your statement, "it is impossible for free agents to remain sinless". What of the holy angels? It is clear that the angels are free agents (otherwise, why did Satan and his angels fall?)

Yes, and not just the good angels. The saints will be perfectly holy for all eternity within the New Heavens and New Earth. For there will be no more death, disease, pain, sorrow, etc. This is a path that they have clearly chosen, as well (of their own free will). Evil will be judged and be no more. So this whole judgment on GOD in declaring how creates evil is just non-sense.


...

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So rather than it being a proof for God causing evil, it would be a proof for God causing evil if there are free agents in such a way that satisfies the argument. Fair enough.

Right. So, the argument is disqualified at the onset because its successive conclusions draw from an equivocal line of meaning.

Yes, He is 100% responsible for good as all Christians agree. But the existence of good doesn't negate the potential for us to create good also, it's just that He is the primary cause of good.

Right. Which is why I ended my post with a question: my question indicates that the paradox is also unacceptable, but the resolution of the paradox is something each one of us will have to work out on our own through further inquiry; it's not going to be solved by a group project of deductive thinking.

[Although, I have to admit, it is a "pretty" deduction ... ]

It should become evident that we can't lay 100% of the fault for evil at God's doorstep, and everyone will have to decide on their own to what extent they want to either blame God or blame humanity. And we will also have to decide what we mean by the term "responsible" since to use this term says little to us as to the nature of the intent, causation or the full complexity involved in each instance we apply it. Its meaning is not "self-evident" but vague and is contextualized during its usage by each individual human agent.

As to the problem of God's foreknowledge regarding evil, I resolve it by positing that since He knew humanity would fail, He also knew He would have to create an ontological and moral loophole (~the Christ) through which human beings, by proxy, could be given an opportunity to again choose the good (God) and have it "count" for something, thereby ameliorating the evil they've also chosen which has severed their relationship with God.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[victorinus]

evil is an attribute
-
just like yellow is an attribute -
attributes don't exist
yellow paint exists
yellow does not
-
evil people exist -
evil does not
-
therefore God could not create evil
-
God did create people who later became evil

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am satisfied with this refutation and can return to my original position:
+ free agents were not caused to do evil by God in any way, neither directly nor indirectly

This is 100% true. GOD did not cause any individual to sin directly or indirectly. However, the question of this thread states: "Did God create evil?"
This question asked in the title of the thread leads us to answer about the existence of evil and not the influence or responsibility for evil.
The answer to the question of the thread title would be that GOD indirectly created evil because He created free willed beings that could choose evil. GOD is the creator of the universe and everything within it. Free willed beings who would choose evil would not exist if it was not for GOD.

+ onus for evil lies 100% on the free agents

I agree. This is 100% true.

+ God created the potential to do evil, He did not create evil itself

It is true. God created the potential for evil and God did not create evil itself directly. But GOD knew what would be the result. For the Scriptures say that GOD has declared the end from the beginning. The Scriptures also say that the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. Meaning, GOD had already pre-determined ahead a time that He would have to send His only Son to save us because of the evil that we would do against Him.

However, GOD did indirectly create evil by creating free willed creatures knowing that they would do evil. These free willed agents would not exist if it was not for GOD. But these free willed agents are 100% directly responsible for the evil that they do and not GOD. These free willed agents would be the originators of their own evil. That is the difference.

+ evil would never have been known if free agents had not chosen to disobey God

This is the great mystery that we cannot really know for sure.
We can only hypothesize or guess.
We cannot know with 100% certainty about this.
And it is not important that we do know.
What is important to know is that GOD is good;
And that He always seeks to have a deep and loving relationship with us that is beautiful and good.

+ God did not know whether the free agents would choose evil

There is nothing that GOD does not know. GOD knows the future in perfect detail. For GOD perfectly predicted ahead of time the coming of Jesus to save us. GOD knows what we are going to ask before we are going to even ask it.

Open Theism or the claim that GOD does not know the future is false.

Any final criticisms?

Yes. Please edit your OP (i.e. Original Post) to show that you have found a new conclusion and that the old list 1-8 is false now. While I may not agree with your recent conclusion entirely, it is better than the one presented in your OP. For your OP makes it seem like you are saying those things. For it's why an atheist had liked your OP. For your OP creates doubt that GOD is good. I just recently read your OP now and it still sounds like you are saying those things on that list and not somebody else. Please change or edit your OP if you do not want to mislead people.


...

 

[patdee]

Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

1. God created free agents
2. Free agents have the potential to do evil, e
3. Potential has a non-zero probability, p, where 0<p<1
4. Therefore, over infinite time, the probability of a free agent to perform evil approaches 1 [Let t represent time, then P(e)=1-(p')^t, ∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞]
5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil
6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless
7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil
8. Therefore God created evil

If this is true, is "the end justifies the means" the only response available? In other words, was the value of free agents to God greater than the evil they would create? In times of suffering, is there comfort found in recognizing the overall reason for evil is because we are more valuable to God when we have a moral free will?

Respectfully, I believe you are misunderstanding "what" evil is. Respectfully, please follow along:

You will never understand light until you have experienced darkness. For darkness is automatic IF there be no light. Thus God did not have to create darkness. It is the absence of light.

You will never understand heat until you have experienced cold. For cold is automatically −459.67° ("absolute zero"); if there be NO heat. Thus God did not have to create cold. It is the absence of heat.

You will never understand wellness until you have experienced pain. For pain is automatic if there is no wellness. Thus God did not have to create pain. It is the absence of wellness.

Last but in no way is it the least:

You will NEVER understand righteousness (goodness) until you have experienced evil. For evil is automatic if there is no goodness: (BECAUSE God gave* ALL humans "free will"). Thus God did NOT have to create evil. Evil is the absence of goodness.

In a word. IF we are not guided, lead and directed by Jesus (God Almighty manifest** IN the flesh-1 Timothy 3:16); we are automatically lead, guided and directed by satan; and thus we are evil.

In ANY case, May Jesus richly bless you always. And:

"MERRY CHRISTMAS"

Note: To HELL with "Happy Holidays", "Happy Kwanzaas" and "Happy Hanukkahs". Celebrate these "holidays", if that "tickles your timbers". But LEAVE Christian's most sacred and "Holy-Days" alone! AKA: "CHRISTMAS" and "EASTER"!

* Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

(Note: The term "good and evil" in this verse, suggests that God created evil. That is an immature understanding of the four "axioms" listed above. This VERY COMMON misunderstanding of scripture is WHY there are SOOOOOOOOOOOO many different denominations and doctrines all over the world. Praying for wisdom and understanding is the answer to this satan-led, saga.)

** 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was "manifest in the flesh", justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with(in) God, and the Word was God. John 1:14 And the "Word was made flesh", and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory; the glory as of the only begotten of the Father; full of grace and truth.

 

[geiroffenberg]

What's the alternative?

haha, you're joking...the new testament is about the way of the spirit, the human mind can not even receive thr things of God, not even the highly gifted church of corintians - paul said to them he could not speak to them as unto spiritual becuase they were all still carnal. But the spiritual knows all things, so theres a way as a person repents and becomes spiritual, and its called knowing or revelation

 

[Theo Book]

Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

1. God created free agents
2. Free agents have the potential to do evil, e
3. Potential has a non-zero probability, p, where 0<p<1
4. Therefore, over infinite time, the probability of a free agent to perform evil approaches 1 [Let t represent time, then P(e)=1-(p')^t, ∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞]
5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil
6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless
7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil
8. Therefore God created evil

If this is true, is "the end justifies the means" the only response available? In other words, was the value of free agents to God greater than the evil they would create? In times of suffering, is there comfort found in recognizing the overall reason for evil is because we are more valuable to God when we have a moral free will?

I have a better argument than that logic -

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness:I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[devin553344]

Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

8. Therefore God created evil

God created free agents is correct, but God did not create evil. The son of perdition (the devil) as it's been explained by me is his own God and desires worship as God instead of the Living God. So to say God created another God other than himself to worship is an incorrect statement.

So all things that are not God are death for he is the life, the resurrection of the dead. Therefore the son of perdition leads away from the Living God and away from the resurrection from death.

The son of perdition turned from God and turns others away from God. God requires us to turn towards God to be saved. To accept Jesus the Christ as the savior and redemption of Man.

Did I state that correct? I think it is correct. So God created life and heaven away from death and hell. But there is no reasoning to sat he created death and hell. Just the opposite.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Creation needs a balance of good and evil..without the balance,existence would become stagnant..without purpose.

Not so! God said when He created the earth that everything was "good." There was no evil at that time to get in the way of good.

If Adam and Eve had not sinned, and no evil was in the world, then we would be in a better place, Paradise, and there would be no sorrow, no suffering, no sin. Rather, as we allowed ourselves to become more like Christ (He was there from eternity, remember, and He always planned to become man without giving up His divinity in any way); therefore, as we would always be getting closer and closer to Him, and becoming more and more like perfection itself, there would be many ways that we would have been able to have grown beyond this mortal, human vessel.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Do you believe "the end justifies the means"?

NO! The end does not justify the means. For instance, if the people around the world are starving, there are two ways to handle the problem. Grow more food, give people some land and the tools they need to farm; OR kill all of the people who are starving, kill their offspring, and continue to kill, abort, and generally keep a negative population growth going for hundreds of years. When the earth has reached a new balance, stop killing people, but sterilize all the men in the world.

I would rather teach people to farm. Lebensraum was tried by Hitler, remember? His 1,000 year Reich only lasted 12 years.

 

[thesunisout]

I am of the opinion that our brains are important. Are you encouraging me to stop using it? I must say, the attitude you appear to display is what I believe drives people out of Christianity, not asking difficult questions. I don't believe God is afraid of difficult questions, I don't find Him like that, He's not insecure.

I am encouraging you to build a relationship with Jesus Christ so that you can receive His wisdom and understanding. Your brain is incapable of understanding God without personal revelation directly from Him. It is the arrogance of man to think that their brains are important when they can't figure anything out without Gods help. That would be like a child being shown how to tie their shoes and then boasting to everyone that they figured out how to do it themselves. That is why faith is necessary to have a relationship with God, because it is not about what you know, it is about pleasing God who then may be pleased to give you revelation of what you desire to know. He is not pleased when you come to Him in any way except through faith:

Hebrews 11:6

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him

You are directly questioning the character and motivations of the Most High God, trying to prove He is the author of sin. God isn't insecure, but He does hate sin, and when you abandon your faith and the bible and start inventing your own God, that is called idolatry.

 

[Monk Brendan]

But how is this a reason for disregarding free will? Jesus taught there would be rewards in heaven. One could boast about these could they not? For example "Look what God made for me! It's way better than what He made for you! God loves me more! I must be better than you!"

First of all, boasting is a sin, as such would never happen in heaven. Jesus will give everyone everything they need to continue "Theosis." (becoming closer and closer to God, becoming more like God every day.)

If there is work in heaven, I will be happy if I am allowed to polish the streets of gold, and my crown (such as it is) would be a plain, simple band of gold 2.5mm thick, around my brow.

 

[Mediaeval]

Right, so is it the morally sufficent reason that justifies the indirect cause of evil?

Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as indirect causation of evil. A free moral act is a new thing in the universe, not the mechanical outcome of a series of antecedents.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Where does it say God created free agents? That is presumptive theology and a doctrinal statement that is an observation. If you want sound doctrine base it not on observations but Truth. This is the preeminent Truth God has accounted for all things with His Son Jesus. The response in our hearts is thanksgiving through our repentance, and our actions become forgiveness for one another any more than this leads to opinionated idalatry, and the arrogance and pride through the curse of the knowledge of good and evil. Speculation is deceptive because of pride. Our enemy is the fallen one Satan who himself exists in deception bound by his pride....

I suppose the proof could look like this:

1. God can create a free agent
2. A free agent has the potential to do evil, e
etc.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

The bible states that Jesus was "slain from the foundation of the world" [Revelation 13:8]. So God knew what would happen.

Could it be, however, that God had a plan if humankind sinned? I am reticent to pin my worldview on relatively vague prophetic language. The world here could refer to the world that began when Jesus was slain; the new world of the New Covenant. After all the context of Revelation 13 in my opinion is regarding the destruction of the temple and Nero.

 

[DingDing]

Could it be, however, that God had a plan if humankind sinned? I am reticent to pin my worldview on relatively vague prophetic language. The world here could refer to the world that began when Jesus was slain; the new world of the New Covenant. After all the context of Revelation 13 in my opinion is regarding the destruction of the temple and Nero.

To think that God would not have anticipated the fall is beyond question. How could One be 'infinite' and yet not foreknow an event of such magnitude? (And I do not share your view of Rev. 13.)

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Does light create the darkness? Or is darkness just the absence of light? God is the only source of light and life in the universe. Scripture tells us that those who are spiritually dead refuse to come into the light because their deeds are evil. God made the only way for us to become righteous, through His Son. I am not a Calvinist--therefore, I believe that we can refuse to come to Him and let Him heal us with His heavenly light. I disagree with your statement, "it is impossible for free agents to remain sinless". What of the holy angels? It is clear that the angels are free agents (otherwise, why did Satan and his angels fall?)

Agree If Premise #4 is false, then we need to look at the following points.

p.s. Happy Birthday!

 

[YouAreAwesome]

To think that God would not have anticipated the fall is beyond question. How could One be 'infinite' and yet not foreknow an event of such magnitude? (And I do not share your view of Rev. 13.)

Anticipate: regard as probable

I agree God anticipated the event, but I do not agree He was 100% sure it would happen. Because it was a possibility, He had the back-up plan of Jesus being slain. If He was 100% sure a free-agent would commit evil, then we are back to square one. If God created a free-agent Whom He knew would do evil, He is directly causing the evil, or else, the agent isn't free. Cause-->effect. God-->evil. The in between doesn't matter because if He is the cause and knew the effect before He caused it then He is culpable. Future knowledge affects our present decisions and we are held accountable for them.

Open Theism solves these problems in my opinion. And I remain optimistic it is correct.

 

[DingDing]

Anticipate: regard as probable

I agree God anticipated the event, but I do not agree He was 100% sure it would happen. Because it was a possibility, He had the back-up plan of Jesus being slain. If He was 100% sure a free-agent would commit evil, then we are back to square one. If God created a free-agent Whom He knew would do evil, He is directly causing the evil, or else, the agent isn't free. Cause-->effect. God-->evil. The in between doesn't matter because if He is the cause and knew the effect before He caused it then He is culpable. Future knowledge affects our present decisions and we are held accountable for them.

Open Theism solves these problems in my opinion. And I remain optimistic it is correct.

I wouldn't call Jesus the back-up plan. This was God's plan right from the beginning. Here is the way I put things together. Only God is perfect, so any beings He creates, though He calls His creation 'good', is 'good' but not 'perfect'. Not being 'perfect' means we will at some point misuse the 'good' gift of free-will He gave us. But He had to give us this 'good' gift in order to have the type of relationship He desired. And knowing that we were not perfect, He knew we would need to be reconciled after we misused the powerful gift. So the reconciliation plan was a part of His initial creation plan. Again, God's plan was not a one-time test. God foreknew the initial fall and had the 'fix' as a part of His overall plan. So, as I see it, God knew that for Him to have the relationship He wanted with created beings, that things were going to be hard in some sense on both parties. He was going to have to strive for the relationship, and they were going to have to strive for the relationship. Both parties are involved. Jesus, is the epitome of the struggle, for He is both man and God, and as such, He is the mediator between God and man. He truly represents both parties in one body. His victory over death is not only His victory, but both God's and man's, at least for those men who join themselves to Him. So, God's plan, which was His initial plan, has worked as designed.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.



Yes, God created evil.

The word "evil" there is ra in hebrew, mean ing to bring calamity, distress etc. It does not mean to bring sin or evil in the sense of someone doing moral lawlessness s or unrighteousness. Just as God makes peace in a time of war he can bring judgement distress and calamity and bring men from their false peace.

God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempted he any man.

Satan is the father of lies as Jesus said, and when he speaks a lie he speaks of his own. God cannot lie as scripture teaches