Proof God created evil

[YouAreAwesome]

This is actually an an easy one. God created ed ALL things. He said it Himself in Scripture,"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7. He goes on to say that He "created the waster to destroy" in Isaiah 54:16.

When the New Testament (1John 1:5) shares..."that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all," this scripture gets lost in translation from Greek. When you read the actual Greek, it goes more like, "In the man there was no darkness. In the thing, there was darkness and they did not understand." Because God created all things, including light and dark (evil), the only way to experience the true light of God is through Jesus Christ, the Light of the World, in whom (Jesus as God) there is no darkness.

Everyone He created has purpose, including darkness. We just don't understand how to overcome it and remove it from our lives. It is part of the process of walking in our full salvation. Great question!

So why do you believe He created the evil? Was it because the "end justifies the means"? Also, aren't there some strange consequences of believing this: e.g. Should we copy God and cause evil for the sake of some ultimate good?

 

[Joseph Smoe]

At first it might seem that if God created all things, then evil must have been created by God. However, evil is not a “thing” like a rock or electricity. You cannot have a jar of evil. Evil has no existence of its own; it is really the absence of good. For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole, but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all He created was good. One of the good things God made was creatures who had the freedom to choose good. In order to have a real choice, God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose. So, God allowed these free angels and humans to choose good or reject good (evil). When a bad relationship exists between two good things we call that evil, but it does not become a “thing” that required God to create it.

Perhaps a further illustration will help. If a person is asked, “Does cold exist?” the answer would likely be “yes.” However, this is incorrect. Cold does not exist. Cold is the absence of heat. Similarly, darkness does not exist; it is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good.

God did not create evil, but He does allow evil. If God had not allowed for the possibility of evil, both mankind and angels would be serving God out of obligation, not choice. He did not want “robots” that simply did what He wanted them to do because of their “programming.” God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will and choose whether or not we wanted to serve Him.

As finite human beings, we can never fully understand an infinite God (Romans 11:33-34). Sometimes we think we understand why God is doing something, only to find out later that it was for a different purpose than we originally thought. God looks at things from a holy, eternal perspective. We look at things from a sinful, earthly, and temporal perspective. Why did God put man on earth knowing that Adam and Eve would sin and therefore bring evil, death, and suffering on all mankind? Why didn’t He just create us all and leave us in heaven where we would be perfect and without suffering? These questions cannot be adequately answered this side of eternity. What we can know is whatever God does is holy and perfect and ultimately will glorify Him. God allowed for the possibility of evil in order to give us a true choice in regards to whether we worship Him. God did not create evil, but He allowed it. If He had not allowed evil, we would be worshipping Him out of obligation, not by a choice of our own will.

Did God create evil?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

I find this amusing. many like to blame others for the wrong that they do, or get caught at doing. Blame God for your sin(s). yep - sounds like some more of that type of thinking.

This thread is not intended to be about casting blame for specific evils, but about evil existing at all.

 

[Jonathan Mathews]

Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

I

Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

1. God created free agents
2. Free agents have the potential to do evil, e
3. Potential has a non-zero probability, p, where 0<p<1
4. Therefore, over infinite time, the probability of a free agent to perform evil approaches 1 [Let t represent time, then P(e)=1-(p)^t, ∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞]
5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil
6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless
7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil
8. Therefore God created evil

If this is true, is "the end justifies the means" the only response available? In other words, was the value of free agents to God greater than the evil they would create? In times of suffering, is there comfort found in recognizing the overall reason for evil is because we are more valuable to God when we have a moral free will?

Good question. And I like your mathematical approach.

 

[dandan27]

I think it is helpful to consider other religions like HInduism where there are many gods, god of destruction and god of creation and they all fall under the one supreme God. I suppose monotheism has packed all this into one God and Christianity calls God - love or spirit.

Isaiah 45:7 King James version answers the question for me.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

The problem comes with the misunderstanding of what evil is. Evil is simply the absence of righteousness. It isn't an entity of itself. It is what happens when you aren't completely good. Suggesting that God therefore 'created' evil is a false problem. Good already existed, and evil is simply the absence of good. If an entity has the potential for good then they also have the potential for evil. Short of GOD creating perfect clones of Himself He couldn't create any entity that could do good without the potential for them to also do evil.

We, like the angels, were given the choice and capability of doing good. This is not the creation of evil just as creating light doesn't also create darkness, but rather evil is just what happens when there is a lack of goodness. Nothing can have the 'potential' to do good without also having the 'potential' to not do good, ie: evil. God on the other hand simply is good. He has no potential in that regard.

Evil is not created, it is simply a consequence of the existence of both potential good and the free will to choose good or not. A man does not create murder when he crafts a firearm, and he isn't responsible for the improper use of that firearm. Just as God is not responsible for the improper use of the potential good He has given man.

Ok, so which premise of the argument fails?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This thread is not intended to be about casting blame for evil, but about evil existing at all.

Evil exists so that true love can exist. True love is when two parties agree of their own free will to love each other. For whenever you force somebody to love you out of some kind programming it is not true love.

As for God being righteous despite having the power to stop all sin at this very second: Well, the Bible says God is long suffering towards us and He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. See, when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in is when Jesus will return and set things right. Meaning when the last Gentile repents, Jesus is will come back to judge this world of it's evil.


...

 

[YouAreAwesome]

For if a god were to directly create evil beings with no other choice otherwise but to do evil from out of the starting gate, then that would be wrong.

But according to the logic in the OP, He did directly create beings with no other choice but to do evil at some point in time. So which premise is false?

or will we demand that we understand before we believe

What if we believe, and now we want to understand?

As long as both God and Billy’s parents had morally sufficient reasons to let Billy go to school, in spite of their knowing Billy’s propensity to pull hair, their own actions are blameless.

Right, so is it the morally sufficent reason that justifies the indirect cause of evil?

But most glaring is #6 posits that it is impossible to remain sinless. The entire premise of Christianity is that Jesus had free will and yet REMAINED SINLESS. Therefore, from the Christian point of view, this means I could have remained sinless, but have chosen not.

Do you agree that God created free agents knowing they would do evil?

 

[PanDeVida]

Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

1. God created free agents
2. Free agents have the potential to do evil, e
3. Potential has a non-zero probability, p, where 0<p<1
4. Therefore, over infinite time, the probability of a free agent to perform evil approaches 1 [Let t represent time, then P(e)=1-(p)^t, ∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞]
5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil
6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless
7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil
8. Therefore God created evil

If this is true, is "the end justifies the means" the only response available? In other words, was the value of free agents to God greater than the evil they would create? In times of suffering, is there comfort found in recognizing the overall reason for evil is because we are more valuable to God when we have a moral free will?

NO! God did not create "Free Agents" Like 007 with a license to Kill / which you say are responsible for evil.

Do not mistake Free Agents with Free Will.

Definition of Agent: One a PERSON that acts or exerts power.

Definition of Will: The Will, generally, is that faculty of the MIND aka HEART which selects, at the moment of decision, the strongest desire from among the various desires present.

Matthew 15: 17Do you not understand, that whatsoever entereth into the mouth, goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the privy? (FreeWill) 18But the things which proceed out of the mouth, come forth from the heart, and those things defile a man. (aka Free Will) 19For from the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false testimonies, blasphemies. 20These are the things that defile a man. But to eat with unwashed hands doth not defile a man.

God created every Spiritual Beings aka Angels and human being you and I and everyone else with Free Will, to choose Him or not, God did not create Human Robots, Nor is God a dictator.

It is WE who are created, create 100% of evil, 100% of the time, God does not have any of His fingerprints in any matter of sin.

God Himself States by His servant, that he planted only the good seeds. Also, God states an Enemy planted the bad seed.

Matthew 13: 24-30
24Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28“ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29“ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ 

NOTE: God did not say I planted the Bad Seeds!!! Therefore, your #7 & #8 above, stating, God is 100% responsible for evil. AND 8. Therefore God created evil, IS ABSOLUTELY 100% WRONG!!!

 

[Jonathan Mathews]

Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

1. God created free agents
2. Free agents have the potential to do evil, e
3. Potential has a non-zero probability, p, where 0<p<1
4. Therefore, over infinite time, the probability of a free agent to perform evil approaches 1 [Let t represent time, then P(e)=1-(p)^t, ∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞]
5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil
6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless
7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil
8. Therefore God created evil

If this is true, is "the end justifies the means" the only response available? In other words, was the value of free agents to God greater than the evil they would create? In times of suffering, is there comfort found in recognizing the overall reason for evil is because we are more valuable to God when we have a moral free will?

What would you say if I told you God let's Satan live to destroy the workers of iniquity who refuse to obey Him?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

I think we already have a problem here. God created agents, but they aren't free. [The Word of] God Himself said that we are either slaves to righteousness, or slaves to lawlessness.

The misconception is created, imperfect beings have 100% free will. This is not true; no created, imperfect being has 100% free will. Imperfect beings have the latitude to choose how to react to temptations and sin, but the trajectory of their life is NOT their own. You do NOT make your own destiny.

This is a fail-safe for all of us. If imperfect beings were able to operate to their hearts desire, they would obliterate themselves. Our will is dampened now, and we are still on the road to obliterating each other.

The only entities that have 100% free will are perfect entities - Christ, angels, etc. But, as part of their submission to the Most High, they choose to use their free will to follow God's will 100% of the time.

Huh? On the one hand you say "the only entities that have 100% free will are perfect entities - Christ, angels etc" and on the other hand you say "God created agents, but they aren't free". So you argue that either angels were not created or they were created perfect while humans were created perfect. However Lucifer was an imperfect angel. So your argument fails.

But the real question is: do you believe there are NO CREATED FREE AGENTS?

 

[zoidar]

If you know God, who he is, that he is love, he is 100% good and pure, how can you then believe that he could create something that is evil? To me it's just as impossible as for the sun to bring the night. I'm surprised that some Christians believe in such a thing.

 

[DRobert]

Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

1. God created free agents
2. Free agents have the potential to do evil, e
3. Potential has a non-zero probability, p, where 0<p<1
4. Therefore, over infinite time, the probability of a free agent to perform evil approaches 1 [Let t represent time, then P(e)=1-(p)^t, ∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞]
5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil
6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless
7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil
8. Therefore God created evil

If this is true, is "the end justifies the means" the only response available? In other words, was the value of free agents to God greater than the evil they would create? In times of suffering, is there comfort found in recognizing the overall reason for evil is because we are more valuable to God when we have a moral free will?

Hello OP. Hello everyone.
Before I enter this discussion and engage you OP, we should come to an understanding:

Could you define "free agent" in your own words for us? We need to know how you define the term "free agent".

How do you define "potential"?

 

[jimbohank]

Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

1. God created free agents
2. Free agents have the potential to do evil, e
3. Potential has a non-zero probability, p, where 0<p<1
4. Therefore, over infinite time, the probability of a free agent to perform evil approaches 1 [Let t represent time, then P(e)=1-(p)^t, ∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞]
5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil
6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless
7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil
8. Therefore God created evil

If this is true, is "the end justifies the means" the only response available? In other words, was the value of free agents to God greater than the evil they would create? In times of suffering, is there comfort found in recognizing the overall reason for evil is because we are more valuable to God when we have a moral free will?

Yes he did, but I don't understand your angle with the post. It almost sounds like you want to "blame" all evil on God.

He created evil but by creating perfect love first. Did he really have a choice? Did He remove His own choice by giving us choice instead? That sounds like perfect love to me, just like He gave His earthy existence through Jesus Christ as a sacrifice in place of our sin so He can have an intimate relationship with us, His creation, the ones created in His image whom He loves eternally. Sounds like a perfect scenario to me.

God's perfect creation must obey Him to remain perfect since He is perfect. Anything less would separate His creation from Him. He loves us so much that not only did He create us but He gave us a choice to love Him back instead of "making" us love Him. There was only one tree in the garden. Adam and Eve could have eaten of "any" tree in the garden yet God commanded them not to eat from the "one" tree. He even explained what would happen if they did, that they would be separated from Him where at that point they were walking "with" Him. The loss of blessing was immense when they chose to disobey Him.

Let me ask this question, before Yeshua, when a priest died from being in the presence of God due to being unclean, was it because God hated that priest? Or was it because darkness cannot be in the presence of perfect light, that the guidelines for a priest to become clean before entering God's presence was for the priest's benefit, not His, since God's perfection would destroy any evil on that priest?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

I am assuming you mean P(e)=1 - exp(-ct)∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞, and c is a constsnt.

Generally yes. But, we have the problem of "infinite time," which is physically fussy.

We would also need more "functions" to take care of things like repentence, sin nature etc.

P(e)=1 - exp(-ct) + A*exp(kt) - B*exp(-qt) + ...

Where B*exp(-qt) represents repentence type evolution over time, and A*exp(kt) represents sin nature. We note that P must be less than or equal to zero. And, A, B, k, and q are real constants (for now.)

No, I do not mean any of this extra and unnecessary math that doesn't relate to the purpose of the post. Because I am not including anything about repentance or salvation in this thread. We are discussing the probability of evil tending towards 1 over an infinite time with respect to an omnibenevolent God Who desires meaningful relationship by creating free agents.

 

[John Hyperspace]

I disagree. Twins are given presents by their dad. T1 gets $20, the T2 gets $10. T1 boasts that he is loved more. Zero free will with regard to the reward (except perhaps on the part of the father), yet boasting is still a consequence.

Yet even in your analogy the boasting is baseless since boasting can only really be in one's own abilities; without knowing the reasons for the father's giving, the children can't boast in themselves: perhaps the father gave less to the other child because he has more respect for that child's wisdom in money use, and less in the other child's who would spend frivolousy and needed a little more. I'm not saying, we can't create analogies all day long, but the question arises as to whether or not the analogy is true or false.

But, I'm saying that predetermination leaves no room for boasting. This is why I cited the passage concerning the body and its members, some of which are given more honor than others, yet, all is equal because all members benefit from all supporting members of the body: thus the entire body is rewarded together. In a deterministic understanding you can, and do, have a body where boasting is impossible. With free will, there is always grounds for boasting. Free will is the foundation of boasting.

I don't see it. God is responsible for the outcome because without His salvation no-one would receive it. Believers are responsible for receiving the salvation. Those in hell are responsible for rejecting it.

Right; and so "believers are responsible for being in heaven" and "those in hell are responsible for rejecting it": surely you can see it? If believers are "responsible"then, again, who is responsible for salvation? Free will kicks God out of the picture even though paying a form of "lip service" to His "help"

Also, I don't really think anyone is "rejecting" salvation as you're implying. No one would freely reject salvation. This is like saying a man is in a burning building, and rejects the firemen at the window, freely choosing to burn. Surely you see how nonsensical this is? To reject salvation means they must first know and understand that it is there; the man in the building must know that the firemen and escape route are there, before he can reject it.

But unbelievers simply do not believe the escape route is there. They are like a man in a burning building that is overcome by smoke and does not know and cannot see the firemen or the escape route.

I think this is like asking for a proof of a+b=b+a, it's either true or it isn't.

I don't agree; I believe this is an easy way to demonstrate that everything traces back to, well, God, in conclusion; and never in one's own self or "free will": for example, the old question: why did you "choose" to believe and another person "chose" not to? Follow this line of examination and you will always find God at the beginning of all of your actions and "choices"

 

[YouAreAwesome]

We for our choice, God for knowing we would eventually choose wrongly.

But isn't it like being given a test specially modified in such a way that we are 100% certain to fail and still being held responsible for failing?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

At first it might seem that if God created all things, then evil must have been created by God. However, evil is not a “thing” like a rock or electricity. You cannot have a jar of evil. Evil has no existence of its own; it is really the absence of good. For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole, but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all He created was good. One of the good things God made was creatures who had the freedom to choose good. In order to have a real choice, God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose. So, God allowed these free angels and humans to choose good or reject good (evil). When a bad relationship exists between two good things we call that evil, but it does not become a “thing” that required God to create it.

Perhaps a further illustration will help. If a person is asked, “Does cold exist?” the answer would likely be “yes.” However, this is incorrect. Cold does not exist. Cold is the absence of heat. Similarly, darkness does not exist; it is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good.

God did not create evil, but He does allow evil. If God had not allowed for the possibility of evil, both mankind and angels would be serving God out of obligation, not choice. He did not want “robots” that simply did what He wanted them to do because of their “programming.” God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will and choose whether or not we wanted to serve Him.

As finite human beings, we can never fully understand an infinite God (Romans 11:33-34). Sometimes we think we understand why God is doing something, only to find out later that it was for a different purpose than we originally thought. God looks at things from a holy, eternal perspective. We look at things from a sinful, earthly, and temporal perspective. Why did God put man on earth knowing that Adam and Eve would sin and therefore bring evil, death, and suffering on all mankind? Why didn’t He just create us all and leave us in heaven where we would be perfect and without suffering? These questions cannot be adequately answered this side of eternity. What we can know is whatever God does is holy and perfect and ultimately will glorify Him. God allowed for the possibility of evil in order to give us a true choice in regards to whether we worship Him. God did not create evil, but He allowed it. If He had not allowed evil, we would be worshipping Him out of obligation, not by a choice of our own will.

Did God create evil?

So which premise is false?

 

[SouthwestSeeker]

I believe the problem lies in trying to apply formal logic, created by fallen and imperfect humans, to a God that is infinite in knowledge and unimaginable in power. To attempt to apply our feeble ways of making sense of the world to God is kind of silly and borderline heretical. Adam and Eve created evil by their disobedience. Why God created us anyway, knowing that it would happen, is His first demonstration of his love for us.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But according to the logic in the OP, He did directly create beings with no other choice but to do evil at some point in time. So which premise is false?

The OP is false. The being that God knew who would do evil in the future will be judged because they could have done good. The OP ignores this. For it doesn't make sense to judge a being if evil was it's only choice or destiny. God allows evil to exist to allow more space or time for men to repent and or for His people to be refined by fire so as to draw them closer to Him. God is long suffering torward us and is patient over man's evil.

That is how God is righteous in not stopping evil in every given situation.

The answer is repentance and or to draw men closer to Him.



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