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Problems with arguing against predestination

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by HenryM, Jun 22, 2017.

  1. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    What plan? Where do you see a plan where God chooses who is and isn't saved? It's not there. It's an idea that is brought to the text in which passages of Scripture are taken out of context it an effort to find support.

    I didn't address it because it's not there. It was the king who was judged. He was judged for his haughty attitude not for what God had him do.

    What is the context of the passages? We can make almost any claimed belief and find some passage of Scripture taken out context that would appear to support the claim. However, when we look at the context of the passage we find out that it's actually talking about something different.

    You're drawing inferences from passages rather than showing where Scripture teaches these ideas that you've laid out in your explanation.

    Please show where the Bible teaches that God chooses to save certain individuals and not others and who those individuals are.

    Please show where the Scriptures teach that God controls every single thing that happens.

    There's a huge difference between inferring something from Scripture and saying the Scriptures teach something.

    If your understanding of Predestination is correct how come we don't see it taught in the Church until the Reformation? Shouldn't we find this idea taught by those who were taught by the apostles? Even when Augustine dealt with these ideas they were rejected by the Church. It wasn't until the Reformers broke away from the Church that these ideas were popularized
     
  2. HenryM

    HenryM Well-Known Member

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    It's not serious to argue predetermination with someone who doesn't even know the quotes that explicitly state it. And those explicit quotes (which you say you are not aware of) are just the beginning of revelations which are throughout the whole Bible about God working His plan.

    I won't provide you with quotes, because you have more than 6000 posts on your profile. If you don't know by now, go and research. If you don't know how, contact me privately.

    As a sidenote, all four quotes I provided in my previous reply were from Psalms and Proverbs, the most context-free books in the Bible. Proverbs even start with: "The proverbs of Solomon son of David, king of Israel: for gaining wisdom and instruction; for understanding words of insight; for receiving instruction in prudent behavior, doing what is right and just and fair". Yet you didn't address the quotes, nor did you explain your "context", but you shrugged them off based on some imaginary "false context".
     
  3. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Well, this is the typical response I get from those who hold the Reformed position. You've made no case, you simply stated your belief. You pulled a few passages of Scripture, you didn't provide any context and you didn't even explain how you understood them to support your position. When I asked how the passage pertained to you example you wouldn't even address that.

    You not answered any questions I've posed. I've shown where your position opposed 1500 years of church history and you've which you didn't address.

    I didn't shrug off your passages, I simple asked you what the context was. Did give the context? No. Instead you started crying about me shrugging off your passages. So far, other than saying what you believe all you've given is the what you think I'm not doing. Great argument you've got there.

    You claimed that God chose who would and wouldn't be saved. A little evidence to support you claim would be great.
     
  4. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    Nonsense.

    Jesus Himself "popularized" these ideas while teaching on this earth.
    You've had many scriptures cited as evidence. You simply won't accept them.
     
  5. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    No he didn't. That's just the way you read His words taken out of context. The Church rejected these ideas until the Reformation. The early church even called this idea of people chosen in such a way that they can't be lost, heresy.

    Now here's the nonsense. There hasn't been any Scripture, in context, to support this idea that God chooses which individuals will be saved.
     
  6. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    Again - there is. You just don't accept it.
     
  7. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Are we going to go through this again Marvin? And again, you didn't post one. I realize why, it's because there is none.
     
  8. roman2819

    roman2819 Understanding Prayer, Faith & God's Will' Supporter

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    Regarding predestination: Many Christians have been so awed by the word predestination that we forgot about context. Predestination means pre-planned. In biblical context, it means that God has pre-planned to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Paul or Peter were NOT talking about predestination of individuals.

    For 2000 years before the apostles' times, Yahweh was God to the Jews only, while other pagan nations worship many pluralistic gods. Even after Jesus' resurrection, the apostles initially thought that redemption was intended for Jews only. After Peter received a vision about eating unclean food, they realized God was inviting the Gentiles too. Now, this was shocking to the Jews because it went against their tradition which was so rooted in the God of Abraham and Jacob, where Gentiles had no part in. As the old order changed, the Jews were upset, and they demanded that Gentiles followed Jewish customs (many Christian Jews still practiced circumcision and Sabbath at that time). Amid this hostility, even Peter distanced himself from the Gentiles, and Paul opposed him. To assure the Gentiles, Paul explained in Ephesians (and Letter of Romans) that God had always predestined (pre-planned) to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Let me explain the following verses while quoting them:

    Ephesians 1:12, 13
    [12]"In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. ===> "we, who were the first to hope in Christ" refers to the Jews who were the first to believe in the God of Abraham, Jacob and Moses.
    Speaking as a Jew, Paul used the pronoun "we" [v 12], and as he referred to Gentiles, he said "you" [v 13] -->
    [13] And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation ==> The Gentiles, who were previously outside the faith, and even despised by Jews, are now included.

    When seen in context, the Bible was not talking about predestination of individuals. Instead, predestination means God has always planned (or pre-planned or predestined or destined) to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Different translations use different words but when we know context, we will not drill into the words technically.

    About the words "chosen people" or "Chosen by God": Today, we tend to interpret these terms factually, thinking that God choose Jason or Susan. However, during biblical times [2000 or more years ago], when people were much more submissive to God, they don't say that they chose to follow God; instead they said that God chose them. It is a humble way of speaking. To say that they chose God would have sounded arrogant or inappropriate to them. Today we don't speak that way anymore, and to us, such words sound like God literally choose who to save. But back then, it was really a humble way to say that it was a privilege to be part of God's people or kingdom.
     
  9. roman2819

    roman2819 Understanding Prayer, Faith & God's Will' Supporter

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    Regarding predestination: Many Christians have been so awed by the word predestination that we forgot about context. Predestination means pre-planned. In biblical context, it means that God has pre-planned to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Paul or Peter were NOT talking about predestination of individuals.

    For 2000 years before the apostles' times, Yahweh was God to the Jews only, while other pagan nations worship many pluralistic gods. Even after Jesus' resurrection, the apostles initially thought that redemption was intended for Jews only. After Peter received a vision about eating unclean food, they realized God was inviting the Gentiles too. Now, this was shocking to the Jews because it went against their tradition which was so rooted in the God of Abraham and Jacob, where Gentiles had no part in. As the old order changed, the Jews were upset, and they demanded that Gentiles followed Jewish customs (many Christian Jews still practiced circumcision and Sabbath at that time). Amid this hostility, even Peter distanced himself from the Gentiles, and Paul opposed him. To assure the Gentiles, Paul explained in Ephesians (and Letter of Romans) that God had always predestined (pre-planned) to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Let me explain the following verses while quoting them:

    Ephesians 1:12, 13
    [12]"In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. ===> "we, who were the first to hope in Christ" refers to the Jews who were the first to believe in the God of Abraham, Jacob and Moses.
    Speaking as a Jew, Paul used the pronoun "we" [v 12], and as he referred to Gentiles, he said "you" [v 13] -->
    [13] And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation ==> The Gentiles, who were previously outside the faith, and even despised by Jews, are now included.

    When seen in context, the Bible was not talking about predestination of individuals. Instead, predestination means God has always planned (or pre-planned or predestined or destined) to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Different translations use different words but when we know context, we will not drill into the words technically.

    About the words "chosen people" or "Chosen by God": Today, we tend to interpret these terms factually, thinking that God choose Jason or Susan. However, during biblical times [2000 or more years ago], when people were much more submissive to God, they don't say that they chose to follow God; instead they said that God chose them. It is a humble way of speaking. To say that they chose God would have sounded arrogant or inappropriate to them. Today we don't speak that way anymore, and to us, such words sound like God literally choose who to save. But back then, it was really a humble way to say that it was a privilege to be part of God's people or kingdom.
     
  10. roman2819

    roman2819 Understanding Prayer, Faith & God's Will' Supporter

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    Regarding "explicit predestination verses" ...

    Many Christians have been so awed by the word predestination that we forgot about context. Predestination means pre-planned. Some verses said destined or chosen, but in biblical context, it means that God has pre-planned to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Paul or Peter were NOT talking about predestination of individuals.

    For 2000 years before the apostles' times, Yahweh was God to the Jews only, while other pagan nations worship many pluralistic gods. Even after Jesus' resurrection, the apostles initially thought that redemption was intended for Jews only. After Peter received a vision about eating unclean food, they realized God was inviting the Gentiles too. Now, this was shocking to the Jews because it went against their tradition which was so rooted in the God of Abraham and Jacob, where Gentiles had no part in. As the old order changed, the Jews were upset, and they demanded that Gentiles followed Jewish customs (many Christian Jews still practiced circumcision and Sabbath at that time). Amid this hostility, even Peter distanced himself from the Gentiles, and Paul opposed him. To assure the Gentiles, Paul explained in Ephesians (and Letter of Romans) that God had always predestined (pre-planned) to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Let me explain the following verses while quoting them:

    Ephesians 1:12, 13
    [12]"In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. ===> "we, who were the first to hope in Christ" refers to the Jews who were the first to believe in the God of Abraham, Jacob and Moses.
    Speaking as a Jew, Paul used the pronoun "we" [v 12], and as he referred to Gentiles, he said "you" [v 13] -->
    [13] And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation ==> The Gentiles, who were previously outside the faith, and even despised by Jews, are now included.

    When seen in context, the Bible was not talking about predestination of individuals. Instead, predestination means God has always planned (or pre-planned or predestined or destined) to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Different translations use different words but when we know context, we will not drill into the words technically.

    About the words "chosen people" or "Chosen by God": Today, we tend to interpret these terms factually, thinking that God choose Jason or Susan. However, during biblical times [2000 or more years ago], when people were much more submissive to God, they don't say that they chose to follow God; instead they said that God chose them. It is a humble way of speaking. To say that they chose God would have sounded arrogant or inappropriate to them. Today we don't speak that way anymore, and to us, such words sound like God literally choose who to save. But back then, it was really a humble way to say that it was a privilege to be part of God's people or kingdom.
     
  11. roman2819

    roman2819 Understanding Prayer, Faith & God's Will' Supporter

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    True, there has been too much misunderstanding about the word "predestination".

    Many Christians have been so awed by the word predestination that we forgot about context. Predestination means pre-planned. Some verses said destined or chosen, but in biblical context, it means that God has pre-planned to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Paul or Peter were NOT talking about predestination of individuals.

    For 2000 years before the apostles' times, Yahweh was God to the Jews only, while other pagan nations worship many pluralistic gods. Even after Jesus' resurrection, the apostles initially thought that redemption was intended for Jews only. After Peter received a vision about eating unclean food, they realized God was inviting the Gentiles too. Now, this was shocking to the Jews because it went against their tradition which was so rooted in the God of Abraham and Jacob, where Gentiles had no part in. As the old order changed, the Jews were upset, and they demanded that Gentiles followed Jewish customs (many Christian Jews still practiced circumcision and Sabbath at that time). Amid this hostility, even Peter distanced himself from the Gentiles, and Paul opposed him. To assure the Gentiles, Paul explained in Ephesians (and Letter of Romans) that God had always predestined (pre-planned) to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Let me explain the following verses while quoting them:

    Ephesians 1:12, 13
    [12]"In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. ===> "we, who were the first to hope in Christ" refers to the Jews who were the first to believe in the God of Abraham, Jacob and Moses.
    Speaking as a Jew, Paul used the pronoun "we" [v 12], and as he referred to Gentiles, he said "you" [v 13] -->
    [13] And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation ==> The Gentiles, who were previously outside the faith, and even despised by Jews, are now included.

    When seen in context, the Bible was not talking about predestination of individuals. Instead, predestination means God has always planned (or pre-planned or predestined or destined) to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Different translations use different words but when we know context, we will not drill into the words technically.

    About the words "chosen people" or "Chosen by God": Today, we tend to interpret these terms factually, thinking that God choose Jason or Susan. However, during biblical times [2000 or more years ago], when people were much more submissive to God, they don't say that they chose to follow God; instead they said that God chose them. It is a humble way of speaking. To say that they chose God would have sounded arrogant or inappropriate to them. Today we don't speak that way anymore, and to us, such words sound like God literally choose who to save. But back then, it was really a humble way to say that it was a privilege to be part of God's people or kingdom.
     
  12. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You might ask Jesus that question
     
  13. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How could the fall have occurred because of lack of faith? Adam and Eve walked with God before the fall?

    Faith is described in the Bible as hope in things hoped for, but Adam and Eve walked with God.
     
  14. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    I said the fall came "through" a lack of faith. Just as Lucifer's fall came through pride and that even though he was pronounced by God as being perfect in all his ways.

    The time of the fall is not the same time as the time before the fall.

    I have no idea why you would make this silly point here about Adam and Eve walking with God before the fall.:scratch: Of course they were.

    I did not say that they had already been alienated from God before the fall. If that were the case, they would have already fallen before the fall. Is that really what you think I was saying or are you simply looking for another argument with me.:scratch:

    Nor, by the way, were they walking with God in the garden exactly when they fell. God came to the garden only some time later to find them in sin. Their relationship with God was obviously not necessarily exactly like ours is.

    "They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden."

    Nor was Lucifer in a fallen state before he fell rebelled through faith. He too was "walking with God" before pride was found in him. Similarly Adam and Ever were walking with God before their faith failed.

    Obviously they were created with the ability to make choices which exhibited a lack of faith.

    We - by the way - have not that particular propensity in our new nature. The one born of God does not sin.

    "Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’” The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

    Satan cast doubt on God's Word and Adam and Eve fell for it and acted accordingly.

    Contrasted with that - we have believed God's Word on the matter of Christ's work and we believe it and act accordingly in spite of what the devil says.

    What you are attempting concerning my comment is a clarification where none is needed. Everyone else here knew what I meant as soon as they read it.

    I suspect that you did too. You just have a history of arguing with me and couldn't resist a shot. At least that is my opinion. I could be wrong. But that is what I have experienced with you since first encountering you here in the forum.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  15. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Adam and Eve had proof God’s exists as they walked with God before the fall.

    The word faith is defined in the Bible as a hope in what’s hoped for. They knew God personally and they did not have faith that an unproven God exists. They knew God existed.

    Now you can try to make this about some personal issue, but the fact is to use the word ‘faith’ in describing Adam and Eve is inaccurate.

    I am only trying to understand your point. Maybe choose your words better to be accurate. That would help. I am only replying to your words.

    If you would rather I don’t respond to you out of fear of my questions I understand.
     
  16. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    No one said that they didn't believe in the existence of God.

    Of course they did. Eve had just been talking to the serpent about what God had said to her.

    I really don't know where you are coming from with this existence of God thing.
    Actually faith has to do with our attitude toward what we hope for and not the hope itself. "....faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

    Adam and Eve lacked the conviction that what God had told them about eating from the tree was true. The supposed inaccuracy of what God told them about eating of the tree was brought into play by the serpent and they doubted the truth of what God had told them.

    This is exactly the kind of temptation Jesus was faced with in the wilderness and overcame it. It is exactly the kind of temptation people presented with the gospel are faced with. Many fail the test and many pass the test.

    Exactly why some pass the test and some fail is a subject for another day.

    But to say that the fall of mankind came through a lack of faith is entirely accurate. No one but you have had a problem with the statement - nor should they.
    My statement is entirely accurate. However - your definition is inaccurate. Perhaps that's the problem here.

    You apparently don't understand what faith is in it's various forms. From your statement about the existence of God - you seem to believe that a lack of belief in the existence of God is the only time a lack of faith is exhibited.

    Honestly - your objection to my simple statement is so uncalled for that I don't get it - other than to say that you seem to be just looking to argue about something. That has been your history with me.
     
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