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Problems with arguing against predestination

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by HenryM, Jun 22, 2017.

  1. HenryM

    HenryM Well-Known Member

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    I come to this sub forum now and then and want to participate, but when I go over the threads and postings, I find argumentation against predestination lacking in a way that I don't even feel compelled to reply back, let alone argue on and on.

    In other words, I don't find argumentation against predestination serious enough. Quite a few times it has a flavour of tamper tantrum, or being emotionaly driven one way or another. Sometimes it's just basic, off the hip, reaction against the idea that God not only has power to control things but that He actually does control things, that it depletes my motivation to answer back.

    Is this the experience of others who believe in predestination? (I stay away to label myself as calvinist because I didn't read what he wrote, and my belief in predestination didn't originate from preaching but from reading the Bible.)

    Anyway, I was thinking about that. I don't know if I am having a prejudice that skews my way of seeing things, or is there really a different quality of understanding God's word and reality between those who see predestination and those who don't see it. Of course, I am talking in general terms, an average of sorts, not about each and every individual who believes for and against predestination.

    Interesting starting difference is that basically no one truly believes in predestination right away. Everybody starts by believing in free will, as I did too. Then, some start seeing what looks like predestined nature of our reality being revealed in the Bible. And then, some start seeing predestination all over the Bible.

    On the other hand, I would say that most who believe in free will start with free will. Some do take predestination as fact early on if they are part of the church that teaches it, but if they just take it on surface they might retreat back to what is intuitive position, a free will position, which I suspect does happen much more often than conversion of someone who has seriously studied and believed in predestination but later moved to free will.

    It seems there's no way around seeing a different level of understanding of positions between the two groups. Basically all who believe in predestination have also truly believed in free will at some point, while basically all or most who believe in free will have never truly believed in predestination. Thus first can talk with more authority about free will than second can talk about predestination.

    I don't know if that's the reason why, or not, but, again, I don't feel challenged to actually participate in an argument for or against predestination, because what I see that other side brings is usually rather lacking.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
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  2. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    If everything is predestined... Why share the gospel?
     
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  3. 66/40

    66/40 Member

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    If predestination is so, why did Jesus even have to die for us in the cross? It would have been an unnecessary act on God's part.
     
  4. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    It's really hard to discount the mention of predestination in Paul's letters to the Romans and the Ephesians...

    Romans 8:29-30: "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

    Ephesians 1:4-6: For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

    Ephesians 1:11-12: "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
     
  5. RC1970

    RC1970 post tenebras lux

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    Not only does "temper tantrum" describe the anti-predestinarians, but it describes the whole of our anti-intellectual and biblically illiterate society as well.
     
  6. Yanni depp

    Yanni depp Est. 1986

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    Personally, i believe in free will, but that God foresaw what our free will would amount to, and the choices we would make before they happened in relation to how we as humans experience our own separate timelines. I dont really see the point in getting frazzled either.
     
  7. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    Jesus' sacrifice was also predestined so that God would forgive all our sins. He could not have adopted us if we were guilty of sin. Everything is worked out according to God's plan.
     
  8. HenryM

    HenryM Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately. Not to put myself above others, I have my share of temper tantrums as well. But what I see in positions against predestination is really uninspiring.
     
  9. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    I don't think that "temper tantrum" is appropriate to use against someone with a different point of view, even if they express it strongly.

    Are you really condemning our society as anti-intellectual? If anything, we have surplus of intellectuals.

    Also, our society is by no means biblically illiterate. For as long as it has existed our society has been intimately familiar with the Bible. Millions and millions of people have read and continue to read the Bible, not to mention the millions and millions who hear Scripture in church and on television.

    If you have any basis for your statements beyond critical personal opinion I'd like to see them.
     
  10. RC1970

    RC1970 post tenebras lux

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    Yes, we all have tendencies toward being lazy thinkers, but we have been called to a higher standard. We seem to be living in a very childish period in history.
     
  11. Winken

    Winken Heimat Supporter

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    God predestines to be saved (eternally secure in His Presence) only those who confess Jesus as Savior, Romans 10:8-13, assured in Romans 8:1.
     
  12. Winken

    Winken Heimat Supporter

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    Thanks for laying out your post so clearly. Well done!
     
  13. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    COOL! As JESUS SAYS: unless you become as little children , you will never enter the Kingdom of God.

    And I have never once in my life, ever, seen (nor heard about) a child who was raised right, raised in the way they should go , according to Scripture in faith trusting in Christ Jesus and the Father in heaven,
    ever, ever, ever even think about predestination,
    let alone try to find out about it , discuss it, or promote it.


    Of course 'childish' doesn't only mean children of God, does it........
     
  14. RC1970

    RC1970 post tenebras lux

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    "Child like" yes, "childish", I think not.
     
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  15. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

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    Hello,

    Predestination is indeed false. The idea of it shreds Jesus's promises/commands He made to us.

    To name a few verses:
    John 3:16 "whosoever believeth"
    Mark 16:15-16 "He that believeth AND baptized"
    Matthew 28:18-20 "teaching all nations"

    These verses state that ALL people will have this gift of unmerited grace so long as they choose to obey the gospel.

    "Oh but God already knows who is and who isn't saved so its already decided for everyone"

    Take me for example: God knows what is in store for me even before I was born. He is Omniscience, Omnipresent, Omnipotent. He knows that just off one choice I make, He knows each and every path off that choice. He knows the end game. He allows us free will and knows each and every choice we will make.

    Another verse to take into consideration 2 Peter 3:9.

    If you do and honest study of the bible, you should come to the understanding that predestination is false.

    No temper tantrum here though, it is your choice to believe what you wish, all one as I can do is show you scripture that refutes the man made idea of predestination.

    If you care to read these articles, here they are:
    Calvinism and the Great Commission
    Does John 6:37 Teach Calvinist "Predestination"?
    Ephesians 1:4 - Predestination
     
  16. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

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    Hello,

    Predestination is indeed false. The idea of it shreds Jesus's promises/commands He made to us.

    To name a few verses:
    John 3:16 "whosoever believeth"
    Mark 16:15-16 "He that believeth AND baptized"
    Matthew 28:18-20 "teaching all nations"

    These verses state that ALL people will have this gift of unmerited grace so long as they choose to obey the gospel.

    "Oh but God already knows who is and who isn't saved so its already decided for everyone"

    Take me for example: God knows what is in store for me even before I was born. He is Omniscience, Omnipresent, Omnipotent. He knows that just off one choice I make, He knows each and every path off that choice. He knows the end game. He allows us free will and knows each and every choice we will make.

    Another verse to take into consideration 2 Peter 3:9.

    If you do and honest study of the bible, you should come to the understanding that predestination is false.

    No temper tantrum here though, it is your choice to believe what you wish, all one as I can do is show you scripture that refutes the man made idea of predestination.

    If you care to read these articles, here they are:
    Calvinism and the Great Commission
    Does John 6:37 Teach Calvinist "Predestination"?
    Ephesians 1:4 - Predestination
     
  17. HenryM

    HenryM Well-Known Member

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    There's an answer to your question, but your question is not even an argument against predestination. We can flip it to free will:

    If there is free will, why did God let such important task of sharing the Gospel, upon which one's salvation or damnation hangs, to fallen human beings?
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
  18. HenryM

    HenryM Well-Known Member

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    Same as above, this is not even an argument against predestination. And to top it off, it's a little bit nonsensical, because predestination doesn't negate puprose of Jesus' crucifixtion. Let's flip your question to free will (with nonsensical nature of the question remaining):

    If we have free will to believe in God, why did Jesus even have to die for us in the cross? It would have been unnecessary act on God's part, because we could use our free will to believe in God.
     
  19. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    And you say this because?
     
  20. HenryM

    HenryM Well-Known Member

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    You are quoting some verses. If you want to get into that, explicit predestination verses far outweight what seem like explicit free will verses, so where do you lead your position with that?

    Maybe more importantly, what's your explanation for why are many issues in the Bible revealed with seeming contradictions?
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
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