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Problems with arguing against predestination

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by HenryM, Jun 22, 2017.

  1. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Huh?
     
  2. HenryM

    HenryM Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I agree.

    And what's also fascinating to me about God's sophisticated creation, is that it's not only what's granted to a believer, but how said believer deals with it.

    I think that if one gets proud about own self for something he got from God, there will be consequences for that. Just as with getting envious about others for something that they have. So it can end up that talent given was a minus for a believer who got it, if he got proud over it, while at the same time it was a blessing for a believer who didn't have it, because he didn't envy others who did have it, but was glad for them. Of course, vice versa too.
     
  3. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

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    Okay then, why are you deflecting the scriptures presented, turning around and saying "your wrong, trust me".

    Why don't you enlighten me, as to why the scriptures I presented, are not as I claim they are?

    I provided evidence, you could at least do the same.
     
  4. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    You just throw off Christ's doctrine, just a few of His words slays your religious philosophy as I already posted. You prefer your own understanding about these things.

    Simply your contrary to the truth.

    1 Timothy 6:3-5New King James Version (NKJV)
    Error and Greed
    3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglingsof men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2017
  5. HenryM

    HenryM Well-Known Member

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    Great points.

    We have three distinct witnesses that God's creation is initially dark.

    1) When God created heavens and earth, it was dark and void. Only then God said "Let there be light", and He divided the light from the darkness.

    2) When God created Adam, He first created the man from dust of the ground (darkness), and then breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (light). It was not other way around.

    3) In Gospel of John, he writes that in Word (Jesus) "was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it/does not have grasp of it/can't comprehend it."

    Why is God's creation initially dark?

    Because, I'd say, nothing is light and love except God, and even God's creation doesn't have light and love in them until God puts His light and love in the creation.

    So then, what is free will? What can human freely choose if God is the one who puts love for truth into the human? It's God's doing. God puts love and light into the human so human can see God. And once human has love for truth, has light and sees light, "darkness can't overcome it" (John 1:5).
     
  6. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    So I've been following this whole discussion with some degree of amusement and annoyance. The Bible clearly teaches predestination. It's obvious, plain, and simple.

    Thinking of a real life example... Suppose that I am throwing a party and I send out invitations to many people requesting an RSVP. I know in advance that even though many people have been notified, not everyone will respond. If I know the people well enough I will know who will respond "yes", who will respond "no", and who won't respond.

    God has created a gospel that has been, is, and will be heard. He knows in advance who will respond positively; he has predestined who they are. He has chosen them in advance to be a part of his family.

    Any argument to the contrary is manufactured, legalistic foolishness.
     
  7. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

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    Huh? Where did you post scripture that refutes what scripture I placed. The fact that I can produce scripture period, shows predestination false. You have placed out of context the scripture.

    You seem to cherry pick verses that mention anything to do with the word predestine in it, not looking at the context of the entire chapter and book or who its even directed at.

    I have already posted a response to your Romans 8:29-30 which you seem to not be able to explain or refute. That tells me a lot.

    No, I gave you scripture you cant seem to fathom. Look, this one scripture is quite simple:

    1 Timothy 2:3-6

    How do you even try to get around this? It is really quite perplexing.
    1 John 2:2
    John 3:17

    Really, how do you even try to get around it I would have never known except that scripture tells me why, 2 Timothy 4:3-4

    Ah, so you can put down verses. Why can't you do the same for our debate? Well I suppose you did put one down (Romans 8:29-30), however I gave you more sound scripture and you got stuck, so you blew it off and said "trust me your wrong" and gave me a verse about people being in error but not pertaining to our debate. Why do you even try to start a conversation with me then? You posted to ME, not I to you. Least you could do is have the decency to say that this is beyond your ability to discuss any further if you dont wish to give up the false doctrine of predestination.

    If you wish to bring actual evidence to the table instead of your opinions, I would be happy to continue, other wise maybe we should just stop here. I would then shake your hand and bid you a kind farewell.

    Thank you for your time thus far.
     
  8. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    Here is the Bible's argument against "PRE-DETERMINISM":...>"FREE WILL"

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...the-all-everything-attributes-of-god.8011130/

    The true doctrine of "FREE WILL"??: Biblical examples??

    Gods Grace vs Free Will

    "Free Will" ...or... "Pre-{destination}"?

    God has given Man the spiritual gift of "free will" spiritual CHOICE from A&E in Eden until now...
    obey or disobey...
    accept or reject Me and My will...
    choose life...etc

    God spiritually calls/draws/knocks to ALL.
    EACH Man's spirit must accept or reject.


    Deuteronomy 30:19
    I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that
    I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse.
    So CHOOSE LIFE in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

    1 Chronicles 28:9...KING David to wise son Solomon
    “As for you, my son Solomon,
    know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts.
    If you seek Him, He will let you find Him;
    BUT if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

    John 3:36...John the Baptizer on Jesus: CHOOSE
    1. He who believes in the Son has eternal life; (BELIEVER)
    but
    2.he who does not obey (TO BELIEVE IN!) the Son will not see life,
    but the wrath of God abides on him.” (UN-BELIEVER)

    John 1
    11 He came to that which was His own, but His own did NOT receive Him.
    12 Yet to all who DID receive him,
    to those who BELIEVED in his name, he gave the right to become "children of God"
    — 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but "born of God"

    There ain't no such beast theologically as "Pre-destination"...only an all-everything fore-knowledge and spiritual wisdom.
    The word only appears in the KJV...bad translation..


    Romans 8 (KJV)...Assurance for believers
    28 And we know that all things work together for good
    to them that love God,
    to them who are the CALLED according to his purpose. (believers)
    29 For whom he did FOREKNOW, he also did "pre-destinate"
    to be conformed to the image of his Son,
    that he (Jesus) might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30 Moreover whom he did "pre-destinate",
    them he also called: and
    whom he called,
    them he also justified:
    and whom he justified,
    them he also glorified.
    31 What shall we then say to these things?
    If God be for us, who can be against us?

    "he did foreknow",...Greek 4267...proginosko...to have knowledge before hand

    "did predestinate ",,,,Greek 4309....proorizo...in the NT of God >decreeing from eternity
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2017
  9. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    Invitations go out to all, those that respond to the invitation make up the guests at the party.
    Likewise the gospel call goes out to everyone, those that respond make up the elect.

    I can throw a party and send out invitations but I do not determine who will or will not respond by showing up. Likewise God offers salvation but does not determine who will or will not take up that offer.
     
  10. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    As I said in my post, if I send out invitations to a get-together and I know the invitees well enough, I know who will answer yes. And I'm not God!

    He sends forth people to deliver the gospel and knows in advance who will respond to the invitation. In our minds it's a choice. In his mind it's predetermined. Because God is just he cannot exclude people from his kingdom if they haven't refused the invitation.
     
  11. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    I like that you pick up on the idea there is substitution taking place at the cross and it is those crucifying Christ that are actually standing in for us and not Christ Himself being our substitute (this is a much bigger subject for another time).

    No human fully “knows” the impact of all we do, so that is not the factor controlling our actions. We are not judged by what we could have known, but by what is on our hearts and really what we do know.

    It is not possible for the nonbeliever to always keep from sinning, so sin itself is not the problem, but only unforgiven sin is the problem. Our free will choice is not between sinning and not sinning (even crucifying Christ on the cross), but it is between accept and rejecting God’s forgiveness of our sins.

    All mature adults sin (knowingly and unknowingly/intentionally and unintentionally); we do stuff that hurts others and at least for a time these sins burden us. The unbeliever is spiraling down to the pigsty of live (where the prodigal son wound-up) and along the way he/she are brought to their senses and it is at that time they make the free will choice to accept or reject God’s charity.

    Let me ask you this: Christ asked God to forgive all those ignorant people involved in His crucifixion so did forgiveness of this sin fully occur for all involved and if not why not?
    Again the free will choice is not between Heaven and Hell (no one wants to go to hell). Heaven is the by-product of accepting and having Godly type Love. Wouldn’t you see that choice of heaven or hell, to be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun, forcing us to choose heaven?

    What is the objective of humans spending any time here on earth as compared to us all going to heaven directly? Does earthly man bring greater glory to God by his wonderful behavior on earth as compared to his behavior in heaven?

    You seem to not understand man’s earthly objective and God’s objective as it relates to man?
     
  12. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Man though without God's divine revelation directed to them is ignorant and can not know spiritual truth as real and genuine, the true love of the true God.
    For those who are saved, He has shone His light into their hearts, and that is why they believe, why they come to the light, which demonstrates their good deeds are done in God. We believe in God through Christ, by His intercessation, by His good works on our behalf.

    1 Peter 1
    17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

    If their was no Christ, then no believing in God either, Christ is the very God come in the flesh. and Christ has been around as long as God, meaning forever.

    John 3
    18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

    20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

    21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”


    Rather than the person doing good coming to the light by themselves, on their own, (Pelagianism) Christ says the good deeds they do are done in God, meaning of God, not of the man.
    The deeds done by and of man are as filthy rags and usually evil in some way. From God's POV, a person saying Christ is not the only way to the Father, is an evil untruth which denies the Father and the Son both, but the world would say such a thing is harmless opinion.

    v21, Christ points back to God as the source of the good deeds men do, and such persons come to the light which is Christ, because God is at work within them. His work is that you believe in the One whom He has sent, which is Christ.
     
  13. HenryM

    HenryM Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't saying that. We are all guilty because we are all sinners, while Christ has taken punishment for all who are saved.

    I think that Jesus, from cross, pleaded for people of all times, and said that people of all times don't know what they are doing. Including you and me. I don't think God's words are limited to one narrow context, to the exclusion of all others.

    Having said that, even if Jesus is pleading for each and every person who ever lived and will live, which certainly isn't exclusive reading of those words in larger context, that doesn't mean that His plea is fulfilled, as is evident from rest of the Bible. Jesus prayed three times: "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me." But even though Jesus, the Son of God, prayed three times, God the Father didn't took a cup of crucifixion from Jesus. Jesus is praying, but God the Father is performing His will. After Jesus gets to perform judgement, though, we can read in Revelation what kind of judgements Jesus pours down on earth.

    Ultimately, Jesus is performing the will of God the Father. "For I have come down from Heaven not to do my will but to do the will of Him who sent me." (John 6:38)

    I think your answer is completely disingenuous. A lot of people don't believe that Heaven and hell even exist. So they absolutely don't care for hell, nor are they afraid of it, since they don't believe in it one bit. If they were convinced that other realm, as explained through the Bible, exists, I am sure many many more people would be saved. If free will is reality, that is. After said tour, many would be open to find a way to accept and have Godly type Love, as you say. That's no "shotgun wedding" type of situation, it's providing people with full disclosure so that during their life on earth they can work out their faith and heart, or not, if they choose so on their free will.

    You have some chutzpah to write that in "free will universe" tour of Heaven and hell would have no effect on one's faith and decision to clean his or her heart and accept God.

    "You don't understand", like similar "you don't study the Bible", are just empty insults. Atheists, by the way, like to use "you don't understand" when they argue about evolution and stuff.

    In Isaiah 43 God says: "Bring my sons from afar, and my daughters from the ends of the earth, everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.”

    As far as Bible reveals, purpose for human is to glorify God. But some humans glorify God by being set up as "vessels prepared for destruction":

    "Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use? What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory—including us, whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles?" (Romans 9:21-24)

    I have an idea why humans are not created directly in Heaven, but Bible isn't clear on that, apart from glorifying part, which in fact is not full answer to the question. So I have a guess, and it's certainly not for us to exercise our free will and show to God how wise and good we are in believing in Him. Do you boast before God with your "wonderful behavior on earth", which evidently has starting point in your free will? Is your "wonderful behavior on earth" yours or did God give it to you? "For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?" (1 Corinthians 4:7)

    Anyway, I don't want to give you what I think is the reason why we are born on earth and not directly in Heaven. I already wrote a lot while you completely lost me with what I find an absolutely disingenuous answer about tour of Heaven and hell having no effect on one's faith and decision to truly accept God in "free will universe".

    Unless you retract that answer, and acknowledge that such tour would probably have a positive qualitative impact on salvation in "free will universe", I will not continue this with you. I am certainly not going to go back and forth with one who would be so bent to prove his point to actually write complete nonsense.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2017
  14. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    Correct. YOU may not send invitations to all but God does.

    Simply because God foreknows who will respond does not keep Him from sending the gospel call to all.

    If God sends invitations only to some, then God 1) becomes a respecter of persons and 2) is culpable for the lost.....yet God is neither
     
  15. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    The obvious first question that comes from this dissertation is: Since man is hell bound without God’s help and God could just as easily help everyone does it not show a lack of Love on God’s part by not helping everyone?

    We are not talking about man initially “doing” some worthy thing, being righteous or being even loving, but being like a poor needy beggar willing to accept needed charity, which is not some worthy task or noble deed.

    You are putting the cart before the horse. The unbeliever turning to willingly and humbly accept God’s help because he has come to his senses and sees what bad shape he has gotten himself into (this is like the prodigal son) is not doing some “good” deed. We are talking about things done before coming to the acceptance of God’s help (charity/Love/mercy/grace) and not good deeds done by God through the Christian afterwards. The Beggar humbly willing to accept pure charity is not doing any “good work” and in the first century begging was not working or honorable. The free will choice is between wimping out, giving up, and surrendering to your enemy while he is still your enemy or being macho, hanging in there, willing to pay the piper and/or willing to take your deserved punishment. The willingness to accept pure charity can be for selfish reasons (like the prodigal son) he wants to have just some kind of life.
     
  16. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    But not everyone gets to hears the gospel, for your statement to be true, that God sends the invitation to all, then everyone must hear the gospel. God is no respecter of persons regarding their sin for all have sinned, but not everyone has heard.

    the no respecter of persons your taking out of context, simply all have sinned and all need to repent to be saved, both the jew and the gentile.

    Acts 10:33-35Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
    33 So at once I sent for you, and you [being a Jew] have done a kind andcourteous and handsome thing in coming. Now then, we are all present in the sight of God to listen to all that you have been instructed by the Lord to say.

    34 And Peter opened his mouth and said: Most certainly and thoroughly I now perceive and understand that God shows no partiality and is no respecter of persons,

    35 But in every nation he who venerates and has a reverential fear for God, treating Him with worshipful obedience and living uprightly, is acceptable to Him and sure of being received and welcomed [by Him].
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
  17. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How can you read this into the creation of man? Really?

    The ground is not darkness. And the breathe of life is not light.
     
  18. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    The gospel is for all Romans 1:16, the fact all will not hear it is not God's fault nor makes God a respecter of persons. There will be millions if not billions who WILL hear the gospel but reject it, that is not God's fault either nor God showing respect of persons. Men are lost NOT because they did not hear the gospel but are lost because of their sins.

    In Acts 10 is where the gospel was taken to the Gentiles. Had God limited the gospel to just the Jews, or to those of a certain race or descent that would make God a respecter of persons. But God made the gospel available to both Jew and Gentile, rich and poor per verse 35 "But in every nation..." And every one saved will be saved in the same way by "working righteousness", so there is no partiality in how men will be saved with all men being judged by the same gospel standard, no partiality.

    If you were on vacation and traveling thru a town you had never been and pulled over for speeding, you might say "I did not know what the speed limit was" for you had not heard or knew about the laws of that town. Yet ignorance is no excuse, you still get a ticket. Another person who knew the law but speeds anyway and is pulled over, he also gets a ticket. There is no partiality shown whether one knew the law or not. The laws of that town are for everyone to follow, yet your lack of knowledge does not make the towns' law partial against you. Likewise, one's lack of knowledge of the gospel having not heard the gospel does not make God partial towards them. Again, ignorance is no excuse nor does man's ignorance imply partiality on God's part.

    God's impartiality does not prevent Him from putting conditions on salvation such as "hearing" and "obeying" - Romans 10:17; Hebrews 5:9.

    Furthermore, God blesses people in different ways. God’s impartiality does not mean that everyone will have exactly the same amount of money, exactly the same amount of influence, exactly the same number of children, or exactly the same number of years upon the Earth. (At the very moment that Peter noted God’s impartiality, he was in the presence of a man who possessed more material wealth than Peter did.) Some do have more money than others, some have families who love them more, and some even have more opportunities to hear the Gospel preached.
    However,
    everyone can be saved, if he is willing to search for the truth. While some accountable adults may live their entire lives without hearing a single Gospel sermon, they all experience the marvelous works of the hand of God, showing every person that He exists. Paul wrote:

    [W]hat may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts and their foolish hearts were darkened (Romans 1:19-21). (my emp)
    God is No Respecter of Persons
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
  19. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    You said
    Romans 1:16, the fact all will not hear it is not God's fault nor makes God a respecter of persons.

    Paul said,
    Romans 10:14New King James Version (NKJV)

    14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
    And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

    Clearly they can not believe in Him whom they have not heard about.
    Your use of Romans 1:16 is only about believers, who have been enabled to hear, so your conclusion is faulty, out of context of that verse....
     
  20. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    You are totally misrepresenting what I said. Of course God sends invitations to all. That is beyond obvious and I never said that he doesn't.

    I suggest that you read posts more carefully before you respond without thinking to things that were not said.
     
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