Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Huh?Same as above, this is not even an argument against predestination. And to top it off, it's a little bit nonsensical, because predestination doesn't negate puprose of Jesus' crucifixtion. Let's flip your question to free will (with nonsensical nature of the question remaining):
If we have free will to believe in God, why did Jesus even have to die for us in the cross? It would have been unnecessary act on God's part, because we could use our free will to believe in God.
Well, in a way, some are granted to know more than others.
Some will just get enough from God that they are born again and they will fall into various errors with their spirit being saved, but get no rewards. And other will be ruling over cities so to speak as Christ said when He returns His reward is with Him to give to everyone the things they deserve.
And of others granted to know much, Christ saying for those to whom much is given, much will be required.
Paul had great wisdom and knowledge from God, but it did cost him physically, and Daniel also would become worn down in the flesh due to his many spiritual encounters.
Your simply ignoring what you don't like when scripture says we are predestined individually, you hate that and come up with outlandish interpretations twisting the scriptures.
You try to oppose God's word by sharing scriptures which you say go against election, but Scripture does not oppose itself, only bad doctrines oppose the TRUTH. Fact is Paul said the Jews are contrary to all men and also resist the Holy Spirit and those who are in opposition to the scriptures are doing the will of SATAN.
We get plenty of warning about those who do such things will also be not just twisting what Paul wrote but all the others they will distort, to their own eventual destruction.
As soon as someone disagrees with Christ's teaching, then we can know that they know nothing of sound doctrine.
You just throw off Christ's doctrine, just a few of His words slays your religious philosophy as I already posted. You prefer your own understanding about these things.Okay then, why are you deflecting the scriptures presented, turning around and saying "your wrong, trust me".
Why don't you enlighten me, as to why the scriptures I presented, are not as I claim they are?
I provided evidence, you could at least do the same.
@HenryM
And, Henry, there is the question of how two people can be equally good or bad but one of the two chooses Jesus and the other doesn't. If humans really are equal, they will have an equal tendency to good or to evil, depending on what it is their equal nature to do.
So, it is interesting how ones can boast what a human free will can do.
And, by the way, Adam and Eve lost their freedom, by falling to Satan, and their sin has passed on to all of us. So, why do ones claim to be free and so able, if our Apostle Paul says that in sin we have been in slavery?
And so . . . another thing > therefore, the credit is to God who alone is good, for however we have done what really is good >
"But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." (Romans 6:17)
This could be part of why Jesus says,
"No one is good but One, that is, God." (in Matthew 19:17 and in Mark 10:18 and in Luke 18:19)
Of ourselves we do not have the goodness to choose what God wants, plus if we were all equal wouldn't we make equally good or bad choices? How could two equal people make exact opposite choices about Jesus?
just a few of His words slays your religious philosophy as I already posted.
You prefer your own understanding about these things.
Simply your contrary to the truth.
1 Timothy 6:3-5New King James Version (NKJV)
Error and Greed
3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglingsof men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.
So I've been following this whole discussion with some degree of amusement and annoyance. The Bible clearly teaches predestination. It's obvious, plain, and simple.
Thinking of a real life example... Suppose that I am throwing a party and I send out invitations to many people requesting an RSVP. I know in advance that even though many people have been notified, not everyone will respond. If I know the people well enough I will know who will respond "yes", who will respond "no", and who won't respond.
God has created a gospel that has been, is, and will be heard. He knows in advance who will respond positively; he has predestined who they are. He has chosen them in advance to be a part of his family.
Any argument to the contrary is manufactured, legalistic foolishness.
Invitations go out to all, those that respond to the invitation make up the guests at the party.
Likewise the gospel call goes out to everyone, those that respond make up the elect.
I can throw a party and send out invitations but I do not determine who will or will not respond by showing up. Likewise God offers salvation but does not determine who will or will not take up that offer.
How do you explain that Jesus said, from the cross, "Father forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing?" Jesus is rightly saying that we don't know what we are doing, because we simply don't have full information to decide. So how can individual really accept something if he or she doesn't actually understand what he or she is accepting?
Why didn't God provided short tours on Heaven and Hell for everybody, so everybody can really make fully informed decision? To me, that would make complete sense if we are deciding on our free will. If I expect you to use your free will, and to fully bear it's consequences, in deciding about a project of mine, I would demonstrate to you what it is with all I have, so you can really make fully informed decision.
How do you explain putting human to decide on free will, but not giving said human all needed to make informed decision? Wouldn't much, much more people be saved if God took them on short tours of Heaven and Hell?
I like that you pick up on the idea there is substitution taking place at the cross and it is those crucifying Christ that are actually standing in for us and not Christ Himself being our substitute (this is a much bigger subject for another time).
No human fully “knows” the impact of all we do, so that is not the factor controlling our actions. We are not judged by what we could have known, but by what is on our hearts and really what we do know.
It is not possible for the nonbeliever to always keep from sinning, so sin itself is not the problem, but only unforgiven sin is the problem. Our free will choice is not between sinning and not sinning (even crucifying Christ on the cross), but it is between accept and rejecting God’s forgiveness of our sins.
All mature adults sin (knowingly and unknowingly/intentionally and unintentionally); we do stuff that hurts others and at least for a time these sins burden us. The unbeliever is spiraling down to the pigsty of live (where the prodigal son wound-up) and along the way he/she are brought to their senses and it is at that time they make the free will choice to accept or reject God’s charity.
Let me ask you this: Christ asked God to forgive all those ignorant people involved in His crucifixion so did forgiveness of this sin fully occur for all involved and if not why not?
Again the free will choice is not between Heaven and Hell (no one wants to go to hell). Heaven is the by-product of accepting and having Godly type Love. Wouldn’t you see that choice of heaven or hell, to be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun, forcing us to choose heaven?
What is the objective of humans spending any time here on earth as compared to us all going to heaven directly? Does earthly man bring greater glory to God by his wonderful behavior on earth as compared to his behavior in heaven?
You seem to not understand man’s earthly objective and God’s objective as it relates to man?
I like that you pick up on the idea there is substitution taking place at the cross and it is those crucifying Christ that are actually standing in for us and not Christ Himself being our substitute (this is a much bigger subject for another time).
Let me ask you this: Christ asked God to forgive all those ignorant people involved in His crucifixion so did forgiveness of this sin fully occur for all involved and if not why not?
Again the free will choice is not between Heaven and Hell (no one wants to go to hell). Heaven is the by-product of accepting and having Godly type Love. Wouldn’t you see that choice of heaven or hell, to be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun, forcing us to choose heaven?
You seem to not understand man’s earthly objective and God’s objective as it relates to man?
What is the objective of humans spending any time here on earth as compared to us all going to heaven directly? Does earthly man bring greater glory to God by his wonderful behavior on earth as compared to his behavior in heaven?
And I'm not God!
pescador said:]
He sends forth people to deliver the gospel and knows in advance who will respond to the invitation. In our minds it's a choice. In his mind it's predetermined. Because God is just he cannot exclude people from his kingdom if they haven't refused the invitation.
Man though without God's divine revelation directed to them is ignorant and can not know spiritual truth as real and genuine, the true love of the true God.
For those who are saved, He has shone His light into their hearts, and that is why they believe, why they come to the light, which demonstrates their good deeds are done in God. We believe in God through Christ, by His intercessation, by His good works on our behalf.
1 Peter 1
17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
If their was no Christ, then no believing in God either, Christ is the very God come in the flesh. and Christ has been around as long as God, meaning forever.
John 3
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
Rather than the person doing good coming to the light by themselves, on their own, (Pelagianism) Christ says the good deeds they do are done in God, meaning of God, not of the man.
The deeds done by and of man are as filthy rags and usually evil in some way. From God's POV, a person saying Christ is not the only way to the Father, is an evil untruth which denies the Father and the Son both, but the world would say such a thing is harmless opinion.
v21, Christ points back to God as the source of the good deeds men do, and such persons come to the light which is Christ, because God is at work within them. His work is that you believe in the One whom He has sent, which is Christ.
But not everyone gets to hears the gospel, for your statement to be true, that God sends the invitation to all, then everyone must hear the gospel. God is no respecter of persons regarding their sin for all have sinned, but not everyone has heard.Correct. YOU may not send invitations to all but God does.
Simply because God foreknows who will respond does not keep Him from sending the gospel call to all.
If God sends invitations only to some, then God 1) becomes a respecter of persons and 2) is culpable for the lost.....yet God is neither
How can you read this into the creation of man? Really?We have three distinct witnesses that God's creation is initially dark.
2) When God created Adam, He first created the man from dust of the ground (darkness), and then breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (light). It was not other way around.
But not everyone gets to hears the gospel, for your statement to be true, that God sends the invitation to all, then everyone must hear the gospel. God is no respecter of persons regarding their sin for all have sinned, but not everyone has heard.
the no respecter of persons your taking out of context, simply all have sinned and all need to repent to be saved, both the jew and the gentile.
Acts 10:33-35Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
33 So at once I sent for you, and you [being a Jew] have done a kind andcourteous and handsome thing in coming. Now then, we are all present in the sight of God to listen to all that you have been instructed by the Lord to say.
34 And Peter opened his mouth and said: Most certainly and thoroughly I now perceive and understand that God shows no partiality and is no respecter of persons,
35 But in every nation he who venerates and has a reverential fear for God, treating Him with worshipful obedience and living uprightly, is acceptable to Him and sure of being received and welcomed [by Him].
You saidThe gospel is for all Romans 1:16, the fact all will not hear it is not God's fault nor makes God a respecter of persons. There will be millions if not billions who WILL hear the gospel but reject it, that is not God's fault either nor God showing respect of persons. Men are lost NOT because they did not hear the gospel but are lost because of their sins.
In Acts 10 is where the gospel was taken to the Gentiles. Had God limited the gospel to just the Jews, or to those of a certain race or descent that would make God a respecter of persons. But God made the gospel available to both Jew and Gentile, rich and poor per verse 35 "But in every nation..." And every one saved will be saved in the same way by "working righteousness", so there is no partiality in how men will be saved with all men being judged by the same gospel standard, no partiality.
If you were on vacation and traveling thru a town you had never been and pulled over for speeding, you might say "I did not know what the speed limit was" for you had not heard or knew about the laws of that town. Yet ignorance is no excuse, you still get a ticket. Another person who knew the law but speeds anyway and is pulled over, he also gets a ticket. There is no partiality shown whether one knew the law or not. The laws of that town are for everyone to follow, yet your lack of knowledge does not make the towns' law partial against you. Likewise, one's lack of knowledge of the gospel having not heard the gospel does not make God partial towards them. Again, ignorance is no excuse nor does man's ignorance imply partiality on God's part.
God's impartiality does not prevent Him from putting conditions on salvation such as "hearing" and "obeying" - Romans 10:17; Hebrews 5:9.
Furthermore, God blesses people in different ways. God’s impartiality does not mean that everyone will have exactly the same amount of money, exactly the same amount of influence, exactly the same number of children, or exactly the same number of years upon the Earth. (At the very moment that Peter noted God’s impartiality, he was in the presence of a man who possessed more material wealth than Peter did.) Some do have more money than others, some have families who love them more, and some even have more opportunities to hear the Gospel preached.
However, everyone can be saved, if he is willing to search for the truth. While some accountable adults may live their entire lives without hearing a single Gospel sermon, they all experience the marvelous works of the hand of God, showing every person that He exists. Paul wrote:
[W]hat may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts and their foolish hearts were darkened (Romans 1:19-21). (my emp)
God is No Respecter of Persons
Correct. YOU may not send invitations to all but God does.
Simply because God foreknows who will respond does not keep Him from sending the gospel call to all.
If God sends invitations only to some, then God 1) becomes a respecter of persons and 2) is culpable for the lost.....yet God is neither
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?