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Problems with arguing against predestination

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by HenryM, Jun 22, 2017.

  1. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

    United States
    Hello, I hope everything is well and you are safe for your travels.

    The definitions for both explanations I put down are the same. My reading comprehension is just fine on this. The Calvinistic doctrine revolves around predestination and therefore they put in place the "5 points". It does talk of predestination, which includes the discussion of free will.

    Also, maybe you have maybe you haven't seen just what/who, these verses are mentioning. Maybe that is why you do not think they match the discussion.

    Please entertain me once more, when you have time, to some of the verses I typed before:

    This speaks for "ALL" people, not just the predestined elect.

    Same here.

    And again here, "everyone"/ "each one". This is unmistakably speaking to "all" people, not just the predestined elect.

    The highlighted (bold) words speak leaps and bounds of "all" people, not just the predestined elect.

    This scripture here is some of the most damaging to the predestination doctrine.

    Again, another very damaging scripture.

    This one too, is very damaging to the predestination crowd.

    Perhaps, this verse here just "puts the nail in the coffin" so to speak. These at the same time show free will. We have choices that God allows us to make, even though He knows the answer, He is still "longsuffering" not willing that "any should perish" (2 Peter 3:9).

    Verses like these, show both the free will we have AND the false premise of predestination.

    I really do appreciate your time in this, thank you.
  2. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

    The arm of the Lord, He must reveal or the person will remain blinded and hardened by either Satan or God.
    All things are as He wills.

    1 Corinthians 8:6
    yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

    2 Corinthians 4:15
    For all things are for your sakes, that grace, having spread through the many, may cause thanksgiving to abound to the glory of God.

    2 Corinthians 5:18
    Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,

    And God shapes our will.
    All things are under His authority to do with as He wills, and yes God has a will, do we not pray thy will be done on earth?
    Matthew 8:8-10New King James Version (NKJV)
    8 The centurion answered and said, “Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.

    10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!

    Matthew 11:27
    All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

    Luke 10:22
    All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

    John 7:17
    If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.

    Romans 7:21
    I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.

    Romans 9:16
    So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

    Romans 9:18
    Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He willsHe hardens.

    1 Corinthians 4:19
    But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord wills, and I will know, not the word of those who are puffed up, but the power.

    1 Corinthians 12:11
    But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

    James 4:15
    Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.”

    His will not ours, determines our destiny.
    Ephesians 1
    11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
  3. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

    United States
    Okay, here is my reply.

    You are repeatedly accusing me of not answering your question, when I very clearly shown you that not only do I understand what you are asking, but I gave examples from scripture and explained them.

    I believe this is a clear deflection of previous questions I asked you so that you not only do not have to answer me, but "attempt" to say I am out of my league.

    None the less, obvious deflection being the main point. You seem very good at it.

    Have a wonderful day as I don't see how anyone would get answers out of you, only belittling statements. Good day.
  4. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    Of course.

    I would tend to agree. We live in a society that values free will and equal treatment so much that most cannot think differently even when the discussion switches to things supernatural. So the free will advocates simply are stumped by the thought of a God who might elect people...because that makes him be *unfair.*
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  5. HenryM

    HenryM Well-Known Member

    How do you explain that Jesus said, from the cross, "Father forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing?" Jesus is rightly saying that we don't know what we are doing, because we simply don't have full information to decide. So how can individual really accept something if he or she doesn't actually understand what he or she is accepting?

    Why didn't God provided short tours on Heaven and Hell for everybody, so everybody can really make fully informed decision? To me, that would make complete sense if we are deciding on our free will. If I expect you to use your free will, and to fully bear it's consequences, in deciding about a project of mine, I would demonstrate to you what it is with all I have, so you can really make fully informed decision.

    How do you explain putting human to decide on free will, but not giving said human all needed to make informed decision? Wouldn't much, much more people be saved if God took them on short tours of Heaven and Hell?
  6. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

    I know you didn't ask me the question. But if you had I could answer it very clearly.

    He wants us to work at it. There's enough rope in every doctrine to hang the person who will not receive both sides of the various paradoxes in the scripture but rather just takes the side he prefers and runs with it.

    Theology is a test - as was the garden situation.

    "For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you." 1 Corinthians 11:19
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  7. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran


    I'm heading out across country at about 9:30 Pacific time. Just have a minute to respond.

    More when I get back perhaps.
    I appreciate your time as well.

    I can't spare the time to go through you post one point at a time.

    I'll just say that your verses do try to refute some of the doctrines of Calvinism but they do not address predestination and ordaination except with a straw man argument.

    The WCF clearly shows us that free will is part of what God has ordained and that it in no way contradicts these things but rather serves as a vehicle to bring about what God has predestined to occur.

    Every Calvinist I know of accepts the premise of free will even as they accept their other doctrines of which the predestination of all things is one.

    The problem is that the "other side" will not accept both sides but only one side of the paradox encountered in considering these things.

    Which, of course, is the point made in the OP of this thread which we are participating in.

    I.e. - people who have believed all along the doctrine of predestination have no trouble at all with the doctrine of free will.

    The problem is all from the other side. They (you apparently) are unable to assimilate all that God has said into a cohesive systematic theology as the other side had. As a result they believe incorrectly that Calvinists cannot logically believe both sides of the paradox and be logically coherent.

    More - perhaps when I return.
  8. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

    United States
    Isn't this, in itself, a contradiction. You cannot be and not be at the same time. You cannot think and not think an idea is true at the same time. You make Calvinists (among others like Presbyterians, who believe the same more or less) sound more confused than I originally thought they were.
  9. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

    Damaging to the 'predestination crowd'?
    Except that scripture says predestination is true, so your damaging to the faith of others and yourself.

    Your view might change scripture like this from whom to what...
    'For What He foreknew'
    Which changes the meaning.
    Using 'whom' is personal, individuals did God foreknow, not what they did.

    29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
  10. HenryM

    HenryM Well-Known Member

    I have a different way to put, but that's the gist of it, I agree with you.

    And the thing you say, "He wants us to work at it", is the start of it, with God's own words to Adam in Genesis 3:19: "By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread". I believe God is not only talking about bread we eat but also about knowledge. First and foremost knowledge He gives us through His word. We have to sweat to understand it, it's not given to us laid out on a plate. And that's just the start of it.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
  11. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

    That though was a part of the curse God placed on mankind.
    There is justification by grace, faith, and His blood versus men working by which no man is justified made right with God.

    Romans 4:4
    Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

    Romans 4:5
    [ David Celebrates the Same Truth ] But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

    Romans 4:6
    just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

    Romans 11:6
    And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

    Now here you go, by grace you gain knowledge of Christ, not by working of your mind, inspiration of God is by revelation knowledge to you.

    Notice Paul says, yet not I was laboring but the grace of God which was with me.

    1 Corinthians 15:10
    But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
  12. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

    United States
    Yes. Did you read the verses I put down? Have you followed the conversation as well? Because there were plenty of other verses too.

    Maybe you didn't understand it in context.

    "1. We must realize that the doctrine of predestination has often colored our understanding of this verse.

    A. The false doctrine of predestination has long argued that God has an established, set blue-print for people. Their destiny is merely to follow the script that God has written for their lives. Men and women have no choice but to follow this God written road map. And, they argue, that road map may be filled with many pitfalls.

    B. This doctrine makes God guilty of everything that happens in this earth – including all of the evil. There were even some Jewish Rabbis that argued for what they called the "Yetzer Hara" – "the evil inclination." This belief was that God designed us to have an inclination toward evil, therefore it is His plan that we do evil.

    Or at least He must accept it when we commit evil because of this evil inclination that He placed within us. James clearly refutes this false position in James 1:12-16. Paul, in the Roman letter, also discredits the modern doctrine of predestination:

    1) In 8:13 Paul makes an appeal that they not live according to the flesh. They have a choice in this matter. If they will put to death the deeds of the body they will live.

    2) In 6:12-13 Paul makes an appeal to not let sin reign in our mortal bodies that we should obey its lusts. We "present" our bodies to sin or to God. We choose whether to be a slave to obedience or a slave of sin (v. 16). If men were predetermined in their actions, then this section would be meaningless.

    3) In 2:6-11 Paul points out that God's judgment is based upon the deeds men have done. Those who have chosen to do good will be rewarded. Those who have chosen to do evil will receive condemnation. It is God's plan that man make a choice – obedience or disobedience. His judgment will be impartial (v. 11). How could there be no partiality with God when he predetermined some to be saved and others to be lost (separate from their own free choice)?

    4) In 10:11 Paul says "whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed." This shows us that salvation is for all and that man determines his destiny."

    Pulled from here Romans 8:28 – A Misunderstood Passage - What Do The Scriptures Say?

    I also give you a list of references you may not have seen in a previous post that make predestination unstable and unreliable ground:
  13. HenryM

    HenryM Well-Known Member

    I wasn't talking about knowledge as works for salvation. Born again believers still work for their food in the sweat of their faces, just like unbelievers. So that decree wasn't lifted. And I don't think that God meant that we are to sweat only for food.

    Believers get a free pass to everlasting life, but not a free pass to God's knowledge.

    By the way, "sweating" to get knowledge is from our perspective. From God's perspective, God chooses to whom He gives which parts of His knowledge, just like He gives different talents to different people. So we all read the same Bible, but only those that God granted access to understanding certain issue can understand said issue, through "sweating", while others are blinded.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
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  14. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    Predestination for a number of people means that God is the One who has what it takes to get us to do what is good for ourselves, because God alone is good, and so He alone can of His own nature bring about what is good and with Him in His grace we share in His ability to choose and do what is good.

    If we were to do our own willing, this would not be in the quality of love which we need to do things. So we need how God brings us together with Him so in union with Him we can do things in His quality of His love.

    And ones understand that Jesus died for us because we could not satisfy God, ourselves, enough to get forgiven and reconciled; so Jesus has satisfied God, for us. So, this fits with how God alone can do all that is good and which we need :)
  15. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States

    And, Henry, there is the question of how two people can be equally good or bad but one of the two chooses Jesus and the other doesn't. If humans really are equal, they will have an equal tendency to good or to evil, depending on what it is their equal nature to do.

    So, it is interesting how ones can boast what a human free will can do.

    And, by the way, Adam and Eve lost their freedom, by falling to Satan, and their sin has passed on to all of us. So, why do ones claim to be free and so able, if our Apostle Paul says that in sin we have been in slavery?

    And so . . . another thing > therefore, the credit is to God who alone is good, for however we have done what really is good >

    "But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." (Romans 6:17)

    This could be part of why Jesus says,

    "No one is good but One, that is, God." (in Matthew 19:17 and in Mark 10:18 and in Luke 18:19)

    Of ourselves we do not have the goodness to choose what God wants, plus if we were all equal wouldn't we make equally good or bad choices? How could two equal people make exact opposite choices about Jesus?
  16. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

    United States
    Predestination...is the doctrine that ALL events have been (IRREVOCABLY!) willed / "planned" / fore-ordained by God.

    John Calvin (MISTAKENLY!) interpreted biblical pre-destination to mean that:
    God willed eternal damnation for some people and salvation for others.("Election")

    Explanations of pre-destination often seek to address the so-called "paradox of free will",
    whereby God's all -everything nature seems incompatible with human spiritual "free will" to choose . In this usage, predestination can be regarded as a form of "determinism"; and usually predeterminism.

    REF:... .Predestination - Wikipedia

    The words translated “predestined” in the Scriptures referenced above are from the Greek word "proorizo",
    which carries the meaning of “determine beforehand,” “ordain,” “to decide upon ahead of time.”

    God in His sovereignty and all-everything nature FORE-KNOWS those who choose to be saved.
    The Bible says that we have the choice—all who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10).

    The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him or turning away anyone who is seeking Him (Deuteronomy 4:29).

    1. a person must be drawn by God (John 6:44) and accept spirit-led faith / belief unto salvation (Romans 1:16).

    2. God fore-knows who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true.

    REF:.... What is predestination? Is predestination biblical?

    Theology ....DEFINITION

    a. the action of God in fore-ordaining from eternity WHATEVER comes to pass....NOT the spiritual POSITION of Man's Spirit

    b. the decree of God by which certain souls are fore-ordained to salvation or damnation. Compare "election"..., double predestination....(Calvinism)

    If God already knows if we will accept Him or reject Him, AND it has already Divinely irrevocably fore-known AND fore-determined what Man's spiritual POSITION will be, then it doesn't matter what we do in this life.

    "Two views of predestination are prominent among church groups today.

    One view, known as Calvinism, holds that God offers irresistible grace to those whom he elects to save.

    The other view, known as Arminianism, insists that God’s grace is the source of redemption but that it can be resisted by man through his "free choice/WILL".

    In Calvinism, God chooses the believer;
    In Arminianism, the believer chooses God."


    Now, let's look at every verse in the New Testament which contains the word "predestine," or "predestinate."
    Actually, "predestinate" appears only four times in the English translation Bible.
    However, the Greek word which was translated "predestinate" is found in six places, so two times it was translated as something else. Here are the six places:

    Acts 4:27-28 (NKJV): "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done."

    Romans 8:29-30: "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

    1 Corinthians 2:7-8: "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

    Ephesians 1:3-12: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth -- in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory."

    Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words contains this entry under "Predestinate":
    "This verb [:"proorizo" -- predestinate] is to be distinguished from
    "proginosko", 'to foreknow'

    What does all that mean? Vine's tells us that the Greek word meaning "foreknowledge" has to do with people.
    The word meaning "predestine" has to do more with what it is we are predestined to do, or to become.
    This implies that the biblical references to predestination do not refer to any particular human at all, other than Yeshua Himself, as we saw earlier in Acts 4:27-28.

    Let's look at those verses which use the Greek word "proginosko" (Strong's #4267).
    Notice how these verses all deal with foreknowing something about PEOPLE.

    Acts 26:5, Paul speaking: "They knew me from the first [they foreknew me], if they were willing to testify, that according to the strictest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee."

    Romans 8:29: "For whom He fore-knew,
    He ALSO pre-destined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He (Jesus) might be the firstborn among many brethren."

    Romans 11:2: "God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,"

    1 Peter 1:20: "He [Yeshua] indeed was fore-ordained before the foundation of the world,
    but was manifest in these last times for you."

    2 Peter 3:17: "You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked."

    In these verses, we can see that foreknowledge has to do with PEOPLE, not whether someone is saved.
    None of these verses that talk about fore-knowledge talks about pre-destination -- except one!

    Romans 8:29 contrasts fore-knowledge with pre-destination, showing that the two are not the same thing!

    We are seeing more evidence that predestinarianism is not the correct interpretation of scripture!

    REF: Predestination
  17. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

    Well, in a way, some are granted to know more than others.
    Some will just get enough from God that they are born again and they will fall into various errors with their spirit being saved, but get no rewards. And other will be ruling over cities so to speak as Christ said when He returns His reward is with Him to give to everyone the things they deserve.

    And of others granted to know much, Christ saying for those to whom much is given, much will be required.
    Paul had great wisdom and knowledge from God, but it did cost him physically, and Daniel also would become worn down in the flesh due to his many spiritual encounters.
  18. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

    Your simply ignoring what you don't like when scripture says we are predestined individually, you hate that and come up with outlandish interpretations twisting the scriptures.
    You try to oppose God's word by sharing scriptures which you say go against election, but Scripture does not oppose itself, only bad doctrines oppose the TRUTH. Fact is Paul said the Jews are contrary to all men and also resist the Holy Spirit and those who are in opposition to the scriptures are doing the will of SATAN.
    We get plenty of warning about those who do such things will also be not just twisting what Paul wrote but all the others they will distort, to their own eventual destruction.

    As soon as someone disagrees with Christ's teaching, then we can know that they know nothing of sound doctrine.
  19. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

    Your putting together an ideology of mashed up scriptures according to sophistry and human wisdom and frankly it's all just dead words. Kind of like mashed potatoes, grind up some scriptures and force them to fit your already predetermined conclusion.
    When Christ says all that the Father gives Him will come to Him, he is talking about those God has predestined to come to the Lord Jesus and be saved, and that is inspirational from the Holy Spirit.
  20. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

    Are you asking us because you don't know the answer?