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Problems with arguing against predestination

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by HenryM, Jun 22, 2017.

  1. FenderTL5

    FenderTL5 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "Problems with arguing against predestination"
    1) We already know how it will turn out. ;)
     
  2. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Who is we, who were the first to put their hope in Christ?

    Eph 1:11 in whom also we did obtain an inheritance, being foreordained according to the purpose of Him who the all things is working according to the counsel of His will,
    Eph 1:12 for our being to the praise of His glory, even those who did first hope in the Christ,
    Eph 1:13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth--the good news of your salvation--in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

    Who is we? Who is our? Who is ye?
    Paul is speaking here of two different groups of people. Who are they?
     
  3. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    Here are those verses in normal modern English:

    "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation.

    1) "we were also chosen" includes Paul and his associates, the Christians in Ephesus, and others Christians who might read/hear the epistle.

    2) "we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory" is describing the same people as #1: all Christians, including himself..

    3) "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation." Obviously this refers to the recipients of his letter and others who might read/hear it.

    Clearly Paul is not speaking to two different groups of people. His letter is addressed to the Ephesians, Christians the same as he was. And as was customary the letter was most probably read to Christians in other places If I say that I am an American and you (plural) are Americans that doesn't mean there are separate groups of Americans.

    Finally I suggest using a modern translation in order to clearly understand what was written. You write in modern English; why not read in modern English? And drop the chapters and verses; they were not part of the original manuscripts but were added centuries later.
     
  4. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

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    I take it that you didn't read the articles.

    Anyhow, my response to the "I have more verses than you" is that, well, the fact that I have verses out of the gospel, shows the error of predestination. It shows that maybe you are taking it out of context. You cannot reverse that statement against me because the verses I gave are straightforward. Besides, there are other verses such as 1 Timothy 2:3-4, that prove without a doubt predestination false. I just didn't dig into every single one of them.

    Do I really have to dig up ALL of them when just the few I did prove predestination false? No. The verses I gave are sufficient to prove the point.

    I would suggest reading those articles as well since they explain with verses there and I don't have to types pages worth here.
     
  5. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

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    If you did study the bible you would know why. The gospel, "is that which is perfect". It is God's inspired word. All we have to do is tell people whats in it. Simple as that.

    Reference verses:
    John 1:1
    1 Thessalonians 2:13
    Acts 11:1
    Revelation 1:2
    Colossians 1:25
    2 Peter 1:20-21

    The bible does teach free will (heres another verse, see there IS more, I just didn't dig them all up Revelation 22:17).

    It doesn't teach predestination. That is man made.
     
  6. HenryM

    HenryM Well-Known Member

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    All verses you provided can be explained through predestination. Your way of argumentation is to drop verses (and links) and attack other side for "not studying the Bible". I can do that too, but I won't because I am aware that one can actually study the Bible and not see predestination. Just like one can study the Bible and not end up seeing God. It's an empty insult.

    Anyway, you didn't answer my main question to you. To repeat, what's your explanation for why are many issues in the Bible revealed with seeming contradictions?
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
  7. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    Oh ---- I don't know. Let me take a stab at it.

    Because you are told to by God?

    Silly reason for some I suppose. But it was a good enough reason for the apostles and it's good enough for me.
     
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  8. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    Because the fall came through a lack of faith in God's Word apparently He has decided that salvation will come through faith in the Word of God.

    You do know, don't you, that so-called Calvinists do not believe that one is saved by being predestined or even by being one of the elect?

    They believe that salvation comes through faith in God's Word.

    I'm not sure you thought that they believe otherwise - just being sure.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
  9. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    2) "we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory" is describing the same people as #1: all Christians, including himself..

    All Christians including Paul were the first to put their faith in Christ?

    I don't agree, Paul is talking about the Jews. The 'ye' are the Gentiles. Paul does this over and over again throughout his letters. Always stressing to the Jews and the Gentiles that the Gentiles were in God's foreordained plan from the very beginning, that He would call them through the Gospel message just as He had called the Jews before them. It was a mystery that was only revealed through the Christ and His Gospel, but was prophesied by the Hebrew prophets.

    Here also Peter in Acts points out the same..

    Amos 9 11"In that day I will raise up the fallen booth of David, And wall up its breaches; I will also raise up its ruins And rebuild it as in the days of old; 12That they may possess the remnant of Edom And all the nations who are called by My name," Declares the LORD who does this.…

    Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
    Act 15:16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up:
    Act 15:17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,
    Act 15:18 Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from of old.

    Paul teaches....
    2Co 5:19 to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world [Jew and Gentile] unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
    ....
    2Co 5:20 We are ambassadors therefore on behalf of Christ, as though God were entreating by us: we beseech you on behalf of Christ, be ye reconciled to God.
    [emphasis mine]
     
  10. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    Predestination is man made alright. Paul the man, writing by the Holy Spirit, wrote clearly to the Ephesians that Christians were/are predestined by God. Since the Bible is considered to be authoritative I believe what is clearly written. (See my post above if you want the details)
     
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  11. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    So did God and He knew it before we were even in existence. In fact He knew everything.

    There was absolutely no chance whatsoever that what God knew before the foundation of the world would happen if He acted in certain ways would not indeed happen.

    Therefore the destiny of everything in God's creation was predestined to occur the moment God decided that He would act or when He so acted, as you prefer.

    This isn't theological or even logical rocket surgery for those who believe in an omniscient God.

    By the way the concept of predestination is not the same as the concept of election.

    If one is going to argue against a doctrine believed by the largest segment of truly systematically inclined theologians since the Protestant Reformation that person really should at least understand what the doctrine is.

    P.S.
    Fender - these comments are not meant as some kind of critique or rebuttal of your post.

    I just used your comment as an avenue to get out some thoughts I wanted to make.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
  12. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    When Paul wrote to the people of Corinth he was clearly explaining the gospel to them. It would be nonsensical to write to Christians that they should be reconciled to God, since they were already reconciled.

    Did you read the verses before the ones you posted? Here they are...

    "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation."

    He would never say to "new creations" that they needed to be reconciled to God, contradicting himself immediately.

    It makes absolutely no sense to lift verses from the Old Testament, written before the New Covenant was made, and apply them to all people once there was a New Covenant made effective by Christ's blood.

    The verses that you lifted out of context without considering the intended audience are a poor, self-contradictory argument against predestination.
     
  13. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

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    Then, for my information, explain these verses through predestination

    John 3:16
    Mark 16:15-16
    Matthew 28:18-20
    2 Peter 3:9
    Revelation 22:17
    1 Timothy 2:3-4

    You are in the "Affirmative" place in this debate, you would have to convince people through scripture/evidence that that is indeed what is fact, predestination.

    I have responded from the "Negative" place in the debate, giving you clear cut scripture that states "ALL" people have this chance of unmerited grace through obedience of their own free will.

    How will you disprove the scripture I placed before you showing that "all" people have this chance of being saved through obedience of the gospel?

    Sorry this part was lost on my thoughts of the other subject.

    They seem like contradictions to you (or maybe not you but others) because you (or they) are not putting them in context. To me, they are in complete harmony with all the rest of scripture. I have no problems with the verses you put down. I also understand them. I see no contradictions in the gospel. Now, I don't think you believe there are contradictions, but I have to ask instead of assume, do you?

    From other scripture in the bible (such as 2 Peter 3:9) I can clearly determine that this is not just for a select chosen few, but for everyone who chooses to obey the gospel.
     
  14. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Silly me, I just skipped one verse, really?
    Let's try this again.

    2Co 5:17 Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new.
    2Co 5:18 But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave unto us the ministry of reconciliation; [us...the apostles, the ministry of reconciliation, the Gospel]
    2Co 5:19 to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation. [us, the apostles, the word of reconciliation, the Gospel]
    2Co 5:20 We are ambassadors therefore on behalf of Christ, as though God were entreating by us: we beseech you on behalf of Christ, be ye reconciled to God.

    Who is we, the apostles who deliver the Gospel and beseech you, the unsaved, to reconcile yourself to God, through the hearing of the Gospel message, repent and be saved.
     
  15. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

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    Are you referring to Ephesians 1:4?

    stated by Wayne Jackson:
    "
    As he commences his letter to the saints in Ephesus, Paul declares that God:

    “chose us in him [Christ] before the foundation of the world ... having foreordained [predestinated – KJV] us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself?” (1:4-5).

    Does this passage teach that our salvation is strictly a matter of God’s arbitrary election, settled before the world was made, irrespective of any choice that we might exercise in the matter?

    That was the philosophy of John Calvin. The Presbyterian Westminster Confession of Faith stated:

    “By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and other foreordained to everlasting death” (Article III).

    This concept makes void every passage in the Bible that teaches human responsibility. If one’s eternal destiny was sealed from the beginning of time, what is the purpose of preaching to the lost?

    The key phrase in Ephesians 1:4 is “in him.” It was not the case that God chose certain individuals to be either saved or lost; rather, the Lord foreordained that a certain class of persons would be saved.

    What sort of class? Those who submit to Heaven’s divine plan of redemption, which, in this dispensation, involves obeying Jesus Christ (Hebrews 5:8-9), and entering into that relationship that is described as being “in him” (cf. Galatians 3:26-27).

    To say the same thing in another way, before the world’s foundation, God elected to save those who would be obedient to His Son. Underline “chose us in him,” and record this comment: Not individual election, but class election."

    Reference verses cited:Ephesians 1:4; Hebrews 5:8-9; Galatians 3:26-27

    Not to mention, 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9, you are going to have trouble disproving free will and the intent that God wishes ALL people to come to Him by obedience.
     
  16. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well when the apostles quote those very scriptures I seems to me that they found those scriptures relevant and so yes it does make perfect sense.
     
  17. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    Anytime I see a group of blue lettered scriptures in these posts I try to look them up to see what they say. I did so with yours.

    But I'm trying to see what your point is here. Are you saying that these scriptures somehow show that predestination isn't a scripture based fact?

    Obviously Calvinists believe that the evangelizing of the world was predestined to happen just as was everything else that happens.
    Why would anyone have to "disprove" such a thing to support the idea that everything which happens in God's creation was predestined by God to occur just as He knew it would before the foundation of the world?
     
  18. HenryM

    HenryM Well-Known Member

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    Listen, you seem to not even understand the question I've asked you, yet you want to argue complex issue as predestination. I asked you precise question about seeming contradictions because that needs to be clear, I believe, to the one who wants to have good understanding of any issue in the Bible.

    The question was "Why are there seeming contradictions in the Bible on many different issues (not just this one issue)"? Do you get the question - why, not how or do you presumably have or don't have problems with this or that verse.

    Let me help you a bit, because I am asking the question for the third time.

    In Matthew 28:19 Jesus commands: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." Yet in Acts none of the recorded baptisms were done in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, while mostly in the name of Jesus alone.

    James writes: "Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?" Yet other verses point that one is saved thorugh faith alone. Jesus even says that works themselves are faith, not physical works - when people ask Jesus "What must we do to do the works God requires?" (John 6:28) Jesus answers: "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

    In John 6 Jesus says: "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them." This command for communion (and other verses I didn't quote here) suggests literal communion is necessary for salvation. Yet there are other verses that don't put communion as condition for salvation. Similar contradiction surrounds water baptism.

    In John's first epistle, third chapter, John writes: "You know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." So it literally says that "no one who continues to sin has either seen Jesus or known Jesus." Yet in first chapter of the same epistle John writes: "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." And John, by the way, is writing to believers. Also, we know that nobody is sinless even if he or she is born again.

    And on and on. There are seeming contradictions for most issues in the Bible. Verses that literally oppose one another on the same issue. At this point, I am not even sure you understand the gravity of that fact. But let's say you do get that there are seeming contradictions, and you are actually humbled by it. My question is: "Why are there seeming contradictions, verses that directly oppose one another on the same issue, for many issues in the Bible?" Why?
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
  19. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

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    Yes. If predestination was true, then the verses I have provided are in total contradiction, making the bible unstable and unreliable. However, because we know the bible is divinely inspired, and I was able to produce scripture that disproves the notion of predestination, then the people who believe in such an idea must have place out of context, the scripture.

    Which is in total contradiction of their predestination belief.

    If predestination was true, there is no need to preach the word of God, since God will have His "elect" come to Him.

    If predestination were true, then once saved always saved would be true, and Hebrews 6:4-6 (showing one can fall from the faith) would be a contradiction found in the bible.

    Because the bible says to prove all things and "test the spirits". One example 2 Timothy 4:2.
     
  20. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    I have read them and they are not in total contradiction or any other kind of contradiction.

    Please pick at least one of them and show why you believe this is so.
    Please produce such scripture. The ones you provided in no way disprove the notion of predestination.
    How so?

    It isn't productive to simply say that something is a contradiction. You must show how it is.
    Obviously God could do anything He wants to do.

    He has chosen to use the preaching of the gospel to bring His elect to the Son.
    If Hebrews 6:4-6 proved loss of salvation then it would also prove that it is impossible to bring those who have fallen away to repentance - the very thing we are told to strive to do elsewhere in the scriptures.

    You need to apply your own standards to your interpretation of passages and not interpret a passage in such a way that it is an obvious contradiction to numerous other passages in the scriptures.
    Exactly. Please do so.

    Your scriptures don't show what you are aiming to show.

    What's more - you seem to not understand the doctrine of predestination.

    The Westminster Confession of Faith (the most accepted authority on the Calvinist view of such things) says very clearly in several places that predestination and the ordination of all things in no way infringes on the right and ability of men to make choices.

    You make assumptions about the doctrine of predestination which the most authoritative sources of Reformed doctrine have disavowed repeatedly.

    You argue against things you do not understand. That's very common here in the forum of course.

    But please --- educate yourself so you don't misrepresent your brothers and sisters in the faith.

    Don't teach haphazardly against what you are not up to speed on. There awaits for you a stricter judgment than there would be if you simply asked questions and listened attentively to people who are up to speed on the doctrines in question and the appropriate related scriptures.
     
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