Problems with arguing against predestination

My question would be - why does God need to predestine anything?

Will they not come to pass if He didn't predestine them?

Does God's omniscience depend upon predestination?

HenryM said:

I asked you precise question about seeming contradictions because that needs to be clear, I believe, to the one who wants to have good understanding of any issue in the Bible.

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In logic, the Law of Contradiction can be stated as such "Nothing can both be and not be"

Is the same thing or person under consideration?

Is the same time period in view?

Is the language that seems to be self-contradictory employed in the same sense?

To give an example: Robert is rich. Robert is poor.

Do these statements contradict one another? The answer is — not necessarily.

#1-Could be two different Roberts are under consideration.

#2-Could be two different time frames. Robert could have been rich at one time but then fell upon financial ruin later.

#3-Could be that the terms rich and poor could have been used in different senses. Robert could be spiritually rich but economically poor.

Anyhow, I am trying to show you that I do in fact understand by using this example.

To apply it to the bible, a couple examples:

The Scriptures affirm that faith saves apart from works and on the other hand, the New Testament declares that faith apart form works cannot save. “Surely,” some contend, “this is a contradiction.”

The fact is, it is not, for different types of works are addressed in the Scriptures. Salvation involves works of obedience to the commands of Jesus Christ (James 2:14ff; Philippians 2:12), but pardon cannot be obtained by works of the Mosaic Law (Romans 3:28; 4:2ff) or by boastful works of human merit (Ephesians 2:9). There is no contradiction in the Bible on this point.

Like I said before, when you thought I didn't understand,

Acts2:38 said:

They seem like contradictions to you (or maybe not you but others) because you (or they) are not putting them in context. To me, they are in complete harmony with all the rest of scripture.

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The next example is this,

If the Bible is to be understood, it is imperative that recognition be given to the different senses in which words may be employed. Normally, words are used literally, but they can be used figuratively as well.

In Matthew 11:14, John the Baptizer is identified as “Elijah.” Yet, the forerunner of Christ, in John 1:21, plainly denied that he was Elijah.

These verses are reconciled quite easily. Though John was not literally Elijah, physically reincarnated; nevertheless he was the spiritual antitype of the great prophet; he prepared the way for the Lord “in the spirit and power of Elijah” (Luke 1:17).

Did the apostle Paul contradict himself when he affirmed on one occasion that he was “as touching the righteousness which is in the law, found blameless” (Philippians 3:6), and yet, at another time, he acknowledged that he was “chief” of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15)?

Again, the answer must be “No.” In the former passage, Paul was describing the reputation he enjoyed among his Hebrew contemporaries as a Pharisee, while in the latter verse, he expressed the anguish he felt at having been a persecutor of the Christian Way.

I hope now you can answer my questions? Thanks in advance.

Marvin Knox said:

I have read them and they are not in total contradiction or any other kind of contradiction.

Please pick at least one of them and show why you believe this is so.

Please produce such scripture. The ones you provided in no way disprove the notion of predestination.

How so?

It isn't productive to simply say that something is a contradiction. You must show how it is.

Obviously God could do anything He wants to do.

He has chosen to use the preaching of the gospel to bring His elect to the Son.

If Hebrews 6:4-6 proved loss of salvation then it would also prove that it is impossible to bring those who have fallen away to repentance - the very thing we are told to strive to do elsewhere in the scriptures.

You need to apply your own standards to your interpretation of passages and not interpret a passage in such a way that it is an obvious contradiction to numerous other passages in the scriptures.

Exactly. Please do so.

Your scriptures don't show what you are aiming to show.

What's more - you seem to not understand the doctrine of predestination.

The Westminster Confession of Faith (the most accepted authority on the Calvinist view of such things) says very clearly in several places that predestination and the ordination of all things in no way infringes on the right and ability of men to make choices.

You make assumptions about the doctrine of predestination which the most authoritative sources of Reformed doctrine have disavowed repeatedly.

You argue against things you do not understand. That's very common here in the forum of course.

But please --- educate yourself so you don't misrepresent your brothers and sisters in the faith.

Don't teach haphazardly against what you are not up to speed on. There awaits for you a stricter judgment than there would be if you simply asked questions and listened attentively to people who are up to speed on the doctrines in question and the appropriate related scriptures.

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It is clear now you are not open for discussion and are totally closed off and seemingly judgmental and condescending. I have place the scriptures before you, they do prove so, I have yet to see you yourself explain why they do not disprove. I thank you for your time.

JamesFW said:

My question would be - why does God need to predestine anything?
Will they not come to pass if He didn't predestine them?
Does God's omniscience depend upon predestination?

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We say that God, Himself, predestines everything rather than simply saying that everything is predestined because He Himself uses that terminology whenever He speaks of the predestination of a thing.

God was the only one or thing in existence when he foreknew what would surely come to past if He acted in certain ways. There is no such thing as fate or chance which could cause those destinies He foreknew to actually play out in history.

Therefore it was His action which caused what He knew as possibilities (if you will) to actually become the various destinies of His creation.

The simple and scripture only based answer to your question though is that nothing can happen that He Himself does not command or ordain to happen.

"My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." Isaiah 55:11

Speaking of His Word God says, "He is before all things, and in Him all things consist." Colossians 1:17

Acts2:38 said:

It is clear now you are not open for discussion and are totally closed off and seemingly judgmental and condescending. I have place the scriptures before you, they do prove so, I have yet to see you yourself explain why they do not disprove. I thank you for your time.

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You say that they prove something. I have simply asked you to show me how so.

I say that they do not prove that thing. One cannot prove a negative and I shouldn't have to try.

I am sorry if you consider my remarks condescending. They seem to me to be simply the truth of the matter.

If you will not continue in dialog - it is not as if it's something we haven't seen here time and time again.

When a person is asked to prove that they know what they are talking about they simply throw up their hands in mock indignation and suppose that they will be seen by others as holding the high ground.

Frankly - if I may venture my opinion - you are making the same mistake that many people make. You are ignoring what Calvinists themselves say about their beliefs and setting up straw men to kick around. I'm simply pointing out what you are doing and you obviously don't have an answer for it.

Perhaps you have gotten away in the past with misrepresenting what others teach. I just can't see why you should be allowed to do so here.

Marvin Knox said:

We say that God, Himself, predestines everything rather than simply saying that everything is predestined because He Himself uses that terminology whenever He speaks of the predestination of a thing.

God was the only one or thing in existence when he foreknew what would surely come to past if He acted in certain ways. There is no such thing as fate or chance which could cause those destinies He foreknew to actually play out in history.

Therefore it was His action which caused what He knew as possibilities (if you will) to actually become the various destinies of His creation.

The simple and scripture only based answer to your question though is that nothing can happen that He Himself does not command or ordain to happen.

"My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." Isaiah 55:11

Speaking of His Word God says, "He is before all things, and in Him all things consist." Colossians 1:17

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Thank you MK. However, I would still like to know WHY does God need to predestine everything?

JamesFW said:

Thank you MK. However, I would still like to know WHY does God need to predestine everything?

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Because He is the source of all things.

He alone has the power of being within Himself (the attribute of His "aseity").

What is said to have been predestined was so predestined before anything existed but God Himself.

The idea that we, for instance, predestined what would take place in our lives is tantamount to saying that something can come from nothing.

We could not logically create ourselves and we could not logically predestine those things which God knew were going to happen in history.

Since we are talking about about destinies, nothing can have a destiny except what God in some way provides. That is because their very being is in Him and the paradigm we exist in and make choices in have their being in Him as well.

He fills Heaven and earth.

By the way - if God had never used the term predestine - I would likely not use it either.

If God hadn't told us that He knew without doubt what would happen in the creation before there was a creation - I would not be saying that those things He so foreknew would come to past were destined to come to past.

If He hadn't stressed the aspect of His knowledge being before the world came into being - I wouldn't be adding the prefix "pre" to our destinies.

As long as I'm on a roll I'll also say that God does nothing that He doesn't know the outcome of before He does it. If there is one thing that God is not it's unwise in that way.

God simply can't help (by His very nature) knowing everything before it happens. Everything He creates then has a destiny which He pre-knew before that thing existed.

Also - God not only knew what the creation was going to do before there was one - He also knew what He was going to do.

Our lives (destinies) are inexorably linked to His innumerable actions, which in turn have resulted from His own willful choices.

The scriptures are filled with examples of the concurrent actions of God and men. But that's a deeper subject.

Marvin Knox said:

If you will not continue in dialog - it is not as if it's something we haven't seen here time and time again.

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No, I am more than willing to continue dialog, but once I am belittled and such things, then I take it that my time is done with said people.

Marvin Knox said:

You say that they prove something. I have simply asked you to show me how so.

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I have in the past posts proved such. However, forgive me for assuming you saw or followed the entire thread.

Marvin Knox said:

I'm simply pointing out what you are doing and you obviously don't have an answer for it.

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Simply and aggressively (not in a loving manner, so it seemed). Again, I did provide answers but it was directed toward others and I assumed you followed through the entire thread since you chimed in on the discussion with me.

The evidence I bring you:


Unconditional Election = God chose from eternity to save certain people, not based upon any foreseen virtue, faith, or anticipated acceptance of the Gospel. God chose to extend mercy to those He has specifically chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive wrath and damnation.

Bible Responses
Luke 13:3—“I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

John 3:16—“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

John 8:24—“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

Acts 10:34-35—“Then Peter opened his mouth and said: ‘In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.’”

Romans 2:5-11—“God…will render to each one according to his deeds: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”

1 Peter 1:17—“And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear.”

Revelation 22:17—“Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.”


Limited Atonement = Christ died only for those whom God specifically pre-decided to save—the elect—but not for any others.

Bible Responses
1 Timothy 2:3-4—“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

1 Timothy 2:5-6—“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all.”

Titus 2:11-12—“For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.”

1 John 2:2—“And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.”

John 3:17—“For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”

2 Peter 3:9—“The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”

Acts 10:34—“God shows no partiality.”

Romans 2:11—“For there is no partiality with God.”


Irresistible Grace = God’s saving grace is applied to those whom He has determined to save (the elect), overcoming their resistance to the call of the Gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved (even against his will if necessary). This purposeful influence of God’s Holy Spirit, Who creates faith within the individual, cannot be resisted.

Bible Responses
Deuteronomy 30:19—“I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life.”

Joshua 24:15—“Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Luke 7:30—“But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.”

John 12:42-43—“Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.”

Acts 7:51—“You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.”

Acts 13:46—“Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, ‘It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.’”



Perseverance of the Saints = Since God is sovereign and His will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with Himself will continue in faith until the end. They cannot be eternally lost.

Bible Responses
Galatians 5:4—“You [Christians] have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”

2 Peter 2:20-22—“For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: ‘A dog returns to his own vomit,’ and, ‘a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.’”

Hebrews 4:11—“Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.”

Hebrews 6:4-6—“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”

Hebrews 10:38-39—“‘Now the just shall live by faith; but if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.’ But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.”

James 5:19-20—“Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”

Revelation 2:5—“Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.”

Revelation 3:5—“He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.”

Revelation 22:19—“If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life.”

Acts2:38 said:

I have in the past posts proved such. However, forgive me for assuming you saw or followed the entire thread.,,,,,,,,,,,Again, I did provide answers but it was directed toward others and I assumed you followed through the entire thread since you chimed in on the discussion with me.
The evidence I bring you:
Unconditional Election........................
Bible Responses................

Limited Atonement......
Bible Responses...............

Irresistible Grace............

Bible Responses...............

Perseverance of the Saints.................

Bible Responses.....................

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I have read the entire thread.

Thank you for the scriptures.

The thread is on predestination not on unconditional election, irresistible grace, or perseverance of the saints.

It seems that I am correct about what you have been doing. You have referenced scriptures which may or may not address or refute these three things. But you have not referenced scriptures which address predestination.

It will not do to just try to show what you believe undermines 5-point Calvinism.

The so called 5-points of Calvinism do not mention predestination - the topic of this thread.

This is likely why you have been unable to connect with me on this subject or, from what I can see from the past, anyone else through the scriptures you have provided.

Obviously you aren't a 5-point Calvinist or any other kind of Calvinist. We can all see that.

Now - perhaps you could speak to the doctrine of predestination.

My apologies for my all too forceful presentation in the previous post.

Hopefully it won't seem belligerent if I tell you that you either don't understand the basis for the doctrine of predestination or you simply didn't realize what the subject of the thread was about and drifted into other areas.

By the way - the doctrine of predestination does not negate the doctrine of free will in any way. The confessions of the Calvinists make that clear in a number of places. In fact those same confessions reaffirm the honoring by God of the will of men.

I have to go now and I'll be gone for a few days to a wedding.

My apologies again for before.

Marvin Knox said:

I have read the entire thread.

Thank you for the scriptures.

The thread is on predestination not on unconditional election, irresistible grace, or perseverance of the saints.

It seems that I am correct about what you have been doing. You have referenced scriptures which may or may not address or refute these three things. But you have not referenced scriptures which address predestination.

It will not do to just try to show what you believe undermines 5-point Calvinism.

The so called 5-points of Calvinism do not mention predestination - the topic of this thread.

This is likely why you have been unable to connect with me on this subject or, from what I can see from the past, anyone else through the scriptures you have provided.

Obviously you aren't a 5-point Calvinist or any other kind of Calvinist. We can all see that.

Now - perhaps you could speak to the doctrine of predestination.

My apologies for my all too forceful presentation in the previous post.

Hopefully it won't seem belligerent if I tell you that you either don't understand the basis for the doctrine of predestination or you simply didn't realize what the subject of the thread was about and drifted into other areas.

By the way - the doctrine of predestination does not negate the doctrine of free will in any way. The confessions of the Calvinists make that clear in a number of places. In fact those same confessions reaffirm the honoring by God of the will of men.

I have to go now and I'll be gone for a few days to a wedding.

My apologies again for before.

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Thank you for your understanding.

As far as predestination, I do fully understand. It was Luther and Calvin that was spearheading such a doctrine during that reformation age.

Calvin defines predestination as “God’s eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each [person]. For … eternal life is foreordained for some, eternal damnation for others.” So predestination is an act of God’s will through which God elects or chooses those whom God calls to faith and thus to eternal life, and through which God chooses those who will not receive faith. Other theologians have seen in predestination only a positive calling to eternal life. Still others have seen it as God’s foreknowledge of who would choose faith.

In other words, the 5-points Calvinists make, Unconditional Election = God chose from eternity to save certain people, not based upon any foreseen virtue, faith, or anticipated acceptance of the Gospel. God chose to extend mercy to those He has specifically chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive wrath and damnation.

So on and so forth. It would be a mistake to say they are different.I fully understand this. The verses in scripture I provided refute that thought/idea.

I hope you are safe and have a wonderful time.

Marvin Knox said:

Because He is the source of all things.

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Okay, I think I hear you. Because God is the source of all things, He needs to predestines things.

Not a convincing argument, but if you're convinced and say so, I guess you can believe as you wish. Which begs the question, did you believe as you wish, and then God predestined it, or did you believe as you wish because God predestined it?

Marvin Knox said:

He alone has the power of being within Himself (the attribute of His "aseity").

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Okay, but is this not outside the scope of this OP, as you say election is?

Marvin Knox said:

What is said to have been predestined was so predestined before anything existed but God Himself.

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Did predestination exist before God's omniscience? Before you answer that, I guess I need to know exactly what you define as predestination.

Dictionary.com says this about predestination in theology -

1. the action of God in foreordaining from eternity whatever comes to pass.
2. the decree of God by which certain souls are foreordained to salvation.

Is this your definition also? It is defined as an action of God; do you believe this? It is also defined as a decree of God by which CERTAIN souls are foreordained (please define also) to salvation; do you believe this?

Marvin Knox said:

The idea that we, for instance, predestined what would take place in our lives is tantamount to saying that something can come from nothing.

We could not logically create ourselves and we could not logically predestine those things which God knew were going to happen in history.

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So, if I predestine for my child to eat today, and take the action to bring it to pass, that is, provide the food, are you saying this is not logical?

Marvin Knox said:

Since we are talking about about destinies, nothing can have a destiny except what God in some way provides. That is because their very being is in Him and the paradigm we exist in and make choices in have their being in Him as well.

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So I see you believe predestination are about our destinies. So, if a soul is condemned to hell, is that the destiny God predestined from eternity?

Marvin Knox said:

By the way - if God had never used the term predestine - I would likely not use it either.

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Then I am sure you don't mind if I don't use that term. Or am I under some kind of condemnation if I don't use that term? Will you look down upon someone who does not believe in and use that term?

Marvin Knox said:

If God hadn't told us that He knew without doubt what would happen in the creation before there was a creation - I would not be saying that those things He so foreknew would come to past were destined to come to past.

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Let's say God predestined, that is, decrees and takes action to fulfill this predestination, me to condemnation, is there anything I can do to reverse this predestination? Would believing in Jesus change this predestination? Or, am I just hopelessly headed to hell?

Marvin Knox said:

As long as I'm on a roll I'll also say that God does nothing that He doesn't know the outcome of before He does it. If there is one thing that God is not it's unwise in that way.

God simply can't help (by His very nature) knowing everything before it happens. Everything He creates then has a destiny which He pre-knew before that thing existed

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I guess this validates my original question - does God need predestination in order for His knowledge to come to pass?

Marvin Knox said:

Also - God not only knew what the creation was going to do before there was one - He also knew what He was going to do.

Our lives (destinies) are inexorably linked to His innumerable actions, which in turn have resulted from His own willful choices.

The scriptures are filled with examples of the concurrent actions of God and men. But that's a deeper subject.

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Thank you for your answers MK. Would it bother you if I didn't take to heart what you believe? What would happen to me if I didn't believe what you believe; what would be my predestination if I say God didn't do any such thing?

HenryM said:

I come to this sub forum now and then and want to participate, but when I go over the threads and postings, I find argumentation against predestination lacking in a way that I don't even feel compelled to reply back, let alone argue on and on.

In other words, I don't find argumentation against predestination serious enough. Quite a few times it has a flavour of tamper tantrum, or being emotionaly driven one way or another. Sometimes it's just basic, off the hip, reaction against the idea that God not only has power to control things but that He actually does control things, that it depletes my motivation to answer back.

Is this the experience of others who believe in predestination? (I stay away to label myself as calvinist because I didn't read what he wrote, and my belief in predestination didn't originate from preaching but from reading the Bible.)

Anyway, I was thinking about that. I don't know if I am having a prejudice that skews my way of seeing things, or is there really a different quality of understanding God's word and reality between those who see predestination and those who don't see it. Of course, I am talking in general terms, an average of sorts, not about each and every individual who believes for and against predestination.

Interesting starting difference is that basically no one truly believes in predestination right away. Everybody starts by believing in free will, as I did too. Then, some start seeing what looks like predestined nature of our reality being revealed in the Bible. And then, some start seeing predestination all over the Bible.

On the other hand, I would say that most who believe in free will start with free will. Some do take predestination as fact early on if they are part of the church that teaches it, but if they just take it on surface they might retreat back to what is intuitive position, a free will position, which I suspect does happen much more often than conversion of someone who has seriously studied and believed in predestination but later moved to free will.

It seems there's no way around seeing a different level of understanding of positions between the two groups. Basically all who believe in predestination have also truly believed in free will at some point, while basically all or most who believe in free will have never truly believed in predestination. Thus first can talk with more authority about free will than second can talk about predestination.

I don't know if that's the reason why, or not, but, again, I don't feel challenged to actually participate in an argument for or against predestination, because what I see that other side brings is usually rather lacking.

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Predestination is Biblical and for God to be completely fair and just He would have to foreordain for each individual almost everything that will happen. So when you go to scripture you will find a lot of foreordaining and predestination.

What you will not find is God predestining people’s autonomous free will choice to accept or reject God’s charity. They might be given/shown God’s charity, but it is still up to the individual to humbly accept or reject that charity as pure charity in the beginning at least, At some point a mature adult will never change (God would know this point when it happened), so the free will choice can be taken from him/her. Yes, God would know from the beginning of time, before any human was made who did accept or reject His charity as a historic fact (even though it is way off in our future) since God is outside of time and yet also living within our present time.

All mature adults have an objective while living here on earth that requires at least the one autonomous free will choice to accept or reject God’s charity.

Since “God is Love” would that not mean God is also the most unselfish being there could be or even imagined?

What do you see as God’s unselfish objective in creating humans in the first place?

You seemed in your original post to be asking a question and in need of an explanation.

My apologies for the long post before. I see now that you were simply looking to argue against something you did not believe to be true.

Short answers follow.

JamesFW said:

My question would be - why does God need to predestine anything?

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Because destinies only exist in the unfathomable mind of God without God speaking them into what we would call actualities.

JamesFW said:

Will they not come to pass if He didn't predestine them?

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No - they will remain only possible destinies within the mind of God.

JamesFW said:

Does God's omniscience depend upon predestination?

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No - God's predestination depends on His omniscience.

Without His innate knowledge of what will happen if He spoke - the destinies of His creation would be unknown and it would be unwise for God to so speak. If there is one thing the scriptures tell us about God it is that He works all things after the council of His wise and perfect will.
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Omniscience:
"God knows, always has known and always will know all things past, all things present and all things future - both possible and actual."

Chapter and verse on request if you really need them. But I believe you are already familiar with where to find these truths in scripture.

P.S. --- You seem to be EmSw dressed in James' clothing. Am I right about that?

Problems with arguing against predestination

My argument would not be against predestination for the bible teaches God predestined a group and men must use their free will to choose to be in that group. Therefore predestination does not preclude free will.
But my argument is against Calvinistic predestination that does create theological problems.

God's purpose in predestination is to save His people from the power of Satan and to give to Christ His brethren (family of God).
What people seem to be oblivious to, is Satan has influence, sway, power in this world to blind minds to the gospel of Christ. The whole world lies UNDER the sway of Satan.

1 John 5:19
We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

Just that one verse proves predestination of individuals true, since we who are the church, are of God, and they the others are not of God but of Satan. Because God predestined us to be conformed to Christ before our birth we then will believe and be obedient to Christ and God's message to us about the gospel, at God's perfect timing for us.

Romans 8:29
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The ugly truth is, if God predestined no one to be Christ's family, then not a single person would believe the gospel and be saved. God Himself upholds His own promises and fulfills His words. There are NONE who seek for God, all have turned away and become unprofitable to Him.
Romans 3
10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”

And the soul that sins shall die.
So without Him predestining His people whom He foreknew, no one would believe in Christ or the Father.

Ephesians 2New King James Version (NKJV)

2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Acts2:38 said:

Calvin defines predestination as “God’s eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each [person]. For … eternal life is foreordained for some, eternal damnation for others.” So predestination is an act of God’s will through which God elects or chooses those whom God calls to faith and thus to eternal life, and through which God chooses those who will not receive faith.

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Yes - Calvin was correct in this.

God not only knew what His creation would do if He did certain things. He also knew what He would do.

Election with attendant grace and the passing by of those not so elected are two of those things destined to occur.

Of course there are other destinies in history which He knew from before the foundation of the world would occur. But the destinies effected most by the fall, salvation and reprobation seem to be the ones most of interest here as seen by your use of Calvin's definition.

Acts2:38 said:

In other words, the 5-points Calvinists make, Unconditional Election = God chose from eternity to save certain people, not based upon any foreseen virtue, faith, or anticipated acceptance of the Gospel. God chose to extend mercy to those He has specifically chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive wrath and damnation.

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Those doctrines are certainly involved in the destinies of those relating to salvation.

But the OP addressed the doctrine of predestination as related to free will.

The possession of the ability to make and the actual making of choices by men and angels were also predestined to occur.

Acts2:38 said:

It would be a mistake to say they are different.I fully understand this.

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It would be a mistake to call the things related to God's actions to bring salvation to the heart of the elect and pass others by with that gift - the only things God has predestined.

It would also be a mistake to say that special grace and the withholding of such by God in any way runs counter to the doctrine of predestination or the ordination by God of all things.

Cherry picked Calvin quotes aside - the Westminster Confession of Faith makes that very clear and it is the most authoritative document concerning these doctrines.

Acts2:38 said:

It would be a mistake to say they are different.I fully understand this. The verses in scripture I provided refute that thought/idea.

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No they do not.

It is debatable whether they adequately refute even the portions of TULIP which you selected.

It seems to me to be without debate that they do not refute predestination.

The doctrine of the predestination of all that happens in history includes the so-called "free" choices made by men - both before and after the fall.

Acts2:38 said:

I hope you are safe and have a wonderful time.

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Thank you.

TheSeabass said:

.........My argument would not be against predestination for the bible teaches God predestined a group and men must use their free will to choose to be in that group. Therefore predestination does not preclude free will. But my argument is against Calvinistic predestination that does create theological problems.

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Right on.

One can argue against certain doctrines found in Calvinism (as I do with so called "limited atonement" as it is usually expounded by TULIP commentators). Of course it's debatable which of those arguments are scripturally effective.

But predestination itself is just a simple fact required to be subscribed to in order to be consistent with what the scriptures tell us about God's omniscient foreknowledge and it's relationship to His decrees concerning what will and will not occur if He created and continued to act in certain ways in the history of that creation.

All the minds of all the unbelievers, the 'others' are blinded by the devil, the god of this world.
For those who are persihing, the gospel is hidden from them.

But for believers in Christ, God has shown His light into their hearts.
That is the devil can not prevent those predestined by God from knowing the truth of the gospel and believing in it.
Paul exposes to us the difference between us, and them and the why we are different from the others who do not believe in Christ.

Satan by blinding their minds, that b-prevents the light of the Gospel of Christ from shining on those who are of Satan, v4.

God has shone His light into the hearts of His predestined elect, who are of God, v5.

About the others, the unbelievers, Christ plainly says this.
John 8
45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.
46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?
47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”


2 Corinthians 4New King James Version (NKJV)
The Light of Christ’s Gospel
1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bond servants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

And that some are blinded and some see, is the predetermined plan of God.
Unbelievers can not believe here because God has blinded and hardened them
Spiritual forces shape destinies regardless of the will of man, that can not be escaped.

Examples of unbelief in Christ being predetermined for some,
John 12
37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:

“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:

40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”

41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.