Problem with Election

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't believe God created Satan.
God is all good and in Him is no evil.
Sorry, no Bible, but it's in there.
If God is all good, He couldn't have created Satan.
If God created Satan, I can stop worshipping Him asap.

I think it's incredible how some could believe this and still worship Him. They must be far superior to myself....

HI Grace, I do not think they are worshipping Him or maybe they worship what they do not know. Guess that is possible. But I am firmly convinced no man can love God and accuse Him of evil. That is not possible. They might love the gifts he gives them. They might love that they are saved, which is one of his gifts. They might love all He does for them. But they cannot love God Himself and "have no problem" with accusing Him of evil..sometimes evil worse than the Enemy.

This is a great loss for them for He will never reveal much about Himself to them. One must be firmly convinced that God is good and righteous and just and kind and all that is right or God will not reveal the truth behind difficult passages. He will not entrust true riches to the man who has "no problem" saying God does that which anyone can see is evil.

 

[ladodgers6]

Do you believe that the NASB has more authority than the Greek text? I showed from the text that Paul is referring to two groups. So, which carries more weight, the Greek text or the translation of it? I've also shown where Paul tells us that the saints are the Jews.

Thanks for sharing. Well, me & Red believe Paul is addressing both as one. So please explain, your point, here? And sorry for the delay. I wasn't feeling well yesterday.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

And you accuse me of insulting. You ask me if I have amnesia as though something is wrong with my mind. And you think I am insulting you.

Nice twist, except the comment had a context, actually both comments have a context. I don't think you have been insulting, I know you have been repeatedly insulting every person who identifies with Calvinism in this thread, starting with the fallible man our theology is named after.

No man who tells the truth regarding his knowing God will face the warning in Proverbs 16:18 as this is the only boasting that God approves of.

I am sorry that you cannot see just how boastful and full of yourself that you are. Certainly you told not the truth to Deacon, have you any clue about him? I did not think so.

AW, best move on to less informed posters. You are not doing your soul any good by insulting me.

You really ought to take your own advice, seriously. Less informed? Because you are so informed? Of course and because I am so mentally challenged, aka "something is wrong with my mind". Twisting the night away you are.

 

[ladodgers6]

No, he really wasn't "in charge" of executions in Geneva. That was up to the city council. Calvin was not a member of the city council.

You're making up history in order to tarnish the Biblical doctrine which is called Calvinism.

Because they are against Calvinism altogether. They will disagree with everything about John Calvin.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That is a sovereign action of God. What happens during this call? Is it general or effectual?

Is everything God does sovereign to you? Is there anything He does that is not sovereign? I was wondering what is the difference for you or if there is one.

The parable of the sower (Matthew 13) is instructive in this matter. There are several soils receiving the same seed and only one takes root and produces. One might say only the elect soil received the seed.
Some might see that as being unfair.

But if one said that one would be ignoring what Jesus actually said. He talked about the plants that came up. Cannot be a plant if there is no seed.

Of course. We are 100% responsible for our actions. That is why God justly condemns us. See Romans 3
Of course God would not blame Himself. However, our fallen state does prevent us from obeying God's Holy Law.

Yes, I know of this theology. There is a problem when one considers how God sees the matter though:

Deuteronomy 30:11 "Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach." God did not think the law He gave too hard for them. I take his viewpoint.

Again, Romans 3 comes to mind refuting your claim. So does every reference to the bondage of sin leading to death (Romans 6).

That is not what Paul meant. That is what you are reading into it.

What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
We are under the bondage of love of self and darkness.

That scripture does not say what you claim. The quote is from the OT and it refers to the Jews not being better. Do you know about the verses that call some men "righteous?" They are there. Now what???

This is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. (John 3:19–20)

We are in bondage hating the supremacy (read sovereignty) of God:

That verse does not say that at all. There are men and women who never hated the sovereignty of God from childhood.

For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,... (Romans 8:6-8)

Set one's mind of the pleasures of the flesh leads to death, true. Set the mind on things of the Spirit and this leads to life. True.

That is a lot to overcome on our own power and according to our own human will.

Well, if we set our minds on things of the spirit that is different. But no one claims it is all on our own but neither does God promise to do it al.

As children of wrath who love the dark, what do you think happens when the seed of the Gospel falls on such soil. See Matthew 13 again.

Not everyone loves the dark, you know. And the seed fell on ground 50% of it, that yielded real faith and real plants. Does not give details beyond how they lost it all. I would not invent the rest.

Yet God is mercifulEphesians 2:4-7)

Well, he does not do it all and does not promise to do it all. Acknowledging his part is not saying he did it all.

Yes He makes us alive in spirit as we were dead before His calling. Once again confirming God is sovereign in this "process."

That is NOT what the verses say. No one denys that on our own we cannot save ourselves. But you insist that God is doing it all, I guess.

I know God loves His Creation. However, if everyone was "effectually" drawn then all would be universally saved.

Not according to Jesus. He said some receive the word and faith grows but is lost for the reason he suggested.

You don't need to assume, as the apostle gives us keen insight on this in Ephesians 1:

Ephesians 1: NASB
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly placesin Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Salvation is not mentioned here. We are chosen to be holy and blameless not chosen for Heaven. Salvation is not in the matter.

His Will, His Purpose, for His Glory alone.

If He chooses some for Heaven and some for Hell, that is an terrible unjustice and more shame than anything else. .

The Scriptures say He makes us alive.

For all who want it. If a man receives the word and faith grows but the pleaseures of this life or its trouble cause him to abandon the faith, then that stands. God does not rescue the man from his own choices. When the 70 walked away from the Saviour, He did not drag them back.

Therefore your view keeps us all in bondage as pointed out earlier.

Not at all. It matches "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." And there are a lot more.

You would have to substantiate here how a person without God's Holy Spirit can claim they are "good enough" to be able to see past the darkness while being spiritually dead to respond to the Gospel. It would be as if Lazarus had something to do with Jesus raising him.

You assume the details inside a man when the word is received. Jesus gave no such details. My view matches the view of Jesus. God does not make a man good enough to receive salvation. That is not a requirement at all. Repentance is a requirement.

It surely does. He makes them alive (Ephesians 2:4-7).
And we cannot even see the Kingdom of God before being born of the Spirit:

John 3:NASB
3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Well, this does not mean that unless one is born of the spirit first he cannot be born of the spirit. Again you assume you know the inside of what happens when a man repents and is saved. No writer of the Bible assumed that they knew this. "Seeing the kingdom of God" not what you are making it out to be.

7“Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8“The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Sounds like Jesus is clearly telling them they DO NOT KNOW how it works. This is the mistake you make in your postion. You think you know.

Does not seem like we control when we born again. Once again a sovereign act of God.

Jesus did not seem to think so and gave no details of God being involved at all beyond planting the seed.

Put it this way, if a man is saved from drowning by being pulled to safely, no one thinks the rescuer is sovereign. But no one thinks the man was saved by his own strength. God calls and men respond. The closest idea is being saved by someone else whereby both had a part.

But what do you think God is sovereignly doing? Why doesn't He do it for everyone? Can't you see that God manipulating the minds of mind is unjust and plain evil? The Bible says God loves all men and wants all to come to salvation. Does this threaten his sovereignity to you? He does not seem to think so.

Obviously it is as already shown above and in which I can provide more proof texts. However, I will wait for your proof texts showing mankind is sovereign in choosing God and can do so from a position of bondage.

I never said man is sovereign. But again, the Bible gives NO DETAILS beyond the parable of the different soils. I do not claim to know more than what Jesus said. He did not say the sower of the seeds was manipulating the plants. I know this is scary. But this is the only view whereby God is just and merciful.l

This is your imagination at work.

Quite the contrary. I am limiting my position to what Jesus said directly regarding the word of God and the faith that grows and what happens in men and why.

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. “All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.” (Mark 7:21-23)

I'm sure you could substantiate the claim above?

Does all of the above come out of all men all the time? Does this describe the child as well as the adults....all of them?

Why do I ask this? It is because Jesus was saying in this verse that what a man EATS does not defile him but what his heart brings him to do. You are making something different out of it than what Jesus said by taking it out of context.

Once again allow me to write Romans 3:20 over the top of this quote:

If you cannot admit the spiritual deadness of our fallen nature, then you will have difficulties explaining why Jesus took our curse on His shoulders.

Not at all. First, you do not understand my position. Did I ever say we were not sinners? I am not one of those who think man is good primarily. I do not trust myself to man because I know what it is in him. Sound familiar? Jesus did not say we are spiritually dead until God causes a man to be born again so he can be born again. Jesus never said anything beyond God calls a man. Where did he or anyone describe God tweeking a man so he can be saved?

Red, we probably agree on more than we disagree. I assume we both rejoice in the salvation we enjoy because of the shed blood of Jesus. I assume we both enjoy the Holy Spirit of God changing us, encouraging us, rebuking us, teaching us, correcting us and blessing us in many ways. I assume we are both following Jesus and want to please God with our lives. The differences we see where. I thank you for your kind post and asking me to express my views. I am deeply grateful and would that the Lord especially bless you today.

Final note: I live in a country where the people say what they think and mean what they say. We are very direct and truthful with one another and so are not easily offended. So if I say something that offends you, please feel free to call me on it because sometimes I merely state the obvious but others see that as an insult. I find that understanding God is for mature adults (grown-ups) and not children. It seems pretty obvious to me as it is sometimes rather difficult and complex. But some got offended like I was calling them children. That is not what I meant or said.

Looking forward to your response.

 

[Bobber]

But I am firmly convinced no man can love God and accuse Him of evil. That is not possible. They might love the gifts he gives them. They might love that they are saved, which is one of his gifts. They might love all He does for them. But they cannot love God Himself and "have no problem" with accusing Him of evil..sometimes evil worse than the Enemy.

I don't believe they can either...not really. Oh they may say that's nonsense, they may claim they fear God and seek to honor him and I'm sure they do in their own way. I believe however that desirability of truly wanting to associate with another IN JOY has to be directly connected to the character one perceives the other to have. Are they good, are they fair or are they just and intuitively we know what those things mean by the conscience God gave man at creation.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

This is a wrong assumption. But rather than defending that, let us look at scripture.

You mean rather than addressing that I'll post something I agree with?

Gen 18 "Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”"

Oh my you've nullified the omniscience and foreknowledge of God with one Scripture! Oh noes! That little cherry picked passage has little to do with the knowledge of God. It's called "anthropomorphism", using human language in terms humans can relate to the Divine. It is rhetorical, as if the Creator of the universe, did not already know, as if all the prophecies in Scripture are guesswork, with the possibility of not being fulfilled, such that the Almighty has to continually make revisions for His lack of knowledge...sounds more like a man learning than God.

Gen 22:12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.""

The previous response applies here as well.

These are clear descriptions of God seeking information. What can we learn from this? Do not assume you understand the foreknowledge of God such that you can build a case on it.

I assume that if God is seeking information He is not all knowing (in the Orthodox sense of omniscience), that He lacks knowledge of the future, and therefore the argument from prophecy above applies. By your understanding, the prophecies concerning Christ could have failed, and Christ Himself could have failed considering He came to fulfill them, considering His whole life and purpose was based on them, considering others around Him (even Judas) were part of fulfilling the Scriptures concerning Him.

Also, you see clearly here that God looks at man's choices and makes his own based on the man's choices. That is my position and it is born out in scripture.

You have it backwards, using eisegesis while ignoring the plain teaching of Scripture:

Exodus 6:7 ‘I will take you as My people, and I will be your God. Then you shall know that I [am] the LORD your God who brings you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

Deuteronomy 7:6 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the power to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: (13) who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will

1 Corinthians 1:27-29 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; (28) and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, (29) that no flesh should glory in His presence.

Nothing in these Scriptures suggest that God bases His choices on our choices, as though He submits His sovereign will to the wills of His creatures. As though He tied His hands and said; "you're on your own, meet me halfway and I'll see if I can give a helping hand". As if!

This was not God's opinion of man. It is, however, an example of intellectual suicide. Man is free but man is not free.

No it is the difference between the regenerated will and the unregenerate will. The unregenerate will is in bondage to sin, dead and unable to please God:

Proverbs 20:6,9 - Most men will proclaim each his own goodness, but who can find a faithful man?. . . Who can say, "I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin"?

Jeremiah 13:23 - Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.

Matthew 7:17-18 - Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

John 3:18-21 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

John 8:34 - Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin." (and we all do)

John 14:16-18 - And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Romans 8:5-8 - For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally [fleshly] minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

And I could go on and on with Scriptures, but why, considering the examples of Scriptural suicide in your post and comments.

 

[ladodgers6]

Before jumping to other passages, please explain where you believe i have Ephesians 1 wrong.

I believe that Paul was addressing everyone who had attended. Both Jews & Gentiles alike. I also believe there were unbelievers in the crowd.

What is Grace?

Grace is God’s unmerited favor to ill-deserving sinners in Jesus Christ. The presence of the risen Christ, extending God’s forgiveness and power so that God’s provision of His Son for redemption is effected through the agency of the Holy Spirit in the heart of man.

Grace is eternal (II Tim. 1:9), immutable (Rom. 11:29), sovereign (Rom. 9:11-24), effectual (Eph. 2:8-9; John 6:37, 39, 44, 63-65), and destroys all room for human boasting (I Cor. 1:29-31; 4:7). It means that the Triune God gets all the praise, honor, and glory for our salvation: The Father for planning it, the Son for purchasing it, and the Holy Spirit for applying and uniting us to it (Eph. 1:2-14). Christ is not only efficient, but is alone sufficient for salvation (Heb 9:12; 10:10) such that our own merit or works righteousness can do nothing to either attain or maintain our justification. The assistance of grace does not even depend on the humility or obedience of man ... for it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble ...as the Apostle says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10). Faith is, therefore, not a product of our unregenerated human nature (John 1:13, 6:63-65; Rom 9:16) but is exercised as the infallible result of the work of the Holy Spirit opening our eyes and ears to the beauty of the gospel, turning our heart of stone to a heart of flesh and uniting us to Christ.
Monergism.com

There is no human boasting or claims we can make it in earning or meriting it. And this pertains to both Jew & Gentile alike.

Romans 3:21 For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

By Grace Through Faith​

1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4Butc God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

One in Christ​

11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Paul is making it clear that there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fallen short. Paul says we are all in the same boat.

Hope this helps. If I come off too direct, please let me know. I am dealing with a lot of pain, so please bear with me. I apologize in advance if I do.

God Bless!

In Christ, Our Justification, Our Sanctification, and Our Redemption 1 Cor. 1:30

 

[ladodgers6]

Sure! It's first mentioned in Genesis and ends in Revelation.

Can you expound further for me?

 

[sdowney717]

DD and AW, you completely misunderstand me and I notice that you refuse to deal with the scriptures that show God made choices that clearly indicate that he was looking for information in time. You attack me instead of dealing with these scriptures. Too bad because this is how adults learn. (Not an insult but stating a fact...this is how ALL adults learn.) One exchanges information and views with other adults. This is how I have also learned a lot on discussion sites, by considering those whose opinions are different than mine. But OK. We can move on. I will leave you two alone. I can only say you completely mistake my posts and I was at a loss as to where you saw the insult until you explained it DD and I thank you for doing so. I did not think saying that matters of understanding God is for adults is a personal insult. I just think I was saying an obvious truth.

AW, you are now on ignore so we can both move on. The more lofty the name, the less the poster lives up to it is my experience. AW, adieu.

An insane heresy, 'God looking for information from the timeline' of man.
You will know them by their fruit (of the lips), out of the heart the mouth speaks.
If they speak not according to this word (scripture), there is no light in them.

If not light then darkness, if you are not light in the Lord, you are captured by the devil to do his bidding.
The only hope for such an opponent is that perhaps God will grant them mercy to know the truth.

The other problem is, and I see it a lot on these forums, once scriptures are twisted, the one doing that, begins to distort all the other scriptures too.

Another thing I have noticed, arguing over words does no good. Few change their mind and actually say so on these forums. People are locked into their theology.

 

[ladodgers6]

For more confirmation, faith comes through HIM alone.
Every pure and perfect gift comes down from the Father.
Acts 3:16
And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

James 1:16-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

Share this passage, in John 6:45 Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

 

[GodsGrace101]

An insane heresy, 'God looking for information from the timeline' of man.
You will know them by their fruit (of the lips), out of the heart the mouth speaks.
If they speak not according to this word (scripture), there is no light in them.

If not light then darkness, if you are not light in the Lord, you are captured by the devil to do his bidding.
The only hope for such an opponent is that perhaps God will grant them mercy to know the truth.

The other problem is, and I see it a lot on these forums, once scriptures are twisted, the one doing that, begins to distort all the other scriptures too.

S, not home and can't really post,,,but with a god like the one you believe in, who needs the devil????
At least we k ow the devil is evil, otoh, you say God is a loving and merciful god and yet He creates some for eternal torment!
At least the devil doesn't make believe he's loving toward humans.

 

[OSAS 101]

S, not home and can't really post,,,but with a god like the one you believe in, who needs the devil????
At least we k ow the devil is evil, otoh, you say God is a loving and merciful god and yet He creates some for eternal torment!
At least the devil doesn't make believe he's loving toward humans.

He doesn't?
Appearing as an angel of light?

 

[sdowney717]

Share this passage, in John 6:45 Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Yes, not everyone has the ears to hear the Father. God must give you ears to hear, a mind to understand, and eyes that see, or you will remain blinded with a veil over your heart. That veil is taken away in Christ.
But it seems to me only partially for some, there is still lesser and greater obscurity of vision.
When Jesus talked with His disciples and they did not understand, He would say of them are you hardened? Hardening is by degrees.

Deuteronomy 29:1-5 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Covenant Renewed in Moab
29 These are the words of the covenant which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant which He made with them in Horeb.

2 Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land— 3 the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders. 4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to [a]perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day. 5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness. Your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandals have not worn out on your feet.

 

[sdowney717]

Mark 6:52
For they had not understood about the loaves, because their heart was hardened.
Mark 8:17
But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “Why do you reason because you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive nor understand? Is your heart still hardened?
John 12:40
“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.”
Acts 19:9
But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.
Romans 9:18
Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

 

[ladodgers6]

Yes, not everyone has the ears to hear the Father. God must give you ears to hear, a mind to understand, and eyes that see, or you will remain blinded with a veil over your heart. That veil is taken away in Christ.
But it seems to me only partially for some, there is still lesser and greater obscurity of vision.
When Jesus talked with His disciples and they did not understand, He would say of them are you hardened? Hardening is by degrees.

Deuteronomy 29:1-5 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Covenant Renewed in Moab
29 These are the words of the covenant which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant which He made with them in Horeb.

2 Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land— 3 the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders. 4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to [a]perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day. 5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness. Your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandals have not worn out on your feet.

Amen! Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9).

 

[ladodgers6]

For the bible itself's explanation on election go to : Romans 9(11-23)

Election is the unchangeable purpose of God, whereby, before the foundation of the world, He has out of mere grace, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His own will, chosen from the whole human race, which had fallen through their own fault from the primitive state of rectitude into sin and destruction, persons to redemption in Christ, whom He from eternity appointed the Mediator and Head of the elect and the foundation of salvation. This elect church, though by nature neither better nor more deserving than others, but with them involved in one common misery, God has decreed to give to Christ to be saved by Him, and effectually to call and draw them to His communion by His Word and Spirit; to bestow upon them true faith, justification, and sanctification; and having powerfully preserved them in the fellowship of His son, finally to glorify them for the demonstration of His mercy, and for the praise of the riches of His glorious grace; as it is written "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." (Eph 1:4-6). And elsewhere: "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Rom 8:30).
Canons of Dort (1.7)

 

[ladodgers6]

S, not home and can't really post,,,but with a god like the one you believe in, who needs the devil????
At least we k ow the devil is evil, otoh, you say God is a loving and merciful god and yet He creates some for eternal torment!
At least the devil doesn't make believe he's loving toward humans.

This is a common mistake people make about God's Election. I will share more later.

 

[GodsGrace101]

He doesn't?
Appearing as an angel of light?

Can't reply right now...

 

[98cwitr]

What do you think this is supposed to say? Does she do this the whole life of the child including when he is 40 and she is 70? What about other choices she thinks will do him harm? Does she lock him so he never makes a false choice?

No, but a mother will guide her child, even as an adult.

What you have done is pick one example of a mother and a very small child and think the child never grows up and takes responsiblity for his life and choices but the loving mother is preventing the child from making any and all mistakes. I have heard grown children talk about mothers like that and it was anything but positive.

Don't you think to an all knowing God we are merely small infants ourselves?

Now 1 Cor 13 is directed at who? God? Is Paul giving God a standard for behaviour? If not who? Man? Hummm, that fits the teaching of God. Because God toasted a few cities in his day. Promises to punish the guilty too when they stand before him and otherwise. So God is certainly keeping a record of wrongs by which unbelievers will be judged at least. Do you need a scripture for that?

Exactly proving my point. If God is Love, and Paul gives us that definition, then how you can say that man's love cannot keep a record of wrongs, but God's love can? How does that make sense? If God keeps a record of your wrongs and chooses not to protect you, how can you say He loves you? Does the mother in my analogy love her child more than God loves his children?

On the flip side, God's love for His children is so profound, so powerful, so eternal that He always protects, always trusts, and the elect's sins are completely and forever blotted out, through both His Promise and His Son, Jesus.

Now I can find that free will and a loving God are the only perfectly fitting position. No free will is not loving. It is a prison. You can think all men are like little children if you want. YOu can think that God is making sure none of us hurt ourselves like the mother you describe if you want. But don't look into the news of the world. And as a matter of fact, better live alone and be self-employed. Avoid cars and street and public transportation. In face, better stay home all the time and you will miss all the times people are hurt or killed by accident where God does not "save them" like the senerio you suggest.

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil! Why do you fear? No one can resist God's Will!

Now if you think there is no God because you realize that they things do happen, you need to read about the ways of God and how he set up the world. It involved free will and men being free to obey Him and love others or not. Makes perfect sense and combines free will and a very loving God. No problem at all and frankly, it is the only position that perfectly combines both.

There is a God. Yahweh, who sent His Son, Jesus to die and be resurrected for the sin's of the elect, whom where secured and purchased before the foundation of the world. All things to the glory of the Father.

Or do you believe God's just up there, crying over all the pain and suffering in the world, powerless to do anything about it? A loving God would do everything in His power to ensure those objects of His love are always protected, even from themselves.